Can someone please help me?!

[Shoemaker]

I've posted this question a few times before and still haven't gotten a solid response to what is going on here.

I've been brewing beer for almost a year now. I do all grain. I've made some great batches, but some, especially recently, I've had some major problems.

The problem is that there's a similiar off taste/smell in some of these brews. Its the same smell/taste so obviously the same problem. The only thing that comes to mind is permanent marker when I smell it and its usually cloudy in appearance. I think this is phenols but I don't know.

This problem comes up whether the brew is a lager or ale, liquid yeast or dry, in glass or plastic carboy, extract or all grain, however, this does seem to happen to my lighter beers (pale ales, helles, pilsners). I always let my brews sit for a month in primary.

I would really appreciate any help. This is so frustrating I just might quit homebrewing because I'm so sick of dumping beer and wasting time/money. Please help!

 

[snevey]

What is your water source? It sounds like it's the only common variable (besides hardware). I'd guess you are cleaning and sanitizing between batches. I could see one bad batch from not sanitizing properly, but not every darn one.

 

[snevey]

If it's well water, maybe you have some kind of bacteria, such as chloroform...

 

[Bacchus]

If it's well water, maybe you have some kind of bacteria, such as chloroform...

I'm don't know of many bacteria that could survive a one hour boil.

 

[snevey]

I'm don't know of many bacteria that could survive a one hour boil.

While this is true, any off flavors created by the bacteria and/or boiling it would still be in the water. I would eliminate my water by using spring water. Not distilled water.

 

[Toga]

Could be the plastic tubing you are transferring with or bottling with or a scratch in your fermentation bucket if using a bucket. Seem to be common problem areas from other post I have read here. New bucket and or tubes, bottling wand, or racking cane. All would be cheap to replace.

 

[Shoemaker]

I do have well water but its clean. And some batches turn out great while others don't. I thought maybe this is from my all grain technique but this has happened with extract brews too.

I clean and santize everything.

 

[Shoemaker]

No, because the smell/taste is apparant when I take a gravity reading before transferring.

 

[olllllo]

Fusel Alcohol - A group of higher molecular weight alcohols that esterify under normal conditions. When present after fermentation, fusels have sharp solvent-like flavors and are thought to be partly responsible for hangovers

source howtobrew.com

Typically caused by fermenting too hot.

 

[homebrewer_99]

source howtobrew.com

Typically caused by fermenting too hot.

Beat me to it...

 

[Dynachrome]

So far I've been lucky with this, no off flavors. I use simple stainless steel stock pots with lids. I also use chlorine for sterilizing, but try to make sure the equipment is dry before using it to avoid off flavors from the chlorine.

What are your materials in your "hardware"?

I have been lucky enough to have a cool closet on the north side of the house fo fermenting.

 

[BigB]

What are you using to sanitize with? Bleach based sanitizers will react with phenols in the wort and create some really off smelling and tasting chlorophenols. Even if you are not using a bleach based sanitizer, switch to something different and try that.

 

[Shoemaker]

I've been using oxyclean and starsan to santize. No way I'm fermenting too hot, if anything, it may be a little cool sometimes, like in the low 60s. Not sure how my equipment could be involved, being that some batches are great and others not.

 

[BigB]

The starsan certainly isn't bleach based... But the oxyclean...Are you sure its oxyclean free. Regular oxyclean has perfumes and other chemicals.

 

[Shoemaker]

The starsan certainly isn't bleach based... But the oxyclean...Are you sure its oxyclean free. Regular oxyclean has perfumes and other chemicals.

Yup. Oxyclean free. And I rinse my carboys out a million times with water before I santize with star san.

 

[BigB]

The only other thoughts I have would be possibly overcleaning an aluminum brew pot, or have chips or rust on a steel or ceramic coated pot, or just excessively high levels of iron in your well water. I guess if your pots are fine, then try brewing a beer using bottled water from the grocery store. You can get 1 gallon jugs pretty cheap.

 

[JonK331]

Did you always have this problem and maybe not notice it? Could be your water??? What kind of base malt are you using? How long is your boil? Do you bottle or keg? Maybe try PBW instead of Oxyclean? I know how frustrating it is to be in that position. Give us some more detail and maybe we can help you get to the bottom of it.

 

[Shoemaker]

No, I don't always have this problem. Like I said, some beers turn out fantastic. I just made a winter warmer that was top notch. But others....its almost like they taste like a hefeweizen, which from what I gathered is from phenols. I boil for an hour and like I said, bottling or kegging don't matter because the smell is apparant before I do that.

I do want to emphasize that this usually happens to my light colored brews. Any suggestions?

 

[ChshreCat]

Wild yeasts can impart ethyl acetate in the brew, which I guess could be described as "magic marker" smell. Pretty much the same thing you get from fermenting too high. I'd suspect any plastics you use between the boil and fermenter (including the fermenter itself).

 

[Shoemaker]

Could it be that I have hard water and this is causing it? I saw a previous post about having problems with light colored beers.

 

[amh0001]

Yeah, I would agree with the posts above. If you want better replies we are going to need more info on your process. I know it might seem like a lot, but write out your entire process of brewing. It will help us point out any ideas that might point towards your problem.

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

I think it could be water chemistry, especially since it doesn't seem to happen with darker beers.

Can you try buying some spring water, make a lighter colored beer, and see if the problem goes away?

