Quantcast

Brut IPA: Misread directions and Pitched GlucoAmylase @ 68F -- Is this ok?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
Currently brewing a Brut IPA and pitched my FermFast GlucoAmylase (2g per 5 gal) Enzyme along with Wyeast 1272 (American Ale II) at 68F in the carboy. Currently sitting at 64F in the primary (OG 1.050).
I noticed the directions actually said to pitch the glucoamylase at 131-140F. Will the enzyme still work to get to 1.000 FG or will I need to consider another solution?
 

stealthfixr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2012
Messages
187
Reaction score
67
Location
Tucson
I had a Porter cease fermenting at 1.027 for unexplained reasons, and it was just too sweet to call it done. I mixed 1 tsp glucoamylase with room temp water until dissolved, then pitched right into the 70F conical. Fermentation restarted and finished out at 1.012--great stuff. Pretty sure you are going to be fine.
 
OP
J

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
I had a Porter cease fermenting at 1.027 for unexplained reasons, and it was just too sweet to call it done. I mixed 1 tsp glucoamylase with room temp water until dissolved, then pitched right into the 70F conical. Fermentation restarted and finished out at 1.012--great stuff. Pretty sure you are going to be fine.
Thanks for the reply - that is a relief!
 

TheMadKing

Western Yankee Southerner and Brew Science Nerd
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,587
Reaction score
1,585
Location
Gainesville
It will ferment out to 1.000 (or probably .997 with alcohol) - I've had it throw really bad sulfur off flavors when pitched with the yeast though - I believe after some research that they enter a condition where they become unable to metabolize anything but glucose because of the extremely high levels of glucose in the environment - all my brut IPA's with glucoamylase in the fermenter have ended up with SUPER powdery yeast that does not flocculate and very high sulfur production. I've had much better luck using it in the mash

glucoamylase will stick around in your vessels too if you don't heat them to boiling or a pH above 11 to denature it btw

 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,208
Reaction score
814
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
It will ferment out to 1.000 (or probably .997 with alcohol) - I've had it throw really bad sulfur off flavors when pitched with the yeast though - I believe after some research that they enter a condition where they become unable to metabolize anything but glucose because of the extremely high levels of glucose in the environment - all my brut IPA's with glucoamylase in the fermenter have ended up with SUPER powdery yeast that does not flocculate and very high sulfur production. I've had much better luck using it in the mash

glucoamylase will stick around in your vessels too if you don't heat them to boiling or a pH above 11 to denature it btw

I've only brewed with amylo a few times, each time with the enzyme added both in the mash and the fermenter. But I didn't experience the sulfurous odors you mentioned in any of them. I used different yeasts each time, one with Omega Labs "Gulo", one with Notty and one with Chico IIRC.

The benefit of using it only in the mash would be the likely denaturing of the enzyme during mashout/sparge and during the boil when temperatures exceed ~145F. As you mention, I was concerned as well that lingering effects of the enzyme might exist in the FV, but I never experienced any "super-low" attenuation in subsequent brews. Final Gravities around 0.997-0.998 were the norm along with "fluffy" yeast cakes.

Brooo Brother
 
OP
J

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
It will ferment out to 1.000 (or probably .997 with alcohol) - I've had it throw really bad sulfur off flavors when pitched with the yeast though - I believe after some research that they enter a condition where they become unable to metabolize anything but glucose because of the extremely high levels of glucose in the environment - all my brut IPA's with glucoamylase in the fermenter have ended up with SUPER powdery yeast that does not flocculate and very high sulfur production. I've had much better luck using it in the mash

glucoamylase will stick around in your vessels too if you don't heat them to boiling or a pH above 11 to denature it btw

Very helpful thank you!
 
OP
J

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
I've only brewed with amylo a few times, each time with the enzyme added both in the mash and the fermenter. But I didn't experience the sulfurous odors you mentioned in any of them. I used different yeasts each time, one with Omega Labs "Gulo", one with Notty and one with Chico IIRC.

The benefit of using it only in the mash would be the likely denaturing of the enzyme during mashout/sparge and during the boil when temperatures exceed ~145F. As you mention, I was concerned as well that lingering effects of the enzyme might exist in the FV, but I never experienced any "super-low" attenuation in subsequent brews. Final Gravities around 0.997-0.998 were the norm along with "fluffy" yeast cakes.

Brooo Brother
Thanks for the reply this is great
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,208
Reaction score
814
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
I've only brewed with amylo a few times, each time with the enzyme added both in the mash and the fermenter. But I didn't experience the sulfurous odors you mentioned in any of them. I used different yeasts each time, one with Omega Labs "Gulo", one with Notty and one with Chico IIRC.

The benefit of using it only in the mash would be the likely denaturing of the enzyme during mashout/sparge and during the boil when temperatures exceed ~145F. As you mention, I was concerned as well that lingering effects of the enzyme might exist in the FV, but I never experienced any "super-low" attenuation in subsequent brews. Final Gravities around 0.997-0.998 were the norm along with "fluffy" yeast cakes.

Brooo Brother
Another thought just occurred to me. I've seen the really "fluffy" yeast cakes in two other yeasts I've used in the last year: Imperial A09 "Pub" and Wyeast 2105-PC "Rocky Mt. Lager". Both finished "low" around 1.003 to 1.005. Are they possibly STA-1 Positive?

