CAMRA / "Real" Ale

[Brewpastor]

The word Zealot comes to mind. I think it is useful to have people who are passionate about issues and concerns, but there is a point where passion turns unreasonable. I appreciate the work CAMRA has done to save cask conditioned ale. I love the flavor and character of a beer served in this style. I also think it is important that there are folks out there who care about tradition and seek to preserve it, even if they can be a bit snobbish. It is a bit like historical committees that review building plans in historic districts. They can be a real pain and need checks and balances, but I am glad there are some places the still have character.

I am also glad that I have the freedom to brew whatever, however I wish. And I don't really care if other people approve of it or not. I serve lager through my beer engines and pale ale through my stout handle and if somebody doesn't like it, tough. They can get their own beer.

But I find that Cask Conditioned ale, served at cellar temperature is a taste treat.

One piece of information around CAMRA that I find interesting is their whole debate and dealing with a device called a cask breather. This is a valve that lets a blanket of CO2 at atmopheric pressure to be kept in a cask as it is being served. They have looked down their noses at these devices for years. They allow them in pubs that don't move through product quickly, but it is definately a red headed step child kind of tolerance. Well, CAMRA has done blind tastings of ale served both with and without these breathers and nobody has been able to tell the difference. But they still look down their nose at them and those who use them. I personally love mine and it seems foolish and wasteful to go without. But that is just my choice and my beer.

 

[Todd]

GUYS I finally tried my first one. It was a stout and I have to say it was pretty good. I'm not sure that I would say it was better than a normal style but it was good. Also tried an IPA and I did not like that nearly as much.

 

[sonvolt]

How can you not like an organization that creates cartoon characters to represent beer styles!! This was seriously the campaign for certain styles . . . to create cartoon characters!!!! Doesn't seem too snobbish to me!

My personal favorite is "Stout."

 

[Caplan]

The way some of you have been posting on here you'd think CAMRA came round and spat in your homebrew!

CAMRA come across all 'high and mighty beer snobs' (which many of them are i'm sure) but the simple point is without them they'd be a lot less of the simple little British Pubs selling decent local beer and a lot more small independant breweries in the UK would have closed and been lost forever.

The Big Breweries (who own most British Pubs) don't care about anything other than making money - and why should they with shareholders to answer to? They give people what they want:-
Selling the latest fashionable commercial Lager (Which of course isn't British but is now brewed in a factory in the UK under licence from whoever owns the trade name) or other equally bland beers whilst serving indifferent precooked and re-microwaved food as 'Traditional Home Cooked Grub/fayre' in a 'false movie set' bookshelves and fly fishing decor Pub. That's all well and good - They make money. If it takes your fancy go ahead and spend your cash. CAMRA isn't stopping you.

However if you ever want to go to a decent UK boozer with a few quality house beers on tap all the time, maybe 2 or 3 Guest ales and not as much BS remember to thank CAMRA, chances are the Pub is already in their 'Good Pub' guide!

 

[Brewpastor]

The Good Pub guide is worth its weight in ale if you are ever on that side of the pond and I give CAMRA full marks for their work in the name of great beer! Too bad somebody didn't do the same around here before BMC took over!

 

[david_42]

The Second Annual Oregon Cask Beer Festival is November 17 to 19th at Rose and Raindrop in Portland.

 

[Fiery Sword]

The way some of you have been posting on here you'd think CAMRA came round and spat in your homebrew!

Okokok I'll be honest - The day I posted the thread I got mugged in a dark alley. All I saw from my spot in the bloody pool on the ground as they slithered away was that logo.....that name.

"CAMRA"

Damn street tuffs.

 

[Jack]

I have a huge amount of respect for CAMRA and its work. They pretty much single-handedly revived good tasting beer in the United Kingdom in the 70s, which sparked the craft beer and homebrewing movements in the US. They fight to keep our Yankee culture out of their public houses, which are becoming increasingly rare.

CAMRA has very little to do with homebrewing. Their primary focus is on issues such as:
1. preserving good British beer against BMC
2. preserving traditional pubs
3. preserving the "honest pint" (many bars pour less than a pint of beer)
4. increasing awareness of beer and its traditions
5. protecting the small brewers against the big brewers

... And frankly, who can argue against that?

I've always felt that forced carbonation was cheating. It makes me think of the plonk sparkling wines that you find in the grocery store versus real wines from the Champagne region of France. Forced carbonation versus the methode champagnoise? It's a pretty obvious decision in my mind.