 

[Shoemaker]

I think it could be water chemistry, especially since it doesn't seem to happen with darker beers.

Can you try buying some spring water, make a lighter colored beer, and see if the problem goes away?

I'm going to make a helles today and thats exactly what I'm going to do. Hopefully it works!

 

[legaleagle]

After reading thru this thread, 2 other things come to mind not yet discussed: your sparge. Specifically, how careful are you about keeping your sparge water from being too hot and are you ending your sparge when the gravity of the runnings starts getting low? Sparge water too hot and collecting extremely low gravity runnings have been discussed by the "experts" as causing the type of off flavors you seem to be describing (which would be more pronounced in lighter beers).

Try using geletin to clear your beer (do a search on this forum as there is tons of info on how to use it and how it works - and indeed it works!). This stuff physically drops everything out of your beer (except chill haze) and may potentially cure this problem if the cause is non-water or non-infection related.

 

[Shoemaker]

After reading thru this thread, 2 other things come to mind not yet discussed: your sparge. Specifically, how careful are you about keeping your sparge water from being too hot and are you ending your sparge when the gravity of the runnings starts getting low? Sparge water too hot and collecting extremely low gravity runnings have been discussed by the "experts" as causing the type of off flavors you seem to be describing (which would be more pronounced in lighter beers).

Try using geletin to clear your beer (do a search on this forum as there is tons of info on how to use it and how it works - and indeed it works!). This stuff physically drops everything out of your beer (except chill haze) and may potentially cure this problem if the cause is non-water or non-infection related.

About the sparge being too hot, this could be a problem. Please tell me your all grain process because I think sometimes I get my mash too hot. What do you mean about ending my sparge when the gravity is low? For my second runnings, I always calculate the amount of sparge water I need for my boil and then add it in, and completely drain it. Could this be a problem?

 

[legaleagle]

I keep my sparge water at 180 degrees and I run it off fairlyy slow (an hour or so to collect 12 gallons). With my system, by trial and error I know that as long as I use a grain bill of 16 or more pounds, my final runnings to reach 12 gallons will stay above 1.010 gravity. I am reaching into memory here, but I think that is the point at which the experts say you start leaching tannins and strong tasting stuff out of the grain. I do a fly (or continuous light water flow) sparge (others use batch sparging with good results as well). I do a single infusion mash, usually at 150-152 degrees for the entire conversion, but if I want more body for a particular beer I may step up to 156-158 after about half hour or so passes. Unless you are scorching the mash with too much heat to try and stay within the 150-160 degree range in cold weather, I don't think your problem is at the mashing level. I am skeptical about water being the issue because you say that some of your beers come out ok - if it was your water you'd have the same result in every batch I would think.

One thing though is that I never completely drain the mash to collect the runnings because of the risk of leaching harsh flavors out of the grains. I fly sparge with continuous water stream until I collect all 12 gallons. It just so happens that my system will keep me above the 1.010 mark by the time I reach 12 gallons as long as I use a certain amount of grain. Your system may for whatever reason require you to stop the runnings at 1.010 before you collect all of the wort you desire. If that is the case then you can try to tweak some things (ie, slow down the sparge, increase your mash temp a bit to create a bigger beer and then add water to get the full volume you want, etc.)

Having said all of that, if I were you I would at least try the geletin. It is just a couple of bucks for a box of 4 packets from the grocery store, is really, really easy to use, and, at least as I understand it, clears your beer of several kinds of off-flavor producing stuff (including yeast so you don't want to use too much if you prime with sugar).

Try tweaking your sparge as discussed and adding gelatin prior to kegging or bottling and see if that helps.

 

[legaleagle]

For more info, read this brewwiki explaining the different sparging methods and their pros/cons: http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Sparging

 

[Dynachrome]

Any progress udate?

 

[webnmar]

I was wondering if maybe Shoemaker keeps the lid on his boil kettle the times he gets off-flavors. Not sure it causes the same off-flavors, but worth bringing up since I have read this can be an issue too.

 

[danweasel]

I had a very similar (I think) smell/taste in my beer as well. I learned to keep the top of the boiling pot off and start cold crashing and my beer is tasting much better.

 

[Shoemaker]

Any progress udate?

Well I brewed a helles with bottled water. I'm about to lager it and I took a taste. It is fantastic. Spot on with taste, smell, look.

This is the first time I've brewed a light lager that actually turned out right, but then again, I made sure it fermented at 55 degrees, as opposed to before where I wasn't paying attention to the temp. But then again I have only had this problem with light beers, as I said before.

And no, I do not boil with the lid on.

Another question, how much wort do you guys collect before you start boiling? I've been collecting 13 gallons for a 10 gallon batch. More or less end up with 10 gallons.

 

[Dave11980]

I don't think it could be from anything in the mashing process since you said it happened on some extract brews too. The water does seem to be the only common thread that I can identify and now spring water has been proven to be good. I would add this to your logging and try several with spring water. If you get no off flavors repeat a recipe changing only the water back to your well. If you get a bad batch that pretty well proves it out. Get a couple 5 gallon plastic jugs from local grocery store or walmart, you can refill them for pennies on the dollar of what you'd pay to buy water already bottled. Save you some dough if you're going to do this full time now.

 

[Dynachrome]

You could get some from a fellow brewer you know that has municipal water and doesn't have issues with his (her?) water too.