cacao nibs astringency - save my stout

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've got an imperial stout thats been aging on nibs and oak cubes for a few weeks in a keg

the oak flavor is not fully developed yet, but the nibs are throwing off some astringency reminiscent of over-brewed coffee.

its not completely terrible (and I'm sure most of the normal population would be ok with it), but the beer could definitely use some fixing

anything I can do to mellow the astringency? Just give it more time & RDWHAHB?

(Note: I brew 10g batches. The first keg without the oak and nibs was awesome, so its not the base beer causing the issue)

 

[Jag75]

Maybe time will help. How much nibs did you add ? I'm taking it you seperated into two 5 gallon kegs .

 

[kevin58]

A few weeks is nowhere near close enough for an Imperial Stout to be ready. I'm only now beginning to sample one that I kegged back in July.

 

[Miraculix]

A few weeks is nowhere near close enough for an Imperial Stout to be ready. I'm only now beginning to sample one that I kegged back in July.

This!

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

This!

Agreed that flavors of a stout usually improve and get smoother with some age.

However, I somewhat disagree in this case. The non nibbed version kegged from the same batch had absolutely no astringency and tasted great almost immediately.

I also brewed a very similar batch last year aged only on oak (no nibs) and there was no astringency within the same timeframe.

Astringency is definitely from the nibs. Hoping this specific off flavor mellows with time.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Maybe time will help. How much nibs did you add ? I'm taking it you seperated into two 5 gallon kegs .

Yeah one 5g keg I dry hopped and served immediately. It was super awesome and haa already kicked. Kind of like a victory storm king or stone sublimely. (no nibs or oak)

The second 5g keg has been aging on 4oz nibs & 2oz medium toast oak cubes. Been aging now for about 6 weeks at 58 degrees

I've used similar oak additions before with no issue. Confident its the nibs causing the issue. (note: For the oak I soak in bourbon for a few weeks then disgard the bourbon and add cubes only)

 

[bierhaus15]

Astringency from cocoa nibs is a common issue. Typically 12-24 hrs is plenty of time to extract cocoa character from nibs and limit astringency. Gelatin finings can help remove some of the character, although the best solution is to not over extract in the first place. Time helps too. If you really don't want to wait, PVPP can make a huge impact. Not sure if it is readily available to home brewers.

 

[Miraculix]

Agreed that flavors of a stout usually improve and get smoother with some age.

However, I somewhat disagree in this case. The non nibbed version kegged from the same batch had absolutely no astringency and tasted great almost immediately.

I also brewed a very similar batch last year aged only on oak (no nibs) and there was no astringency within the same timeframe.

Astringency is definitely from the nibs. Hoping this specific off flavor mellows with time.

Sure, it is from the nibs. No matter where it came from, it will dissipate with age. That is what at least I meant with the aging. Maybe the unniped batch doies not need it (although it will improve for sure with aging), but the niped one seems to need it!

 

[Jag75]

I've never had an astrengy taste from using nibs. I'd think maybe the oak chips before nibs.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've never had an astrengy taste from using nibs. I'd think maybe the oak chips before nibs.

how long did you let them sit? how much per 5g?

 

[thehaze]

I have to agree with others. A few weeks on cocoa nibs is way too much. The extraction - especially when the nibs have been soaked in some spirit - will take place in a few days. 1 week is too much for me. The process should let you add the cocoa nibs a few days before serving / kegging / bottling. Oak cubes will take longer to develop flavour, but not cocoa beans / nibs.

 

[Jag75]

how long did you let them sit? how much per 5g?

I soak 4 oz in bourben or vodka for 2 weeks then put in my FV on day 7 and then keg on day 21

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

D

I have to agree with others. A few weeks on cocoa nibs is way too much. The extraction - especially when the nibs have been soaked in some spirit - will take place in a few days. 1 week is too much for me. The process should let you add the cocoa nibs a few days before serving / kegging / bottling. Oak cubes will take longer to develop flavour, but not cocoa beans / nibs.

Didn't use an spirits... Just threw em in

Its obvious at this point I left em in too long. Lesson learned for the future I guess. Can't win em all. At least the kolsch I just kegged turned out awesome so I don't feel as bad

Hopefully it mellows out over time. I'll set the keg aside for a couple months

Next time I'll skip the nibs and just go with the oak

 

[day_trippr]

I've been following this thread as I've had an imperial chocolate stout on tap continuously for well over a decade, use a half pound of roasted nibs plus two scraped and smushed vanilla beans per 5 gallons, marinaded in dark rum to cover for a week, then dumped in fresh glass with the stout racked on top (this is the only brew I use a second vessel before kegging).

It then simmers for up to a couple of weeks then gets kegged without any crashing, lightly carbed to ~1.2 volumes, then sits in cold conditioning. When the previous stout keg kicks the freshie goes on the beer gas in the keezer and is ready to rock right away.

I have never gotten an alkaline or astringent character from this, and even non-beer drinkers love the heck out of it. So, I wonder about the nibs that were used.

Cocoa beans are often alkalized to intensify the chocolate character. Maybe the batch used was off the rails in that regard...

