Brown Ale with S-04 yeast...bitter/nutty/nasty! What happened?

[chazzman]

Odin, I agree with your thinking on this, I will admit I don't know why there is an exception for beer because wine and cider benefit from
aeration sometimes. What I read originally said something about the beer's yeast should get their O2 by eating the sugar for the most part.
I was just trying to help, not trying to upset anyone, sorry. One last thing and I hope this does not stir thins up, but the OP mentioned
about aeration before pitching, if the wort happened to be too warm or possibly hot, off flavors would result. I better make my exit here
as i did not mean to cause a stir.

 

[solbes]

I always shake just prior and just after the yeast pitch. It will not oxidize a thing, as the yeast will consume all of the oxygen in the wort as they reproduce during the lag phase. This is a good technique to do. Now after it gets going, that's a different story.

 

[chazzman]

Just after should be absolutely fine, but S04 can ""get going" pretty fast so yes probably to just after, but later in the day may not be
so good. I hope others chime in!

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Sounds like there might be a lot of problems. More details on water volumes, water source, water adjustments, gravity readings, etc. would help eliminate some of the potential problems. It may just be the case that OP does not like the flavors common to english ale strains and S04 in particular. If you do not like the ester flavors with those strains, either do not use them or ferment much cooler. I fermented a porter with S04 a few weeks ago at 62F because I didn't want too much yeast character in that particular beer. It came out fairly clean but I am not opposed to fermenting some of my English-style beers much warmer.

 

[Jayhem]

Sounds like there might be a lot of problems. More details on water volumes, water source, water adjustments, gravity readings, etc. would help eliminate some of the potential problems. It may just be the case that OP does not like the flavors common to english ale strains and S04 in particular. If you do not like the ester flavors with those strains, either do not use them or ferment much cooler. I fermented a porter with S04 a few weeks ago at 62F because I didn't want too much yeast character in that particular beer. It came out fairly clean but I am not opposed to fermenting some of my English-style beers much warmer.

Water info:

Mash: 1.3qt/lb @ 156F
Batch sparge with 180F water to bring the grainbed up to 170F during sparge.
Extract Efficiency was around 75%

Water source: Granite bedrock water well @ 380' depth. Water is average in mineral content and neutral in pH according to the water test performed when I bought my house. I've always used this water in my beers and it's great.

I'm really starting to think that nothing is wrong with the beer...I just don't like the taste of the esters produced with S-04 yeast fermented in the 66-68F range. I also realized that my beer had only been in the bottles for 18 days when I did my first taste test. I'm going to try them again at 4 weeks and see if there is any improvement and report back.

 

[14thstreet]

Jayhem, did you taste this beer along the way before bottling? I have a winter warmer (1.075, with similar ingredients) sitting on SO4 for just about 2 weeks. I rehydrated 1 single pack, expecting a gravity around 1.060, which still probably stresses the yeast a bit. On top of that, I pitched at 60F and fermentation probably got no warmer than 64F. The bulk of fermentation ended within a week. At 7-10 days the beer has that flavor you describe. I moved it to slightly warmer climes and just checked last night that this flavor is gone.

The upshoot of what I'm saying is drink samples of your beer along the process and let that dictate your schedule or course of action. However, it is quite possible that the character has changed or is adjusting to its new package. English yeasts have a tendency to do that, so it may come back around to something more drinkable...good luck!

 

[Jayhem]

Jayhem, did you taste this beer along the way before bottling? I have a winter warmer (1.075, with similar ingredients) sitting on SO4 for just about 2 weeks. I rehydrated 1 single pack, expecting a gravity around 1.060, which still probably stresses the yeast a bit. On top of that, I pitched at 60F and fermentation probably got no warmer than 64F. The bulk of fermentation ended within a week. At 7-10 days the beer has that flavor you describe. I moved it to slightly warmer climes and just checked last night that this flavor is gone.

The upshoot of what I'm saying is drink samples of your beer along the process and let that dictate your schedule or course of action. However, it is quite possible that the character has changed or is adjusting to its new package. English yeasts have a tendency to do that, so it may come back around to something more drinkable...good luck!

Thanks for the response. I tasted the beer before priming and bottling and it tasted good. It didn't seem to develop this harsh nutty/bitter taste till it was carbonated. I'm really hoping that a 2-month bottle condition at 70F will at least make it drinkable.

 

[k47k]

How can this be a common problem and people still use S04?

At a recent competition (357 entries) i won several categories with beers made with S04:
-3rd best of show (American Pale Ale)
-1st Place Special Bitter
-2nd Place Extra Special Bitter
-1st Place American Pale Ale

i think the yeast i fine, maybe operator error?

for those interested here is how i handle the yeast.

