Can i do a decoction and protien rest for fully modified malts?

[cshulha]

Hi everyone i have a question on decoction mashing and protien rests. If i am using weyerman pilsner malt can i do a protient rest at 54c and raise it to 65c sac rest through a decoction. John palmer says a protien rest for modified malts is bad. However other say a protien test for modified malts is ok at 54c or 133f. A lower temp protien rest ia bad for modified malts. Can someone clear this up? I would appreciate it.

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

Technically you can do whatever you want.

 

[BigEd]

Hi everyone i have a question on decoction mashing and protien rests. If i am using weyerman pilsner malt can i do a protient rest at 54c and raise it to 65c sac rest through a decoction. John palmer says a protien rest for modified malts is bad. However other say a protien test for modified malts is ok at 54c or 133f. A lower temp protien rest ia bad for modified malts. Can someone clear this up? I would appreciate it.

Yes. Start your first rest at 53-56C and keep it to about 20 minutes time. "Protein rest" is a bit of an oversimplification, the lower temperature rests in the 45-50C range were used with older, less modified malts which contained much larger molecular protein fractions than modern malt. Exposing modern, highly modified malts to long times at these lower temperatures can cause problems as the mashing actions can start breaking down what large protein chains remain, negatively affecting the beer's body and hop profile.

By starting the mash at the higher temperature range the potential negative effects of a traditional decoction profile on moderns malts can be significantly reduced as the proteolytic exzyme action is limited and you are crossing the line into the lower end of the saccharification rest stage.

 

[johnwpowell]

You could but is it really doing anything

 

[cshulha]

Thanks biged. So hold it at 55c for 20mins and do your firsch decoction taki g 1/3 of the mash raising it to 65c for 20mins then bool for 15. Add the decoction back to the main mash to raise it from 55c to 65c and then sac rest for rest of the mash. Does that sound right biged?

 

[Curtis2010]

Good section in Palmer's "How to Brew" on this and other mashing techniques. His bottom line is that with well modified grains most of these techniques are unecessary.

 

[BigEd]

Thanks biged. So hold it at 55c for 20mins and do your firsch decoction taki g 1/3 of the mash raising it to 65c for 20mins then bool for 15. Add the decoction back to the main mash to raise it from 55c to 65c and then sac rest for rest of the mash. Does that sound right biged?

Yes, that is the basics. You can do the first pull as soon as the mash-in is completed and the temp has stabilized. You can also sneak in another decoction step to give the benefit of a second boil by going from saccharification to mash-out.

 

[doug293cz]

Maybe you should tell us what you are trying to accomplish by doing a protein rest and/or decoction mash? When you phrase a question as: "will it hurt anything if I do this?" it sounds like you don't have a specific reason for doing it. Is there an issue with your beers that you are trying to fix? If so, why do you think it has to do with your protein profile? The answers to these questions could lead to you getting more helpful answers from other HBT members. Or, are you just looking to try techniques that you haven't used before?

Brew on

 

[triethylborane]

Maybe you should tell us what you are trying to accomplish by doing a protein rest and/or decoction mash? When you phrase a question as: "will it hurt anything if I do this?" it sounds like you don't have a specific reason for doing it.
Brew on

Agree. I love decoction mashing my hefes and some lagers, but there is a purpose.

 

[cshulha]

Agree. I love decoction mashing my hefes and some lagers, but there is a purpose.

The purpose is get a more malt melanoidin flavor out of the beer. The longer protein rest is to get more body out of the beer.

 

[cshulha]

basicly i want some 'Maillard reactions"

 

[MSK_Chess]

This is the crux of the matter. We are so conditioned into thinking in purely scientific terms that we forget that beer is all about flavour. Technically as is mentioned we do not need to do a decoction mash or even a protien rest but as brukaiser states in his excellent video series many German brewers still do it because it imparts a more robust flavour. He even demonstrated an acid rest! Gordon Strong the fabled recipe builder also states that we make great leaps forward when we start thinking in terms of flavour and how me might achieve those desired flavours. Making beer is like playing chess, its not purely a science but also relies on imagination and some creativity

You wanna do a decoction and a protein rest for a more robust flavour, brew on!

 

[triethylborane]

The purpose is get a more malt melanoidin flavor out of the beer. The longer protein rest is to get more body out of the beer.

Yes, however, with wheat there is another purpose, to break down long gluten protein chains.

 

[Seattle2k]

BYO and morebeer have some good articles related to this, for anyone interested in reading further:

Decoction Mashing: Techniques
https://byo.com/bock/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques

Kettle Reactions - The Science of The Boil
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_to_boil_wort

 

[doug293cz]

basicly i want some 'Maillard reactions"

Yes, a decoction should get you more Maillard reactions. So, decoct away.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, however, with wheat there is another purpose, to break down long gluten protein chains.

OP didn't mention anything about wheat, only pils malt. But yeah, if you have excess protein in the grain bill, a protein rest can mitigate that.

Brew on

 

[triethylborane]

OP didn't mention anything about wheat, only pils malt. But yeah, if you have excess protein in the grain bill, a protein rest can mitigate that.

Brew on

I mentioned hefes.