Cheers!

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've been following this thread as I've had an imperial chocolate stout on tap continuously for well over a decade, use a half pound of roasted nibs plus two scraped and smushed vanilla beans per 5 gallons, marinaded in dark rum to cover for a week, then dumped in fresh glass with the stout racked on top (this is the only brew I use a second vessel before kegging).

It then simmers for up to a couple of weeks then gets kegged without any crashing, lightly carbed to ~1.2 volumes, then sits in cold conditioning. When the previous stout keg kicks the freshie goes on the beer gas in the keezer and is ready to rock right away.

I have never gotten an alkaline or astringent character from this, and even non-beer drinkers love the heck out of it. So, I wonder about the nibs that were used.

Cocoa beans are often alkalized to intensify the chocolate character. Maybe the batch used was off the rails in that regard...

Cheers!

These are the nibs that I used (4oz). They tasted and smelled great before I threw em in the keg

https://www.morebeer.com/products/cacao-nibs-4-oz.html

I didn't soak them in alcohol, just threw em in straight. That also could have had an impact vs. your experience.

(Note: I purged the keg before throwing in the nibs. Doubt its oxidation)

Also, I might be misusing the term astringent to describe the off flavor. The off flavor is similar to that of overbrewed coffee. I perceive it as being a tad harsh or acidic (maybe its alakalinity as opposed to acidity?). If you've ever had a cold brew that wasn't done quite right and felt harsh that's what it feels like.

I'm going to transfer to another keg and get them off the nibs/oak and let it mellow for sometime. I'll report back in a few months to see if it gets better.

 

[Jag75]

Those are the same ones I use . I just add like dry hopping but no reason you cant put em in your keg for a bit like you did. Jumping to another keg is good idea.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Transfering it off all the junk to a new keg

first time trying this method...pretty pretty good

 

[Bubbles2]

I use nibs all the time. Should soak in 80 proof for 24, go ahead and dump the liquid in your beer too. No more than 5 days on the nib soak including the soak time. They begin to become bitter if in too long. One combat if searching for chocolate flavor, since we eat commercial chocolate we are expectant of a certain type flavor, which is a lot of vanilla. Pull 2 oz off and use a dropper with vanilla extract to check it out. 5 drops is about a TBSP in a 5 gal batch for some math.. So if you like 2 drops use a tsp and a half or a half of a Tbsp.
Tip * When I pull those nibs I jar and fridge them, and use those in the last 20 minutes of a Rye IPA on the Boil, great Bite with a well hopped beer.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Well... Got some good news to report...

It's actually tasting pretty good now that in the new keg. I must have been pulling up some junk when I took my samples the other day.

Now it tastes great with very little astringency. Could go less time on the nibs next time, but in the end the beer ended up being tasty

 

[Bubbles2]

View attachment 657048 Well... Got some good news to report...

It's actually tasting pretty good now that in the new keg. I must have been pulling up some junk when I took my samples the other day.

Now it tastes great with very little astringency. Could go less time on the nibs next time, but in the end the beer ended up being tasty

looks good, great head, another thing I do to get a bit of "body" in my stouts, instead of popping for Lactose Sugar is to use Pectin at flame out. Couple of tsp to a Tbsp to 5 gallon, gives a nice texture. Your head looks like you have a good body on that one, maybe wheat berries or the aforementioned lactose? Anyhow in a couple weeks (if it lasts) that will get better and better especially if you pull your carb down to 2.3.
I always pull a mason jar qt after settling in the Keg, pulls any sediment and I use the Jar full of Beer & sediment to marinate a chicken later...

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

looks good, great head, another thing I do to get a bit of "body" in my stouts, instead of popping for Lactose Sugar is to use Pectin at flame out. Couple of tsp to a Tbsp to 5 gallon, gives a nice texture. Your head looks like you have a good body on that one, maybe wheat berries or the aforementioned lactose? Anyhow in a couple weeks (if it lasts) that will get better and better especially if you pull your carb down to 2.3.
I always pull a mason jar qt after settling in the Keg, pulls any sediment and I use the Jar full of Beer & sediment to marinate a chicken later...

All malt beer actually... No wheat or adjuncts. Here's what i think is contributing to head and body in picture:

Mashed high @ 158

some dark crystal (.5# special b &.75# crystal 60 per 5 gallons)

Very heavily hopped at end of boil.

Used dennys favorite yeast

70% attenuation which very low for me. I usually get 80% or higher on most beers even when mashing high.

Its nice to have a stout to chew on. Although the final gravity is the highest of any beer I've ever brewed it is not cloying (at least the dry hopper version in keg 1 wasn't. And this one is now tasting nice malty and getting smoother)

1.096 OG
1.027 FG

9.3% abv

The other contributing factor to the head in the picture is that it was sampled from a picnic tap at cellar temp. There was 30 PSI in the headspace (to keep the lid sealed only) so poured super foamy

 

[day_trippr]

Those are good numbers wrt OG/FG, my recipe is 1.106 OG with a typical 1.028 FG but there are 4 pounds of clover honey involved which pretty much goes straight to ethanol

Cheers!