1. rehydrate per the instructions. i do this 30 minutes before pitching. the yeast will foam up, i pitch when it is at peak foam. the yeast takes off quickly this way. if you wait an hour plus after the foam subsides there is more lag time. Not sure it makes a difference.

2. pitch around 58-60 degrees

3. maintain 60-62 degrees for a few days. I tape my johnson controler probe to the carboy, insulated with folded up paper towel.

4. when fermentation starts slowing down, ramp up to 68-70.

5. hold at 68-70 until beer is done.

6. total primary time of 14 days.

7. cold crash, fine with gelatin. carbonate, age, collect ribbons.

i also inject pure O2 and use Wyeast beer nutrient.

 

[Jayhem]

At a recent competition (357 entries) i won several categories with beers made with S04:
-3rd best of show (American Pale Ale)
-1st Place Special Bitter
-2nd Place Extra Special Bitter
-1st Place American Pale Ale

i think the yeast i fine, maybe operator error?

for those interested here is how i handle the yeast.

1. rehydrate per the instructions. i do this 30 minutes before pitching. the yeast will foam up, i pitch when it is at peak foam. the yeast takes off quickly this way. if you wait an hour plus after the foam subsides there is more lag time. Not sure it makes a difference.

2. pitch around 58-60 degrees

3. maintain 60-62 degrees for a few days. I tape my johnson controler probe to the carboy, insulated with folded up paper towel.

4. when fermentation starts slowing down, ramp up to 68-70.

5. hold at 68-70 until beer is done.

6. total primary time of 14 days.

7. cold crash, fine with gelatin. carbonate, age, collect ribbons.

i also inject pure O2 and use Wyeast beer nutrient.

I pitched around 70F and then put my carboy in my fermentation control fridge at 60F ambient so the beer came down to 65F before high krausen stage. I kept the beer temp around 65-67F for the first few days and then left it at 67 to finish up.



I actually tasted another sample of the brown ale last night...25 days in bottles now and it's starting to clean up a bit! Definitely drinkable now. I think if I cold condition them for a couple weeks it might be good!

 

[progmac]

i'm a little slower to jump on the s-04 bashwagon. how many ounces EKG did you use? did you use a wort chiller? I have gotten tastes from that hop in young beer similar to what you're describing. It fades pretty quick, though.

 

[Odin_Brews]

Maybe you should get a glass of your beer into the hands of another homebrewer, local brewery, judge or someone. That might help to identify whether this flavor is simply S-04 and it's not for you or something else is going on etc.

 

[Jayhem]

i'm a little slower to jump on the s-04 bashwagon. how many ounces EKG did you use? did you use a wort chiller? I have gotten tastes from that hop in young beer similar to what you're describing. It fades pretty quick, though.

I only used 1/2 oz of EKG as my flavoring hop with 15 min left in the boil (11 gallon batch). 1oz of Target for bittering at 75min.

Maybe you should get a glass of your beer into the hands of another homebrewer, local brewery, judge or someone. That might help to identify whether this flavor is simply S-04 and it's not for you or something else is going on etc.

I'm going to pick up some bulk grains from a group buy tomorrow and hope to distribute a few of my beers for comments!

 

[progmac]

I only used 1/2 oz of EKG as my flavoring hop with 15 min left in the boil (11 gallon batch). 1oz of Target for bittering at 75min.

Yeah, nevermind the EKG thing, then!

 

[Odin_Brews]

Let us know what they say at the group buy, Im curious if it's a personal distate for S-04 (which I actually quite love), or if it's something else. Id join you for the tasting but VA is a bit far

 

[Odin_Brews]

So, any luck at the group buy? what's the taste say now?

 

[Jayhem]

So, any luck at the group buy? what's the taste say now?

I haven't gotten feedback yet but last night my wife and I each had a bottle of this stuff and it was at least drinkable now. Hopefully after a few more months it will mellow more.

It will be tough for me to use S04 again. Ill use Notty on my next brown ale.

 

[beargrylls]

I used S-04 in my last beer, an oatmeal stout (yooper's, actually!) and it turned out awesome. Best beer I've ever made. Fermented at about 66. I liked S-04 so much I decided to use it in a nut brown ale I brewed yesterday. It's fermenting right now at about 63, but I was shooting for about 66 so I gonna let it warm up a bit.
My first beer I had no temp control and I used notty at 72-74 and it was kinda funky/fruity. Ever since, I started controlling fermentation temp and my beers have been tasting much better.

 

[Jayhem]

I think my problem may have been in the handling of the yeast.

