BrunDog 50A eRig - no HLT for me!

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

When I used to work in a dairy plant, we would "push" the milk out of the pipes & heat exchanger using water. There was an optical sensor which would see when the color of the milk was starting to fade, and would dump the stream at that point.

Seems like you could do something similar: run sparge water until the specific gravity hit a target, then stop sparging. You would have a lot of water still in the grains, but at that point, it should have rinsed most of the sugars out. All we would need to automate this process would be an inline specific gravity meter...hmm...seems like a good suggestion for your next experiment!

 

[thekraken]

Sounds to me like you're describing fly sparging.

 

[BrunDog]

When I used to work in a dairy plant, we would "push" the milk out of the pipes & heat exchanger using water. There was an optical sensor which would see when the color of the milk was starting to fade, and would dump the stream at that point.



Seems like you could do something similar: run sparge water until the specific gravity hit a target, then stop sparging. You would have a lot of water still in the grains, but at that point, it should have rinsed most of the sugars out. All we would need to automate this process would be an inline specific gravity meter...hmm...seems like a good suggestion for your next experiment!

Interestingly enough, I have been researching pH and SG process measurement. pH is easy enough and I have integrated a pH sensor into BC. The right probe can handle the mash fluid temps temps. On the other hand, SG is tricky. I have scoured the bowels of the Internet to find an inexpensive solution without much success. I have a concept in mind but I need to run some bench tests to gauge its accuracy and feasibility. I would love to have SH and pH on screen and avoid doing testing these manually!

 

[BrunDog]

One additional note: I have found that with normal ABV beer mashes, I don’t need to measure SG at any point... the runnings into the BK are always above 1.010 and the pH ok. When the beer gets lower in OG target, say <1.038 the late runnings might cross the threshold.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

An Inline refractometer sounds like the most likely solution but probably not within a homebrewing budget!

I have found the same thing as you: I don't need to monitor SG of my runnings either; I always hit my target volume before I get too low on the SG or high on the pH. The simplest solution for automating the reverse mash & sparge would be to measure kettle volume and stop sparge water flow once the target volume was reached. If you sparge slowly and have a good false bottom to distribute the sparge water evenly, you shouldn't get any channeling. I really don't see any downsides doing that except cleaning out the mash tun will be harder with all that water in the grains...unless you could add enough water to liquefy the mixture and then pump the grain/water mixture out! Automated mash tun cleaning!

 

[BrunDog]

Normally I add sparge water until the volume dictated by BeerSmith is used. Then I just continue to drain the MLT until my boil volume is achieved. This always leaves about 3/4 inch of water left in the MLT. I figured that BeerSmith’s magic is good stuff and never considered sparging continuously until the boil volume was achieved. Should be ok to do, but as you said, makes more work for clean-up.

Again though, the problem with reverse sparging is the density of wort will be higher than water, so they might try to mix rather than have a “front” of water moving the sweet wort toward the exit.

 

[BrunDog]

Btw I have contemplated adding a 2” or larger TC to the bottom of the kettle in order to have a manual dump valve for cleaning! Lazy but cool!

 

[jcav]

Having the gravity and ph readings tested automatically and on the screen would be hot! I know with some experimenting and time you could make this happen!

John

 

[Nessie]

Wow! There's a lot going on here! Great build, thanks for sharing. I'll have to come back to a few ideas shown here once I have finished my current build. So much learning to do!

 

[thekraken]

Along with BruControl changes, I finally got around to adding liquid level sensing to my Boil Kettle.
...
Now, one problem with this layout is there is tubing that has air in it. It will be sensitive to temperature changes, and admittedly as I sit here writing this, I am seeing some creep as a result. I will report back after more use!

Are you still seeing some creep? How bad is it, do you account for it? How long is your length of tube? Would you make any changes? I assume the shorter the tube, the less the creep. Would rigid tubing help?

Do you have a link to the SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow?

Sure. Electrically, there are three connections. Ground on the sensor is tied to system ground, which the micro-controller is also tied to. +5V on the sensor is tied to +5V output of the controller (or 5V power supply). The output of the sensor is tied to an analog input of the controller. The capacitors were added to smooth (filter) any ambient electrical noise.

What size caps did you use? Is this your schem: http://brucontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BruControl-Analog-Sensor-Schematic.pdf ?

Happy to help! One point of concern regarding changing the T to a cross and connecting the sensor airgap tube there... when liquid flows through the port, the pressure will drop (depending on the flow rate and relative restrictions) and causing invalid readings.

I had the idea to actually use this as a flow *detection* sensor, or flow switch, as a safety check for RIMS in lieu of an actual flow meter. I've never liked that the cheap plastic one I use isn't food rated and its temp limit is less than boiling.