I maintain that even if there's absolutely no taste or visual difference, I'd rather drink a beer that conditioned naturally to one that wasn't. Think about it. If someone came out with tablets that you just had to drop in sterilized water and bottle, and the end product looked and tasted exactly like traditional beer, would you drink this artificially flavored beer or would you drink a beer that was actually fermented?

And... Extract brewing is still brewing. Some of the brewing was just done by someone else. (I'm an extract brewer.)

 

[Fiery Sword]

I've always felt that forced carbonation was cheating.

Are hop pellets cheating? Lab-prepared yeast cultures? Commercial sanitizers?

Again, I don't view updates in technology as bad. I think they are great. I think that is more what my (i.e. American) culture IS. Out tradition is to improve and update old-world methods, and we are doing a pretty damn good job at it. I didn't cry when I threw out the foil-wrapped bunny ears on the TV, and I won't cry when my laundry folds itself in the dryer. I like progress, I like improving on the last generations traditions. And I'm not going to feel bad about it, or fold to traditionalists who have a problem with "their" methods being bastardized. Force carbonation, while no substiture to aging, is not cheating.

I'm definitely not going to get into CAMRA-bashing from the perspective of what they've done historicaly in the UK, the scope of the criticism was much more narrow than that. However, this common thread of "keeping the Yanks out of their bars" is pathetic! How about, "forcing their countrymen to only drink old fashoined forms of beer", "forcing Real Englishmen to only drink Real Old Englishman products", or "Make a product that people (general public) likes more than BMC!!!!"

I'm not defending BMC, but why do people get so bent out of shape about it? The majority of beer drinkers, like them or not, think the stuff is great. Why let this rain on your parade? If my local bar gets rid of their microbrew (REAL BEER!!!! ) taps, then I can go somewhere else! Why go all militant on them and blame BMC??? Blame the people drinking it!!!!

 

[dougjones31]

I'm not defending BMC, but why do people get so bent out of shape about it? The majority of beer drinkers, like them or not, think the stuff is great. Why let this rain on your parade? If my local bar gets rid of their microbrew (REAL BEER!!!! ) taps, then I can go somewhere else! Why go all militant on them and blame BMC??? Blame the people drinking it!!!!

I have come to the conclusion that this country is full of idiots anyway, and nothing surprises me anymore. Tasteless idiots... I tell ya!

 

[Brewpastor]

CAUTION: WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY PERSONAL RANT AGAINST BMC, IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED JUST KEEPING MOVING, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

I talk down BMC every chance I get because BMC intentionally makes it hard for smaller guys to get a fair whack at the market. I know more then a few micros who have been dumped by distributors and had their tap slots pulled because BMC has told the distributor or retailer they will not tolerate them giving attention to other accounts. They use Wallyworld tactics to push out competion and claim shelf space. I have personal stories about these practices and some are not legal, but who has the money for a legal battle against BMC? You can call it market reality and say that is the reality of free enterprise, but I personally am not going to support them, nor am I going to sing their praise. I will take every opportunity to show them to be the pigs they are. And besides, in my opinion their beer tastes horrible, and just because a bunch of people drink it does not make it better. Lots of people eat McDonalds, but that doesn't make it good food.

OK, RANT COMPLETE, YOU CAN GO BACK TO WHATEVER YOU WERE DOING.

 

[olllllo]

BMC intentionally makes it hard for smaller guys to get a fair whack at the market.

Believe it or not this is true also of Hallmark, the warn and fuzzy card people.

 

[Brewpastor]

I guess it is true of lots of businesses and we get to choose if we support them or not.

 

[Rhoobarb]

Anyone who says CAMRA is useless or doesn't matter is probably too young to remember how really awful the state of beer was in the 1970s - when CAMRA came into existence! Particularly here in America. Well, I remember!

All the small guys we're being gobbled up or run into the ground by BMC. American beers were all becoming the same. Schlitz went from being decent to downright undrinkable. Old brands here in the Midwest like Edelweiss, Schoenhofen, Fox Deluxe, Keeley, Canadian Ace and Meister Brau had fallen one by one. Peter Hand, the last brewery in Chicago at the time, closed in 1978.

