Bru'n Water pH very low compared to other softwares?

[ScrewyBrewer]

I just don't feel such threads as this should be the battleground.
Rev.

Don't get me wrong if I thought this was a battleground I wouldn't have taken the time to reply in the first place. Maybe I missed the point of this thread and I thought I was being helpful. If anyone is posting in the science forum and thinking they're not going be prodded for details then I'm not sure what to say. Like I said maybe I just misread the initial post.

 

[ajdelange]

I feel like some in the thread (not naming anyone specifically) are trying to discount things just so the results can better meet their idea of what it should/can/can't be.

Point me somewhere where people don't do that. Please!

...I just can't see how 13° maximum difference between calibration temp and sample temp could make all that much a difference.

It shouldn't. That is what ATC is for - to compenste between differences in calibration solution and sample temperatures. But the efficacy of ATC depends on an electrode parameter called the isoelectric pH. If it isn't 7 ATC will introduce error. As the error is quite insensitive to pHi and as in modern electrodes pHi is pretty well controlled the magnitude of the error is going to be small - insignificant except in cases where you are shooting for the kind of precision that I spoke of in No. 26; the kind of precision we want when trying to validate or reject a hypothesis.

But also keep in mind that true pH, however accurately or inaccurately the meter measures it, changes by from 0.05 to 0.1 when temperature changes by 18 °F

 

[dmr]

My Imperial Spicy Pumpkin Stout came in at pH 5.05.

pH reading is always taken at 30 min and cooled to at least 85F

No, I don't mineralize on the high side - usually between 0 - 0.5gr/gallon on average (gypsum, calcium chloride, baking soda) depending on beer style of course.

I double batch sparge.

It looks like you might have some useful mash pH info. Would you consider posting such results to the thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wanted-mash-ph-measurements.661544/ ? Cheers!

 

[Rev2010]

It looks like you might have some useful mash pH info. Would you consider posting such results to the thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wanted-mash-ph-measurements.661544/ ? Cheers!

Hiya @dmr, sorry to respond back late. I'd love to help but the issue I have is to assist I would need to give my recipe information out. Being that I dream of opening up a brewpub someday I'm a little hesitant to share some of my recipes. Yesterday I re-brewed the same beer that I earlier had mentioned Bru'n Water gave a prediction of 4.96pH with my added water treatments when I brewed it prior. It's an Imperial Spicy Pumpkin Stout. As mentioned last time I brewed it my meter read that beer at 5.05pH - so about .09pH higher than predicted. This time I adjusted my water treatments to be within the ballpark of the "Black Full" profile in Bru'n Water. I also used slaked lime to up the pH. Bru'n Water gave me a prediction of 5.35. I wanted 5.4 - 5.45 but I figured since it was a little lower in prediction prior I should probably hit my desired pH and at the worst it shouldn't be lower than 5.35 which is also fine. I took the sample at 30 minutes and cooled it down to 75° which was the same temp as the calibration solutions. The meter read 5.43pH, exactly where I wanted it. This reading is .08pH higher than Bru'n Water's prediction. Overall, it's been working very well for me.


Rev.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hiya @dmr, sorry to respond back late. I'd love to help but the issue I have is to assist I would need to give my recipe information out. Being that I dream of opening up a brewpub someday I'm a little hesitant to share some of my recipes. Yesterday I re-brewed the same beer that I earlier had mentioned Bru'n Water gave a prediction of 4.96pH with my added water treatments when I brewed it prior. It's an Imperial Spicy Pumpkin Stout. As mentioned last time I brewed it my meter read that beer at 5.05pH - so about .09pH higher than predicted. This time I adjusted my water treatments to be within the ballpark of the "Black Full" profile in Bru'n Water. I also used slaked lime to up the pH. Bru'n Water gave me a prediction of 5.35. I wanted 5.4 - 5.45 but I figured since it was a little lower in prediction prior I should probably hit my desired pH and at the worst it shouldn't be lower than 5.35 which is also fine. I took the sample at 30 minutes and cooled it down to 75° which was the same temp as the calibration solutions. The meter read 5.43pH, exactly where I wanted it. This reading is .08pH higher than Bru'n Water's prediction. Overall, it's been working very well for me.


Rev.

What would your mash pH have been without the addition of the Ca(OH)2?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

When you chose to raise your pH to 5.4 via the use of slaked lime did you give any consideration to the potential ramifications of this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/ca-oh-2-and-bicarbonate-levels-question.659109/

 

[Rev2010]

When you chose to raise your pH to 5.4 via the use of slaked lime did you give any consideration to the potential ramifications of this thread?

I used 1.5gram of slaked lime. Without it Bru'n Water predicts a pH of 5.14. As for that thread, can you simply tell me what ramifications you are referring to as there are a lot of long posts in that thread.


Rev.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I used 1.5gram of slaked lime. Without it Bru'n Water predicts a pH of 5.14. As for that thread, can you simply tell me what ramifications you are referring to as there are a lot of long posts in that thread.

The issue is that potentially MpH and BW may not be handling Ca(OH)2 correctly.

But since you used it per guidance and hit 5.4 pH there is always the possibility that two wrongs make a right, whereby both the predicted mash pH and the predicted Ca(OH)2 required to bring it to 5.4 pH are wrong, but you hit pH 5.4 anyway. Or there is also the possibility that both AJ and myself have missed something and thereby gotten Ca(OH)2 wrong in the thread I pointed you to.