Finally, how accurate are the volume readings during a boil? I assume the more vigorous the boil the more noisy the signal?

 

[augiedoggy]

An Inline refractometer sounds like the most likely solution but probably not within a homebrewing budget!

I have found the same thing as you: I don't need to monitor SG of my runnings either; I always hit my target volume before I get too low on the SG or high on the pH. The simplest solution for automating the reverse mash & sparge would be to measure kettle volume and stop sparge water flow once the target volume was reached. If you sparge slowly and have a good false bottom to distribute the sparge water evenly, you shouldn't get any channeling. I really don't see any downsides doing that except cleaning out the mash tun will be harder with all that water in the grains...unless you could add enough water to liquefy the mixture and then pump the grain/water mixture out! Automated mash tun cleaning!

I fly sparge in less than 10 minutes using the method above and still manage to average 86% eff...

I have however noticed that if I leave additional sparge water in my mash tun after I have reached to desired amount in my boil kettle and test the gravity of the runnings at both that point as well as after the boil when cleaning my system and dumping whats left in the MT, that later the srm of the sparge water as well as gravity are higher so I could have effectively squeezed more efficiency from my system if I would have batch sparged at the cost of an hours time or so. This is not really a surprise to me since it makes sense but still feel its worth mentioning as Ive tested it more than once.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Btw I have contemplated adding a 2” or larger TC to the bottom of the kettle in order to have a manual dump valve for cleaning! Lazy but cool!

My BK is an inverted keg... what I had my welder do is put in an offset dump port in the original top of the keg next to the oem hole for the spear. The offset port is where I draw off the wort (after whirlpooling) and the original port acts as the dump for all of the trub!

It is nice to have this feature!

 

[BrunDog]

Are you still seeing some creep? How bad is it, do you account for it? How long is your length of tube? Would you make any changes? I assume the shorter the tube, the less the creep. Would rigid tubing help?

Do you have a link to the SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow?



What size caps did you use? Is this your schem: http://brucontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BruControl-Analog-Sensor-Schematic.pdf ?




I had the idea to actually use this as a flow *detection* sensor, or flow switch, as a safety check for RIMS in lieu of an actual flow meter. I've never liked that the cheap plastic one I use isn't food rated and its temp limit is less than boiling.

Finally, how accurate are the volume readings during a boil? I assume the more vigorous the boil the more noisy the signal?

Not really seeing any creep that matters... as the brew goes on it changes slightly but it is generally insignificant. I don't think the tubing matters as it is just holding air. The key with this type system is to keep the air in the tube from cooling down. This would cause the air in the tube to contract and draw some liquid up the tube, which would change the pressure and ultimately the reading, albeit slightly.

I got the barb off ebay, sorry I don't have the link handy.

Yes that schematic is good. A small 10 pF ceramic in parallel with the polarized cap wouldn't hurt, too. Whether these are needed are dependent on your system and its associated electrical noise. BC has digital smoothing built in to help reduce rapid variation in the readings.

You can use a flow switch or meter for RIMS protection - your choice.

The boil doesn't really affect the readings. The bubbles escaping are well above the measuring port, so there is not much to disrupt the pressure there. It seems to be dead-on accurate with my sight gauge (within a quart or so), so it works well IMO. Full disclosure: while this solution works great, my inner quality spirit feels like it is a little kludgy. I would like to have something more industrial. That said, I may have an update using a direct contact type sensor soon - stay tuned. But honestly, if you don't mind a little rubber tube hanging off the side of your kettle, this solution is excellent, especially give the net cost of about $30 for the parts.

 

[BrunDog]

I fly sparge in less than 10 minutes using the method above and still manage to average 86% eff...

I have however noticed that if I leave additional sparge water in my mash tun after I have reached to desired amount in my boil kettle and test the gravity of the runnings at both that point as well as after the boil when cleaning my system and dumping whats left in the MT, that later the srm of the sparge water as well as gravity are higher so I could have effectively squeezed more efficiency from my system if I would have batch sparged at the cost of an hours time or so. This is not really a surprise to me since it makes sense but still feel its worth mentioning as Ive tested it more than once.

There is always some sugar left in the grains, but getting it out may not help your beer increase its OG. As you pull lower gravity runnings out near the end of the sparge, you are actually diluting your boil gravity.

I do agree that the sparge can be faster. In my circumstance, I sparge typically with ~30 quarts (5 gal batch). At around 1 quart per min that means 30 mins of sparging. Then draining happens at about the same rate, taking another 15 minutes or so. I would like to run a test to sparge faster and see what happens. Maybe I will try sparging at 2 qpm or start at 1 then ramp-up.