And the same sort of homogenous transformation was taking place across the pond. The first time I attempted homebrewing back in 1978, I became interested in better beers and they all seemed to come from outside the US, except for the truly oddballs of the day, like Anchor or Point, Huber and Leinenkugel here in the Midwest! That’s also the first time I heard about CAMRA. I applauded what they were trying to do and kept an eye on their progress. At the time I wished we had such an organization here.

Thank God the craft brewing movement took hold here in the US!

 

[Carne de Perro]

It seems to me that the whole "Real Ale" debate is culturally centered. As homebrewers when we hear "ale" we think of a top fermented beer brewed at relatively warm temperatures. Remember though (and any Brits out there can correct me if I'm wrong) that the word "ale" is, in itself, British and the term is largely unregulated. It's similar to the problem the Trappist monks had in the 20th century with non-Trappist breweries advertising their beers as Trappist. Combine that with an influx of lagers, fruity drinks, and whatnot and it's inevitable that there will be a counter-modern movement. I didn't see the site as rude, just determined. You have to differentiate yourself from other products or you cease to exist. As for denigrating other beers...well if B, M, and C can see fit to mock each other and each talk about how they taste better than the other two, well then I can say that MY brew tastes better than theirs, can't I?

 

[Torchiest]

I work at a bar, and I remember years ago we only had Miller Lite and Coors Light on draft, both of which we got from the same distributor. We decided we needed to get Bud Light on draft as well, and the distributor threw a fit! Well, we told them deal, because we're the customer and we're in charge of what we put on tap. They had no choice but to accept that. I've been in charge of what goes on our draft wall (we have ~50 taps) for years now, and I've made a huge effort to get as many local brews on tap as possible. We now have ten Texas brews on draft and seven in bottles. I'm very proud of that, and I'm still working on adding at least one more Texas brewery that I'm aware of to our selection. It is possible to get the good stuff in there, but we just have to accept that there are millions of people that just want a cheap buzz.

 

[Rocket]

I'm not going to knock CAMRA for what they are trying to do. In fact, the only reason I was able to enjoy Caledonian Ale in Scotland a few years ago is probably because of CAMRA. Personally I like the real ale style. Of course, I like to brew a different beer every time. Variety is the spice of life.

Anyway...

...

.... And even with that permit, you can't sell your beer; you have to get a distributor to do it for you. I don't think that makes any sense. ...

I'm not sure, but I think a lot of states are like this. The state gets taxes at distribution and the again at retail along with the local municipality. At least that's the way it is here in Alabama. Don't even get me started about trying to open a microbrew. Not to mention that beers in this state cannot be over 5.9%ABV and have to be in containers smaller than 1 US pint. Hopefully that will change soon (plug: http://www.freethehops.org/index.php).

... The way we talk around here you'd think we have a tactical strike force devoted to slapping the Bud Lites our of peoples hands at Spring Break.
...

LMAO oh man, that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. I'll volunteer to be the point man for the first squad formed.

I work at a bar, ...

Seabrook... hey that's down next to Clear Lake. I thought it sounded familiar. What bar? I used to visit Houston on a regular basis (JSC, though I'm not in that business anymore.... well, not exactly anyway). I used to go to BJ's over on Bay Area every time I had a trip there. Gourmet pizza and Russian Imperial Stout. Man that's some good stuff.

 

[Torchiest]

Seabrook... hey that's down next to Clear Lake. I thought it sounded familiar. What bar? I used to visit Houston on a regular basis (JSC, though I'm not in that business anymore.... well, not exactly anyway). I used to go to BJ's over on Bay Area every time I had a trip there. Gourmet pizza and Russian Imperial Stout. Man that's some good stuff.

Yeah, I work at a place called Boondoggles. We have the best beer selection in a 20 mile radius. 50 taps and about 60 bottled beers. Heh, and we also serve gourmet specialty pizzas, and we've been here for more than eight years, before BJ's was on Bay Area. It's pretty close to the Johnson Space Center, actually. We get a ton of engineers and NASA employees in there, including the occasional astronaut. Small world!

 

[Caplan]

CAUTION: WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY PERSONAL RANT AGAINST BMC, IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED JUST KEEPING MOVING, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE.

*Caplan whistles 'Copacabana' by Barry Manilow in a 'you are on hold' style to the 'pure BMC Crowd' chosing to ignore Brewpastors post *

OK, RANT COMPLETE, YOU CAN GO BACK TO WHATEVER YOU WERE DOING.