 

[dmr]

Hiya @dmr, sorry to respond back late. I'd love to help but the issue I have is to assist I would need to give my recipe information out. Being that I dream of opening up a brewpub someday I'm a little hesitant to share some of my recipes. Yesterday I re-brewed the same beer that I earlier had mentioned Bru'n Water gave a prediction of 4.96pH with my added water treatments when I brewed it prior. It's an Imperial Spicy Pumpkin Stout. As mentioned last time I brewed it my meter read that beer at 5.05pH - so about .09pH higher than predicted. This time I adjusted my water treatments to be within the ballpark of the "Black Full" profile in Bru'n Water. I also used slaked lime to up the pH. Bru'n Water gave me a prediction of 5.35. I wanted 5.4 - 5.45 but I figured since it was a little lower in prediction prior I should probably hit my desired pH and at the worst it shouldn't be lower than 5.35 which is also fine. I took the sample at 30 minutes and cooled it down to 75° which was the same temp as the calibration solutions. The meter read 5.43pH, exactly where I wanted it. This reading is .08pH higher than Bru'n Water's prediction. Overall, it's been working very well for me.

Hi Rev2010,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your wanting to not give out your recipes. Perhaps you'd be willing to send the info to me via PM or email? I would encourage you to do this, as I feel like my next version of MpH will be rather more reliable at predicting mash pH values than what is currently available, and as it will always be free for anyone to use, you will have full access to it.

I certainly will not share your recipes with anyone. Please think about it. Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

I really don't think you have to worry that sharing recipes is going to deflect you from the path to the riches you hope to accrue from a brew pub. While recipe is, of course, important, it is not recipe that makes good beer but process.

 

[Rev2010]

path to the riches you hope to accrue from a brew pub

Who said anything about getting rich? No need to be snarky. My brother owned a bar that I worked in for a couple of years. I know very well how difficult it is.


Rev.

 

[Big Monk]

Who said anything about getting rich? No need to be snarky. My brother owned a bar that I worked in for a couple of years. I know very well how difficult it is.


Rev.

Having communicated with A.J. many, many times, and realizing the limitations in text, i'd think he was joking more than snarking.

The point is, IMHO, that recipes don't make good beer. Good brewers with good process make good beer.

 

[ajdelange]

No intention to be snarky but not really joking either - perhaps more moved by the irony of someone thinking a secret recipe is going to make a difference in brew pub success. This sense of irony was probably stimulated by the fact that earlier in the afternoon phrases like "Ten or twenty cents on the dollar" were bandied about by my financial adviser with respect to a brew pub investment. And you would think this place is doing well if you walked into it.

The remarks about process should be taken seriously, though. That, not recipe, is, IMO the secret to good beer. And then, as you are evidently aware, good beer is only a small part of the recipe for success in the bar biz.

 

[Rev2010]

perhaps more moved by the irony of someone thinking a secret recipe is going to make a difference in brew pub success.

But see I never implied that, you assumed that is my reasoning. I don't want to share my recipes right now until I've used them in an established business. At that point I am happy to openly share them. I do very well understand that process is the most important, no argument there, and my feeling on the matter may indeed be flawed. But for now, I don't really stand to lose anything by not sharing them.


Rev.

 

[dmr]

But for now, I don't really stand to lose anything by not sharing them.

I've asked already, and so I won't push, but I'd argue that your loss will be the development of brewing tools that are less accurate than they might be otherwise. Cheers!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I just came across this and I do agree that most spreadsheets and online software are higher in the finished ph including my own, mine is based on srm of the grain and water amounts similar to easy water and Mash made easy, I know this is an older thread has there been any reasons or conclusions

 

[Peebee]

Thanks for awakening this thread @Ozarks Mountain Brewery, I hadn't come across it in my recent wanderings and it has bags of useful pointers (from the "big boys" in water fiddling too).

Like you, I'd been finding predicted mash pH from various "calculators" suggest too high. Contrary to this thread's title it's Bru'n Water that comes out best for me, but even it doesn't dip as low, pH-wise, as I'm experiencing. I'm trying to come up with a more "empirical" calculator (by results, not by mathematical formula). That I can then tune for my personal use; perhaps self-tune?

Currently concentrating on removing most Calcium to the boil (sparge water) in an attempt to stop the mash pH sinking so low (it is an option in Bru'n Water ... it's not a personal fantasy which I am "known for"!). My starting water (tap) has very low alkalinity, about 7-8ppm as CaCO3 (about 9ppm as HCO3), lower than some "RO" waters (not that they're a "standard" even if most brewers seem to treat them as one), but I'm not convinced that makes any difference.

I'd really like to get that Mash-Made-Easy working for me, for reasons of my own I should add.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Thanks for awakening this thread @Ozarks Mountain Brewery, I hadn't come across it in my recent wanderings and it has bags of useful pointers (from the "big boys" in water fiddling too).

Like you, I'd been finding predicted mash pH from various "calculators" suggest too high. Contrary to this thread's title it's Bru'n Water that comes out best for me, but even it doesn't dip as low, pH-wise, as I'm experiencing. I'm trying to come up with a more "empirical" calculator (by results, not by mathematical formula). That I can then tune for my personal use; perhaps self-tune?

Currently concentrating on removing most Calcium to the boil (sparge water) in an attempt to stop the mash pH sinking so low (it is an option in Bru'n Water ... it's not a personal fantasy which I am "known for"!). My starting water (tap) has very low alkalinity, about 7-8ppm as CaCO3 (about 9ppm as HCO3), lower than some "RO" waters (not that they're a "standard" even if most brewers seem to treat them as one), but I'm not convinced that makes any difference.

I'd really like to get that Mash-Made-Easy working for me, for reasons of my own I should add.

here's mine, no documentation sorry and its a bit of a learning curve, you will need to click the edits and new to add a new water profile and settings, let me know if you have questions