I made an 11 gallon batch with only one packet of S04 yeast so I made a 2.0 liter starter for the yeast which apparently is not a good idea. That's the only thing I can blame this on if the yeast is not supposed to make these nasty estery tasting beers!

 

[user 145730]

Is it possible that your off flavor could be a result a cleaning agent in your bottles?

 

[Jayhem]

Is it possible that your off flavor could be a result a cleaning agent in your bottles?

No. I have used the same method of cleaning my bottles and equipment for the last 20+ batches, no problem on other recipes.

I soak bottles overnight in Oxiclean (scent free) and then rinse well, drain and heat in the oven at 200F for 30 minutes to sanitize, cool to the touch and then immediately bottle. This works great for me.

Update on the beer: Still pretty awful. I can drink about half a bottle but once it warms up the off taste is pronounced and I dump the rest. :/

 

[progmac]

i finally started dumping bottles of a failed batch from a year ago when i need empties. that may be the fate of this beer as well

 

[moski]

I've used S-04 in several batches with no off flavors, my stout even got up to 74 during it's primary before dropping and it was great. My Irish Blond came out perfectly with S-04. And I also used a starter as I do with everything but my Hefe. The trick is a healthy starter, lots of people use starters with dry yeasts, esp. with bigger beers. I also aerate my wort after cooling to give the yeasts a further chance to grow as needed. They use oxygen in their reproduction phase, what we sometimes call lag phase, although a starter will cut down on lag greatly. My ferments have all been cleaner with a lot of healthy yeasts to do the job from the beginning. After fermentation starts don't introduce oxygen though.

I try not to be in a hurry to drink my beer or have it done in short time. I go at minimum, 2wks prime, 2wks 2nd, 2wks bottle, and condition for 2wks to a month before I expect anything out of my beers. 3 months from grain is even better. Time is your friend.

 

[jakenbacon]

S-04 is a decent yeast for the right style.... I recently brewed with it for the first time and it has a very slight clove, clean finish... Just use it properly.....

 

[Crito]

I made two IPA, one with 05 and one with 04. 04 gave a more bread aroma. Both turn out great. 05 leaves a clean taste for the dry hops.

 

[Jayhem]

I'll never understand what happened to this batch of beer but I had to dump ever bottle after I got a bottle bomb and they all ended up overcarbed even though they were finished fermenting (FG: 1.011) when I bottled.

 

[woknblues]

I've used S-04 in several batches with no off flavors, my stout even got up to 74 during it's primary before dropping and it was great. My Irish Blond came out perfectly with S-04. And I also used a starter as I do with everything but my Hefe. The trick is a healthy starter, lots of people use starters with dry yeasts, esp. with bigger beers. I also aerate my wort after cooling to give the yeasts a further chance to grow as needed. They use oxygen in their reproduction phase, what we sometimes call lag phase, although a starter will cut down on lag greatly. My ferments have all been cleaner with a lot of healthy yeasts to do the job from the beginning. After fermentation starts don't introduce oxygen though.

I try not to be in a hurry to drink my beer or have it done in short time. I go at minimum, 2wks prime, 2wks 2nd, 2wks bottle, and condition for 2wks to a month before I expect anything out of my beers. 3 months from grain is even better. Time is your friend.

We have the same view on this matter, exactly. , except I don't secondary, I just primary longer.

 

[woknblues]

I'll never understand what happened to this batch of beer but I had to dump ever bottle after I got a bottle bomb and they all ended up overcarbed even though they were finished fermenting (FG: 1.011) when I bottled.

Sounds like an infection.

I have used 04 for nearly every style of english or american ale. My LHBS was out of 05 when I went on a brewing tear earlier this year so I used it a lot. I personally think that the "English Ester/malty profile" that everyone talks about is overstated. I find this yeast to take off quick and drop like a rock, and also be plenty "heat tolerant" (low 70's, no problem). I consider it to be interchangeable with notty and 05 with a very minimal difference. I brewed BM's Centennial Blonde that would surely not be able to hide off flavors with it and fermented at 70-72 degrees. Super clean profile.

I always hydrate it. I never make a starter with 04 or 05.

 

[Ondori]

I used s-04 for my very first AG brew. I did a robust porter at 68, and it come out damn delicious. That's the only time I have used it though, so I don't have a ton of experience with it, but I got the flavors I was wanting at 68 with no issues.

 

[Jayhem]

Sounds like an infection.

In hindsight this is the only thing that explains my horrible results.

It was almost a chemical aftertaste that made your mouth pucker! Man that stuff was horrible and all my other beers have come out good or awesome!