Anyway, I only hope you guys that DON'T think BMC is the only thing worth drinking really read and understand Brewpastors post and then read Rhoobarb's comments of the decline of the beers and Breweries that ends with his upbeat conclusion:-

Thank God the craft brewing movement took hold here in the US!

I'll drink to the success of Craft Brews from the US but DON'T LET HISTORY REPEAT IT'S SELF.

Micro/Craft Brewers of the USA make some of the best tasting beer in the world - Let's keep supporting them by buying their beer and recommending them to our friends too!

(Sorry if this last highlighted bit came across all 'anti-American' to some of you BMC guys. I am English after all.... )

 

[olllllo]

I read that the greatest threat to craft brewing is not necessarily BMC, it's craft brewing competing against itself (a 3% marketshare) and realizing that they should focus on imports Like Heineken et al. (a 12% marketshare) that are similarly priced.

 

[dibby33]

Firstly I am from Scotland and have seen the good things that CAMRA do. Full pint measures for one. Good beer festivals (I worked behind a bar once where there was 150 barrels racked up behind me - BURP). They may be a little snobby, but remember one thing - they are promoting beer, good beer. They review pubs and give them ratings (and take them away) therefore encouraging the quality supply of good beer. My local pub always had five ales on tap and was known as one of the best bars in Edinburgh (not biased at all!). John Leslies Bar in Causeway side if you are ever in Edinburgh

As for the fizzy pop drinkers, that is just the nature of the world, just let them do what they want to do as we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Beer. Ale. Stout. Lager. Whatever. It all comes down to wanting to drink it for the taste (and the buzz). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Which reminds me, they have calculated the beer goggle effect - check this out : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/4468884.stm

...or you can buy them : http://www.burtonwoodandholmes.com/urbanspectacles/beergoggles.htm

 

[Schlenkerla]

Boy,

I read this thread, all 51 previous posts.......

I think the word "Real" could have been substituted with "Original" and it would have conveyed the meaning that the CAMRA people wanted to get across.

I like the idea of maintaining tradition. I think snootiness won't sell the idea of cask fresh beer

The idea of freshness, possibly the lack of hangover will though. An emphasis on quality would go a long way too.

Hence the Rhinheitgebot Law.... I think this is why it was declared in the first place... ... for simple health reasons.

Mind you, bleeding was the cure for just about every thing back then... so take that with a grain of salt!!

 

[disaffected]

Wow! I do not know how I missed this thread until now. What a great thread! I've sampled at least 83.7% of the content, more than enough to qualify as a significant sample. I also don't know how the mods haven't shut it down yet! Despite the fact that it has been quite civil throughout, it is definitely not without political overtones.

This reminded me of a soap opera or a novella when I read it, so here's my critique:

The speakers I enjoyed the most were Evan! (at least 91% a man of my mind, if not more), Torchiest (85% a man of my mind), Sonvolt (*the* most unemotionally levelheaded, well-reasoned, and cogent of all significant speakers in this thread, congratulations sir), Fiery Sword (I disagree with much of your reasoning, but I like the way you say speak, and yes, you're probably 20% a man of my mind, which is quite a lot higher than the average person, uh, where did you get the idea that laws define freedom? Look that word up!), and BrewPastor (for the BMC rant... that is Real Rant, people!)

Oh, by the way, I think CAMRA is a great organization because it seeks to preserve something that is worth preserving, and was in continuing decline at the time the organization was formed. I don't agree that petitioning government is a particularly useful or productive thing to do, but the awareness CAMRA raises in the general public regarding the cause is surely a thing to be commended. I like real ale. Imaginary ale has never done a thing for me.

I thought the input from the Brits on this thread was especially relevant and provided much needed indigenous perspective. They live over yonder, after all, and it's nice to hear what the natives think. What did y'all think of us Americans flippin' out over your organizations (er, I mean, organisations)?

** CAVEAT ** I AM drunk, so gimme a break. I certainly hope I posting in the right thread.

** Uh ** Forgive me, o board (or is it bored)?, I know not what I babble.

 

[Drunk Monkey]

Didn't read through this whole thread, but the fact that I am drinking from a pint glass that I got at the San Diego Real Ale Festival, thought I should comment. Maybe it was a sign for me to read all the posts, but I don't have the time.
I had a lot of good ("real ale") beer that day though.

