Should these be put in at start of boil or flame out? I am confused.
This is a hazy iPad
Why are you using them? Normally I'd be using these in the strike water for an all-grain brew...
Directions just say 60 min so I was assuming it was in the boil. Should it be in the mash? That is why I am confused.
OK, I've just read both the recipe sheet and instructions, and you're right, they aren't all that helpful.
But what I want to know is where did your gypsum and calcium chloride come from? Were they with the kit? How do you know to add them, and where did you get the sense they should go in the boil? And, how much of each are you supposed to be adding?
Here are the directions and the recipe:
https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=11779
https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=28783
It was a kit
Thanks. Sorry I was a pain and confused you. Appreciate the help.
Everyone here is so quick to respond and very helpful. First place I come when I need help.
Guess I need to do more reading.
One thing I read in the brew science section is that gypsum, calcium chloride and lactic acid should be put in room temp water and stir to dissolve.
I don't understand #3. Why does it matter if the salt is added to the sparge? I've always added it to both. As I recall Brunwater will do the math either way.2, 3, and 4 are related to 1: you need to know your water and what you're trying to do. You could need to do nothing, you could need to do all the things. There are a few more basic rules, but these will get you started in the right direction.
- Find out why you're adding salts (this is the hardest part; learning water chemistry as it relates to brewing).
- Add salts and/or acid to the mash for pH purposes.
- Add salts to the boil (not the sparge water) for taste purposes.
- Add acid to sparge water only if fly sparging, where high pH (and tannin extraction) are potential issues.
Adding salts to points that aren't the mash is essentially done to hit a specific profile (either a city or a SO4:CL ratio). Since it's after the mash, it's done for flavor purposes, not mash pH. Adding the salts to the sparge water is more likely to not have it ultimately end up in the boil kettle, and because you're just doing it for end-game flavor purposes, adding to the boil kettle is more efficient.I don't understand #3. Why does it matter if the salt is added to the sparge? I've always added it to both. As I recall Brunwater will do the math either way.
I still don't follow. I salt for levels, not for ratios. 200 SO & 100 CL is not the same as 40 SO and 20 CL even though the ratios are the same. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 0/0 sparge water, I will wind up with something less than the 200/100 that I wanted. If I bring my mash water to 200/100 and then add an undecided amount of 200/100 sparge water, I should wind up pretty close to 200/100 for the overall wort. I could start with something higher than 200/100 mash and dilute it to 200/100 sparge, but my gut tells me that is a little less reliable than the other way. I've not tried to verify it by experiment.Adding salts to points that aren't the mash is essentially done to hit a specific profile (either a city or a SO4:CL ratio). Since it's after the mash, it's done for flavor purposes, not mash pH. Adding the salts to the sparge water is more likely to not have it ultimately end up in the boil kettle, and because you're just doing it for end-game flavor purposes, adding to the boil kettle is more efficient.
Saw a few older posts from Martin, and this was the main reason I've not added salts to the sparge water:
"Since we shouldn't be adding alkalinity to sparging water...you would not add minerals such as baking soda, lime, or chalk to the sparging water. The other typical minerals such as gypsum, table salt, and calcium chloride would not increase mash pH." I think the the recent years, it has been shown that as long as pH of the sparge water is in check, you shouldn't worry about extraction of tannins, so salts shouldn't play into that.
(and from a separate post)
"Now there is a drawback to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The calcium ends up complexing with phytins from the malt. Some of that calcium is lost in the mash, but that is a minor price to pay for the benefits mentioned above."
And the benefit he mentions is that:
"For brewers using water with little mineralization, there is a clear advantage to adding calcium salts to the sparging water. The extra mineralization added to the sparging water provides a couple of benefits. The first is that the increased osmotic stress on the cells of the grain from the higher mineralization should help reduce the extraction of undesirable components like tannins and silicate from the grain. Another benefit is that extra calcium in the sparging water helps complex with oxalates from the grain and helps keep them out of the kettle."
Well, they were called "Kettle Salts" for the last 150 years of brewing history, but if home brewers have decided they are to be added in the sparge water, so be it.
No offense to whomever, but I can't see a single instance where you'd not want to add the salts to the kettle (assuming they were added to the mash). I suspect this is coming from that quasi revisionist home brewing movement where calcium is no longer deemed important, yet all the supposed benefits of adding salts to the sparge water are the same benefits of adding enough Ca to the mash.
Adding salts to the sparge is not necessary if you already added enough Ca and other ions in the mash. So long as your sparge pH and alkalinity is fine, adding salts to the kettle has the side of effect of ensuring they actually end up in the wort. You'll lose 75% or more of your Ca ions in the mash/sparge, and losses to Mg, S04, and Cl are similar, albeit less important. Some are lost when added in the kettle as well, but the effect is far less.
Seems kinda weird, doesn't it? English IPAs back in the day were always famous for the very hard "Burton water" they were made with. The did not get lost in the mash then, and it is hard to understand why it would get lost today.For sure the CL, and So4 get caught up in the grains? I had always read that you’ll lose Ca but the other ions will for the most part make it through. Also the higher you alkalinity the more Ca you lose correct?
What is osmotic pressure?Calcium is not necessary for brewing water, but it does have some benefits. Malt provides ALL the calcium that yeast needs for its metabolism, just like it does for magnesium. But calcium in the water does provide some improvement in enzyme stability and it helps remove excess oxalate and that reduces beerstone formation. But there are NO benefits in overdosing calcium into your wort and excessive calcium can actually injure or impair yeast.
While calcium can be precipitated in the mash, chloride and sulfate are completely soluble in the mash and they make it through unreduced. While it makes little difference in the resulting kettle wort concentrations, there 'might' be a benefit if salts are added to the sparging water instead of directly to the kettle due to its effect on osmotic pressure.
Interesting. I guess the most precise answer then is: "It depends."
I start with RO water and typically add only Gypsum and CaCl. So I guess I am one those Martin says benefits from salting the sparge water. I guess I am also guilty of being one of those who thinks that if it is the right way for me, it must be the right way for everyone. It is not.
Roughly speaking, the pressure as a result of the difference of ion concentrations inside a cell versus outside. (stop me if i'm wrong, but) Martin's suggesting that salting the sparge water would make those water additions closer in ionic concentrations to the internal contents of the cells in the mash, and thus are less likely to draw out undesireables (ie. tannins) due to the reduced positive pressure the cells are exhibiting.What is osmotic pressure?
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