Calcium Chloride and Gypsum

[penguin69]

Should these be put in at start of boil or flame out? I am confused.

This is a hazy iPad

 

[mongoose33]

Should these be put in at start of boil or flame out? I am confused.

This is a hazy iPad

Why are you using them? Normally I'd be using these in the strike water for an all-grain brew...

 

[Dgallo]

Like stated above, should be your mash and sparge water. It also should be purposeful, meaning knowing the amount of ca, Cl, and so4 in your source water and adjusting to meet a targeted amount

 

[penguin69]

Why are you using them? Normally I'd be using these in the strike water for an all-grain brew...

Directions just say 60 min so I was assuming it was in the boil. Should it be in the mash? That is why I am confused.

 

[penguin69]

Directions said if using reverse osmosis water it is recommended to add them.

 

[mongoose33]

Directions just say 60 min so I was assuming it was in the boil. Should it be in the mash? That is why I am confused.

Let's back up. What exactly are you brewing? All-grain? If so, and you're using RO water, those almost certainly belong in the strike water so as to create the correct water chemistry in the mash for optimal conversion.

Do you have a source for the directions? Major online sources like MoreBeer and Northern Brewer show their recipe and direction sheets as part of the kits they sell online.

 

[penguin69]

This is home brew supply all grain crazy hazy ipa

 

[penguin69]

Directions don’t say much and are confusing.

 

[penguin69]

 

[mongoose33]

Not morebeer.

 

[penguin69]

Sorry it was home brew supply.

 

[mongoose33]

OK, I've just read both the recipe sheet and instructions, and you're right, they aren't all that helpful.

But what I want to know is where did your gypsum and calcium chloride come from? Were they with the kit? How do you know to add them, and where did you get the sense they should go in the boil? And, how much of each are you supposed to be adding?

Here are the directions and the recipe:

https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=11779
https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=28783

Never mind--your instructions aren't what they have online.

You'll note that the additions say "Mash" and 60-minutes. That means you should mix them into the strike water before adding the grain.

 

[penguin69]

It was a kit

 

[mongoose33]

It was a kit

Mix them into the strike water before adding the grain.

 

[penguin69]

Thanks. Sorry I was a pain and confused you. Appreciate the help.

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks. Sorry I was a pain and confused you. Appreciate the help.

Everybody starts somewhere, mostly at the beginning. It's been a successful day, you've learned some things. I always get a kick out of having my understanding improve.

Now make some good beer!

 

[penguin69]

Just started. I am new to all grain and trying to start off slowly but I guess that didn’t happen. Just didn’t understand when to add them. Guess I need to do more reading.

Everyone here is so quick to respond and very helpful. First place I come when I need help.

Thanks again. Have a beer on me.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Everyone here is so quick to respond and very helpful. First place I come when I need help.

Kits get us started, forum discussion moves us forward.

Guess I need to do more reading.

Lots of moving parts when it comes to brewing. Lots of combinations to those moving parts when reading online discussions across the years.

Maybe someone here can link to an online all-grain brew day outline (with bonus likes for an outline that is appropriately "poka-yoke"d). There are a couple of recent homebrewing books that offer an outline.

edit: removed some marginally related content.

 

[Jag75]

One thing I read in the brew science section is that gypsum, calcium chloride and lactic acid should be put in room temp water and stir to dissolve.

 

[mongoose33]

One thing I read in the brew science section is that gypsum, calcium chloride and lactic acid should be put in room temp water and stir to dissolve.

Interesting. I've never done it that way, at least not for the last 40 or 50 brews. I add those things at strike temp.

 

[couchsending]

I add all the salts destined for sparge water to the kettle... that way the calcium actually ends up in the fermenter

 

[seatazzz]

I add my salts directly to the mash; literally on top of the milled grain before the strike water goes in, except for the lactic acid which I add after I've mashed in. Every batch that will have late addition hops gets 2 tsp of gypsum, and if I'm doing a lager, 1 tsp each of calcium chloride & lactic acid to soften the water. Not very scientific, yes I know, but it works. Made a huge difference in my last Czech.

 

[whovous]

My understanding is that some salts dissolve more completely at room temp rather than at strike temp.