Side note: Following my reversed mash test, I have been thinking about sparge rings. It makes sense to me that the incoming wort/water is distributed to the top of the grain bed via a ring, but why do we pull it back out via a single point (under the FB)? I wonder if a ring under the FB would help uniformly draw recirculating wort through all the grain. I know you use a mesh under your FB, I am considering trying something similar.

 

[BrunDog]

My BK is an inverted keg... what I had my welder do is put in an offset dump port in the original top of the keg next to the oem hole for the spear. The offset port is where I draw off the wort (after whirlpooling) and the original port acts as the dump for all of the trub!

It is nice to have this feature!

Very cool! If we could eliminate the FB, the spent grain could be washed out really easily!

 

[augiedoggy]

There is always some sugar left in the grains, but getting it out may not help your beer increase its OG. As you pull lower gravity runnings out near the end of the sparge, you are actually diluting your boil gravity.

I do agree that the sparge can be faster. In my circumstance, I sparge typically with ~30 quarts (5 gal batch). At around 1 quart per min that means 30 mins of sparging. Then draining happens at about the same rate, taking another 15 minutes or so. I would like to run a test to sparge faster and see what happens. Maybe I will try sparging at 2 qpm or start at 1 then ramp-up.

Side note: Following my reversed mash test, I have been thinking about sparge rings. It makes sense to me that the incoming wort/water is distributed to the top of the grain bed via a ring, but why do we pull it back out via a single point (under the FB)? I wonder if a ring under the FB would help uniformly draw recirculating wort through all the grain. I know you use a mesh under your FB, I am considering trying something similar.

I was only pointing it that if I batch sparged and waited, according to the tests Ive done so far, I would get a higher OG from the sparge water. which is odd because the sparge water is 170 degrees but I have found that longer contact time in the MT does increase both srm and gravity. The factor here is time though and honestly im ok with 86%

Also yes I use a braided mesh ring that covers the entire circumference perimeter of my MT under the FB... I find that enough grain makes it through the fb to essentially fill in the area inside of this ring with grain but I have thought about making some sort of solid puck to fill the center area on my mt so the braided ring is the lowest area and that would possibly net me more efficiency with less wasted/diluted wort at the end. it would have to be a large piece of food grade material that wouldnt try to float to work though..

 

[storunner13]

BrunDog-- How are you managing all your 24v outputs? Do you have a terminal bar or are you daisy chaining the positive and negative terminals? Just a concern I had as I've been working through my build plan/accumulation.

 

[BrunDog]

Hi... sorry for the long delay. I kept trying to reply via the app but it kept crashing...

Anyhoo... yes, you uncovered an ugly truth about my build. I have the 5V, 12V, 24V, and Ground "buses" tied together inside the wire ducts via soldered connections in a star configuration, covered in heat shrink. Not the most professional, but wiring buses takes large amount of space and DIN rail terminals. I just didn't have the space to include such, though if building from scratch I would look to find a way!

 

[BeardedBrews]

I have scoured the bowels of the Internet to find an inexpensive solution without much success. I have a concept in mind but I need to run some bench tests to gauge its accuracy and feasibility. I would love to have SH and pH on screen and avoid doing testing these manually!

Would it be feasible to fabricate a continuous sampling lid that would seal over the sample pan on the budget Milwaukee unit? I'm thinking something like a flat sheet of polycarbonate that was milled with a cavity connected to threaded ports of some sort, then silicone glued onto the meter.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Z4IN58/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That still leaves the question of reading the data into BruControl, but if the moving wort was readable with their crystal then you may be able to steal a signal from inside the unit somewhere.

 

[BrunDog]

Good idea in concept. I thought about these units as they are readily available and seem to be knock-offs of each other. I am not too confident it would be easy to get a calibrated, sensible signal from the refractometer section, and I doubt the micro on board has an external communication bus set up and ready to go. I would love to be wrong about that, but I don't have the time or heart to pursue this blindly. It would be interested in finding just the crystal sensor alone, but alas I could not find any off the shelf.

 

[storunner13]

How is your motorized mill working these days? After holding a drill to crush a (literal) ton of grain I'm growing weary. I'm thinking this will be an easy and inexpensive way to put the drill away.

 

[BrunDog]

I love it. I have ground ~15 batches on it, and I did need to replace the power supply once, but it has worked reallywell. The only caveat: it is no speed demon. It takes a good 8 minutes to mill grain for a 5 gal batch, but this means nothing as I am getting other things ready while it does it’s thing.

 

[HopRodGarage]

Just read the whole thread now. Awesome build!

Have you had any problems with a ticking sound from the valves? I think I got some noise in my system that I will try to figure out by mounting a resistor between 0V and ground.

 

[BrunDog]

BrunDog-- How are you managing all your 24v outputs? Do you have a terminal bar or are you daisy chaining the positive and negative terminals? Just a concern I had as I've been working through my build plan/accumulation.