Brooo Brother
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
11,832
Reaction score
5,032
Location
S.AZ
i slways add it to the fermenter. i tried using it in the mash once, maybe i didn't do it right or something, but i had to add more to the fermenter still, to get it dry.
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,208
Reaction score
814
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
i slways add it to the fermenter. i tried using it in the mash once, maybe i didn't do it right or something, but i had to add more to the fermenter still, to get it dry.
When I used it in the mash I added it before dough-in at 95F/35C and then step mashed with rests at 113F/45C and 131F/55C before hitting temps above 145F where the amylo enzyme is mostly denatured. Beta rest was at 140F/60C for :35 minutes, so total time below 145F was nearly an hour, followed by Alpha rest an mashout. Sure made for some dry beers!

Brooo Brother
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
11,832
Reaction score
5,032
Location
S.AZ
When I used it in the mash I added it before dough-in at 95F/35C and then step mashed with rests at 113F/45C and 131F/55C before hitting temps above 145F where the amylo enzyme is mostly denatured. Beta rest was at 140F/60C for :35 minutes, so total time below 145F was nearly an hour, followed by Alpha rest an mashout. Sure made for some dry beers!

Brooo Brother
hmm, been a while since i tried it. i think i just tossed it in at 150f with the mash.

edit: now that i think about it. i don't see how it work on sugar that hasn't been created yet?
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,208
Reaction score
814
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
Someone with more formal education in microbiology could explain it better, but my understanding is that amyolglucosidaise debranches 1,4 and 1,6 starches as well as other limit dextrins to make them available for fermentation. It has an active temperature range optimum from the low 100s F to mid-140s F, and is mostly denatured by 145F. It doesn't work on the sugars but mostly the starches to make sugars available for fermentation. At least that's my limited understanding.
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
11,832
Reaction score
5,032
Location
S.AZ
well i don't know about the optimum temp, but it does work fine at room temp.

someone else would have to chime in, so if breaks down starches, and not just unfermentable dextrins, which are produced by the randomness of alpha amylase. i might try mashing at something like 120f, and add gluco to the mash, and check the gravity to see if i even need to ramp up the temp to 150-162 for alpha or beta to work....thanks for what will be a fun experiment! :mug:

can't lose a batch because of it, because if i pull i sample and i'm not getting conversion at 120f, i can always go hotter!

edit: and i just thought it worked on the by-products of alpha amylase....
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
11,030
Reaction score
7,161
Location
Renton
well i don't know about the optimum temp, but it does work fine at room temp.

someone else would have to chime in, so if breaks down starches, and not just unfermentable dextrins, which are produced by the randomness of alpha amylase. i might try mashing at something like 120f, and add gluco to the mash, and check the gravity to see if i even need to ramp up the temp to 150-162 for alpha or beta to work....thanks for what will be a fun experiment! :mug:

can't lose a batch because of it, because if i pull i sample and i'm not getting conversion at 120f, i can always go hotter!

edit: and i just thought it worked on the by-products of alpha amylase....
I think you would have trouble getting complete gelatinization of the starch at 120F or even 140F in reasonable amounts of time. The enzymes can't work on the starch until the starch is gelatinized.

Brew on :mug:
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
11,832
Reaction score
5,032
Location
S.AZ
I think you would have trouble getting complete gelatinization of the starch at 120F or even 140F in reasonable amounts of time. The enzymes can't work on the starch until the starch is gelatinized.

Brew on :mug:

good point! :mug: so reverse step mash it is! i'll just leave the lid off the cooler for the first 15 minutes or so, then add my gluco...kinda solves both problems.

but back on topic @jakehoodlum don't worry about it, you'll get Brüt beer. i just had to wait for my last batch to drop from 1.005 to 1.000 for two days, but it got there....
 
OP
J

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
good point! :mug: so reverse step mash it is! i'll just leave the lid off the cooler for the first 15 minutes or so, then add my gluco...kinda solves both problems.

but back on topic @jakehoodlum don't worry about it, you'll get Brüt beer. i just had to wait for my last batch to drop from 1.005 to 1.000 for two days, but it got there....
Thank you @bracconiere this thread has been really helpful
 

Jtvann

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
1,324
Reaction score
469
I’ve always pitched gluco and yeast at the same time. Fermenting in my garage, which is occasionally below freezing. Temps are a little wonky at the start before active fermentation started, but mine just hit its final gravity today. I think I pitched yeast and gluco at 62 degrees and slowly ramped up temps as it went.
 

Attachments

OP
J

jakehoodlum

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
Messages
30
Reaction score
1
I’ve always pitched gluco and yeast at the same time. Fermenting in my garage, which is occasionally below freezing. Temps are a little wonky at the start before active fermentation started, but mine just hit its final gravity today. I think I pitched yeast and gluco at 62 degrees and slowly ramped up temps as it went.
Wow that is a nice clean graph! Well that is good to hear, i pitched my gluco and yeast in at 65F or so. My activity didn't kick off until the 36 hour mark or so, but now it is humming along. Looks like yours did the same. I am surprised to see that it took about 8 days to reach FG, I guess that gap between 1.010 and .998 just takes a while. I will plan on leaving mine in the primary for 2-3 weeks and validating FG before dry hopping to ensure its nice and finished.
Thanks for this reply it was really helpful
 

day_trippr

"Now brewing exclusively with Hydrohydroxic Acid"
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
35,188
Reaction score
17,147
Location
Stow, MA
Holy cow! Eight days to 1.000? The gravity fell off a building!

Cheers! :D
 
Top