 

[Fiery Sword]

...where did you get the idea that laws define freedom? Look that word up!)

If I were one who only understood "freedom" by it's primary dictionary definition, I would also have to be one of those insufferable conspiracy-theorists who believe they live in a fully controlled society and that they are all just slaves to some overbearing government.

A safe definition to use is "the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints." By that simple measure, none of us are "free". There are always externally imposed restraints. And there should be. So that is where the simple definition of "freedom" falls short of how our day-to-day experience in a "free" society defines the word. The laws define what freedoms we have (speech, etc. etc. etc.) and don't have (crime, etc. etc. etc.). In that respect, the laws absolutely define freedom, and that is what I was referring to.

...you're probably 20% a man of my mind, which is quite a lot higher than the average person...

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

 

[Buford]

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

I think they mean that as "20% a man OF their mind", meaning they agree with you about 1/5 of the time.

 

[Orfy]

I'm a member of CAMRA.

Real Ale is Cask Condtition Live Ale.

The difference between a "real" cask beer and a kegged beer is that kegged beer is usually clinically dead, yeast could not survive in it, needs CO2 to be forced into it to serve with a fizz and can looked after by a monkey.

Real/Cask ale is live, naturally carbonated, can be served from a hand pump direct from the cask without the need for C02 and it need skill and care to keep it and serve it correctly. It has nothing to do with the "Wood Cask"

I see real ale as ale that is not force carbonated and supper chilled like most of the chemical laden fizzy water stuff that is mass produced and mass marketed.

There's nothing snobbish about it at all. It's about getting good beer on tap in as many establishments as possible It does a wonderful job of supporting the people and companies in the industry who do a good Job. They help small breweries with investment and growth.
I'm not saying it does everything perfectly or pleases all of the people all of the time but it does a good job at what it tries out to do.

Need I say more?

 

[disaffected]

If I were one who only understood "freedom" by it's primary dictionary definition, I would also have to be one of those insufferable conspiracy-theorists who believe they live in a fully controlled society and that they are all just slaves to some overbearing government.

A safe definition to use is "the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints." By that simple measure, none of us are "free". There are always externally imposed restraints. And there should be. So that is where the simple definition of "freedom" falls short of how our day-to-day experience in a "free" society defines the word. The laws define what freedoms we have (speech, etc. etc. etc.) and don't have (crime, etc. etc. etc.). In that respect, the laws absolutely define freedom, and that is what I was referring to.


I suppose I'll take that as a compliment, though I'm sure you think of youself at 100% man. And that, in my mind, is inherently contradictory.

It almost sounds as though you regard freedom as a governmental policy decision. To say that freedom is defined by law is to say that slavery is the natural condition of mankind, and that freedom is a privilege granted to you by your rulers.

When I refer to freedom, I mean the exercise of one's free will over one's own property, an absence of interference by others with the exercise of one's free will. What do you think of that definition of freedom, and what do you call the condition you find yourself in when law places limits on that?

Law doesn't establish freedom. It destroys it. Your definition of freedom is an example of Orwellian doublespeak. It is a definition of freedom deliberately constructed to distort its true meaning. Why would someone do that? Why would someone buy that? Why would someone promote an ersatz freedom?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Moderator - The thread is being hijacked off subject again.

Stop with the political/legal/philosophy lesson. I'm not impressed. You are taking this all too seriously, especially if it has nothing to do with beer!

Try to stay with the original subject.

Why don't you email each other if you have to continue this...

 

[Fiery Sword]

You might be half-right in saying the we are straying from the subject, Schlenkerla, but this entire thread has been dabbling in politics and philosophy from the beginning. If it upsets you too much, don't take it out on the participants of the discussion. Just don't follow the thread.

Regardless, I totally disagree with your spin on my thoughts, beer4, but that's cool. We aren't always going to share similar beliefs! My idea of freedom is unchanged - and I honestly believe that rules (laws) are a fundamental means to an end when it comes to granting, and protecting, freedom. Laws can be downright horrific and wrong (slavery, as you mentioned) but we are free to fight to change them in an effort to have our laws reflect a more "true" freedom for our citizens.

(And this is on topic as it is related to the evolution of this discussion when it came to the German/Bavarian beer laws and how they tried to define what "real" beer was. CAMRA is all politics, all philosophy, so it should be no surprise that this thread is. As to you not being impressed, Schlenkerla, thanks for the constructive input. )