 

[cactusgarrett]

1. Find out why you're adding salts (this is the hardest part; learning water chemistry as it relates to brewing).
2. Add salts and/or acid to the mash for pH purposes.
3. Add salts to the boil (not the sparge water) for taste purposes.
4. Add acid to sparge water only if fly sparging, where high pH (and tannin extraction) are potential issues.

2, 3, and 4 are related to 1: you need to know your water and what you're trying to do. You could need to do nothing, you could need to do all the things. There are a few more basic rules, but these will get you started in the right direction.

 

[whovous]

1. Find out why you're adding salts (this is the hardest part; learning water chemistry as it relates to brewing).
2. Add salts and/or acid to the mash for pH purposes.
3. Add salts to the boil (not the sparge water) for taste purposes.
4. Add acid to sparge water only if fly sparging, where high pH (and tannin extraction) are potential issues.

2, 3, and 4 are related to 1: you need to know your water and what you're trying to do. You could need to do nothing, you could need to do all the things. There are a few more basic rules, but these will get you started in the right direction.

I don't understand #3. Why does it matter if the salt is added to the sparge? I've always added it to both. As I recall Brunwater will do the math either way.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I don't understand #3. Why does it matter if the salt is added to the sparge? I've always added it to both. As I recall Brunwater will do the math either way.

Adding salts to points that aren't the mash is essentially done to hit a specific profile (either a city or a SO4:CL ratio). Since it's after the mash, it's done for flavor purposes, not mash pH. Adding the salts to the sparge water is more likely to not have it ultimately end up in the boil kettle, and because you're just doing it for end-game flavor purposes, adding to the boil kettle is more efficient.

 

[whovous]

Adding salts to points that aren't the mash is essentially done to hit a specific profile (either a city or a SO4:CL ratio). Since it's after the mash, it's done for flavor purposes, not mash pH. Adding the salts to the sparge water is more likely to not have it ultimately end up in the boil kettle, and because you're just doing it for end-game flavor purposes, adding to the boil kettle is more efficient.

I still don't follow. I salt for levels, not for ratios. 200 SO & 100 CL is not the same as 40 SO and 20 CL even though the ratios are the same. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 0/0 sparge water, I will wind up with something less than the 200/100 that I wanted. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 200/100 sparge water, I should wind up pretty close to 200/100 for the overall wort. I could start with something higher than 200/100 mash and dilute it to 200/100 sparge, but my gut tells me that is a little less reliable than the other way. I've not tried to verify it by experiment.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Saw a few older posts from Martin, and this was the main reason I've not added salts to the sparge water:

"Since we shouldn't be adding alkalinity to sparging water...you would not add minerals such as baking soda, lime, or chalk to the sparging water. The other typical minerals such as gypsum, table salt, and calcium chloride would not increase mash pH." I think the the recent years, it has been shown that as long as pH of the sparge water is in check, you shouldn't worry about extraction of tannins, so salts shouldn't play into that.

(and from a separate post)

"Now there is a drawback to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The calcium ends up complexing with phytins from the malt. Some of that calcium is lost in the mash, but that is a minor price to pay for the benefits mentioned above."

And the benefit he mentions is that:
"For brewers using water with little mineralization, there is a clear advantage to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The extra mineralization added to the sparging water provides a couple of benefits. The first is that the increased osmotic stress on the cells of the grain from the higher mineralization should help reduce the extraction of undesirable components like tannins and silicate from the grain. Another benefit is that extra calcium in the sparging water helps complex with oxalates from the grain and helps keep them out of the kettle."

 

[whovous]

Interesting. I guess the most precise answer then is: "It depends."

I start with RO water and typically add only Gypsum and CaCl. So I guess I am one those Martin says benefits from salting the sparge water. I guess I am also guilty of being one of those who thinks that if it is the right way for me, it must be the right way for everyone. It is not.

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[juggabrew]

Just MO. I would skip the flour.

My process is to add salts to strike water before doughing in for PH adjustment. Then add “sparge” salts to boil kettle since most of these salts will get caught up in the grain and not pass to the kettle. I agree with @cactusgarrett. If you’re just starting out water is super confusing but if you’re wanting to learn more details I would recommend picking up a few books like the water book by Jamil and Chris White. Also, Denny and drew are coming out with a new book about simple brewing which has some water tips. Good luck and welcome

Oh also! there’s some really good podcast out there that have covered water. Brew strong, basic brewing radio, BeerSmith podcast.