Sorry I overlooked this...

Good question. I️ currently am using “buses” of +24 and GND lines as bundles are soldered/heat shrinked. They reside inside the wire ducts. This is not a best practice in truth. Legit terminal buses should be used, but of course that takes space and money. Actually, the money isn’t significant, but the space is. In my next build I will use stacked/high density DIN rail terminal blocks for these buses.

 

[BrunDog]

Just read the whole thread now. Awesome build!

Have you had any problems with a ticking sound from the valves? I think I got some noise in my system that I will try to figure out by mounting a resistor between 0V and ground.

Which valves are you referring to? What voltage are yours? What wiring type?

 

[HopRodGarage]

Which valves are you referring to? What voltage are yours? What wiring type?

Mine are 24V with CR03 wiring.

 

[BrunDog]

Mine are also 24V but I think the wiring style is CR02 (+24 is switched). PM me if you want to compare notes more closely. I can send you my spec sheets etc.

 

[BrunDog]

Juicy!

 

[swimIan]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but are you using a LWD or ULWD 5500 watt element?

 

[BrunDog]

I have a ripple foldback in the BK. That’s a ULWD I believe (not sure what the threshold is). I also straight foldback in the RIMs tube (but not for long... consider that a hint!), I assume that’s LWD.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Brundog,

I've got another random question for you: Can you pump fluid backwards through the Adafruit flow meter or does it have an internal check to prevent reverse flow?

Thanks!

 

[BrunDog]

No check valve. You can pump backwards and it will record flow (positively, not negatively). I don’t know if the accuracy would be the same in both directions.

Also, in order to record flow direction we would need a dual-signal flowmeter which I don’t even know exists.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Thanks! I wasn’t too worried about reverse flow accuracy. If I put the flow meter on the outlet of my mash recirc pump, I wanted the ability to use a 2nd pump to pump backwards through it in the case of a stuck mash. Sounds like it will work.

 

[BrunDog]

On my rig, I have a switch on screen called “Auto Mash”. When it is on, the current mash level (sensed via the pressure sensor) is compared to the level immediately after dough-in. If the level is less than a certain amount from the initial, the mash is beginning to stick, and the proportional valve is closed slightly. If the level remains good, the valve is opened slightly. Minimum and maximum valve openings are set in ensuring the flow stays within a certain range, and a quick 1x alarm sounds if the valve reaches the minimum closing.

I never get a stuck mash with this system. I think the key with a stuck mash is to avoid the snowball effect that happens when pulling a vacuum below the grain bed - it sets the bed progressively harder, making it more stuck.

It is incredible to watch how the valve opens more and more through the first 15 minutes. Demonstrates how the mash really loosens up over time following dough-in.

Shameless plug: this is the kind of automation that only a script type system can provide. Step based systems either don’t have enough steps or are very difficult to program for tasks like these.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Right now, I pretty much do the same thing manually with a ball valve and watching the level column on the mash tun. It generally takes about 10 minutes before I can go full open on the valve.

I really want to go to automatic control in the future; what are the details on that proportional valve? I was considering replacing my mash pump with a DC pump so I could adjust pump speed. If the proportional valve is less expensive, I might go that route.

What is your opinion on the best method for flow control?

 

[TexasWine]

On my rig, I have a switch on screen called “Auto Mash”. When it is on, the current mash level (sensed via the pressure sensor) is compared to the level immediately after dough-in. If the level is less than a certain amount from the initial, the mash is beginning to stick, and the proportional valve is closed slightly. If the level remains good, the valve is opened slightly. Minimum and maximum valve openings are set in ensuring the flow stays within a certain range, and a quick 1x alarm sounds if the valve reaches the minimum closing.

I love this approach.

 

[BrunDog]

Proportional valve is about $125. 24VDC supply and a 0-5V control signal. We create that by converting the MEGA PWM output to analog with a resistor and a capacitor (low pass filter). The schematic is on the website (I think!).

I think you can accomplish the similar performance with a DC motor. You would need a MOS-FET board to switch the PWM signal into the motor. @augiedoggy does this successfully. It’s definitely less expensive than the proportional valve but the control is not quite as consistent.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Depending on what pump I would buy, the cost seems similar no matter which way I go. Given that I already have an AC pump and proportional valve control is more consistent, that seems to be the best approach.

Got a link for that valve? I can't find any in that price range when I search...

 

[BrunDog]

PM me with your email and I will send them to you.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Can a proportional valve function as an isolation valve when you need to prevent flow? In my field, flow control valves and isolation valves are two different things. However, if this is just a ball valve with an analog positioner on it, it should be able to act as an isolation valve when necessary, especially since the pumps we use don't put out that much pressure.