British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[gbx]

So I've purchased the 1968 yeast before reading this thread and now I'm just considering chucking it as I'm not sure I can pull this off having to stick with bottles as I don't have a keg set up...I haven't read the whole 57 pages but is there any hope of bottle conditioning this with half decent results? I can control the ferm temps, sounds like best success is to cut fermentation a bit early but plain sugars and this yeast don't like each other. Recipe was going to be the 80% MO and 20% Crystal (with EKG hops) , with 3/4 cup corn sugar for priming.

Any thoughts or help is much appreciated

Don't chuck your 1968. Keep in mind that this thread is not for brewers who want to make the occasional british ale, its for people who are OBSESSED with them. Yes you can bottle condition with 1968 and it won't be bad, it just won't be the same as that delicious gravity sample you tasted before you bottled. On the plus side, 1968 sticks to the bottom of bottles like glue making it easy to pour bright. There isn't a perfect british yeast (is there?) and they all have something that keeps them from being perfect. wy1968 is a big diacetyl producer and changes when bottle conditioning but I would rather bottle condition with 1968 over any dry yeast out there.

 

[AT-JeffT]

So I've purchased the 1968 yeast before reading this thread and now I'm just considering chucking it as I'm not sure I can pull this off having to stick with bottles as I don't have a keg set up...I haven't read the whole 57 pages but is there any hope of bottle conditioning this with half decent results? I can control the ferm temps, sounds like best success is to cut fermentation a bit early but plain sugars and this yeast don't like each other. Recipe was going to be the 80% MO and 20% Crystal (with EKG hops) , with 3/4 cup corn sugar for priming.

Any thoughts or help is much appreciated

I have had better results with table sugar (sucrose) than corn sugar (dextrose). Also keep the vols co2 low(typical of bitters). A lot of the issue is from further attenuation in the bottle. I would try rousing the yeast multiple times to try and avoid attenuation in the bottle.

You could also try and use a dry yeast (US-05 or CBC-1)

 

[Landlord]

Great thread by the way. Apologies for the long post.

I too would love to recreate a proper bitter, - Im an expat and the reason I got into brewing is to make the sort of beer my CAMRA member old man would not poor scorn on.

So I am experimenting with fullers fermentation schedule and I have a quick question- what temp do you usually input into priming calculators using this method?
max temp during fermentation?- however I think that assumes fermentation finished at the highest temp? the northern brewer calculator says current beer temp...but cold crashing while fermenation is still going on would likely result in more residual CO2?

I ferment in my canadian basement (~48F right now but stable temps) with a brewbelt and an insulated cardbord box with lid on/off for temp control,

I followed this schedule using the wy1469 yeast with a 2litre starter, im doing an english ipa 90%mo, 4% C80, 6% tate and lyles hopped with challenger FWH, fuggles 10min and EKG 0min to around 40IBU. Got a bit excited and decided that 0.5oz of amarillo dry hop would compliment the fruity esters (not very traditional or to style but why bother making your own if you cant experiment)

Day 1 OG 1062 pitched at ~62F
I let it ride up to around 66F for the first couple days with the lid on my fermentation box-day 2 gravity 1018
Day 3 I put a cushion on top of box and got temps up to 68F
Day 4 temps got a bit crazy in there up to 74F- gravity check at 1014
so I took of my lids and got back down to 64F
Day 6 gravity check at ~1014 temps still at 64F, spooned a hole through the krausen to dry hop (mmm gravity sample- FRUITY in a good way, nice chewy mouthfeel!)
Day 8 1014 (ive still got krausen here but I heard that is normal with 1469, gravity sample tastes wonderful, not quite so fruity but still good... so I cold crashed to 48F by turning off brew belt and removing from my insulating box..)
Day 11 1012 48F- krausen is gone, gravity still great, dry hops dropped- not quite as chewy and fruity, but maybe thats cos its too cold right now).

Im ready to bottle tonight day 12.

Im guessing 64F would be a good temp for the priming calculator, but I did drop a couple of points during cold crash. Im not really worried about bottle bombs, but the difference between 48 and 74F could result in my nice bitter turning into what CAMRA members usually refer to as "giggle water" ie fizzy.

Anyway thanks for the very informative thread, the fermentation schedule has (so far based on gravity samples)resulted in my best beer to date!

Cheers

 

[progmac]

probably base the priming calc on the 68 degree temps. i imagine most of the co2 was blown off around there and when it got up to the 74s.

but if it was me, i'd probably not worry about it and just use 1/3 cup table sugar to prime.

 

[MindenMan]

I am brewing an ESB this morning, using a slightly different recipe, and after reading this thread, my technique will be different also. I usually ferment at 64-65* F for at least two weeks, sometimes three. I then slowly raise the temperature up to 70* F during the next week, and hold at 70* F for another two weeks, then cold crash until beer clears, sometimes a couple of days, sometimes four or five. I prime with 0.6 oz corn sugar per gallon, and have solid carbonation w/o being "fizzy". I will keep my process recorded as it progresses. I am interested to try a different brewing method.

I just mashed 7.0# 2-Row, 1# Special Roast, and 0.5# Crystal 120.
Current Mash Temp 154* F

 

[progmac]

I am brewing an ESB this morning, using a slightly different recipe, and after reading this thread, my technique will be different also. I usually ferment at 64-65* F for at least two weeks, sometimes three. I then slowly raise the temperature up to 70* F during the next week, and hold at 70* F for another two weeks, then cold crash until beer clears, sometimes a couple of days, sometimes four or five. I prime with 0.6 oz corn sugar per gallon, and have solid carbonation w/o being "fizzy". I will keep my process recorded as it progresses. I am interested to try a different brewing method.

I just mashed 7.0# 2-Row, 1# Special Roast, and 0.5# Crystal 120.
Current Mash Temp 154* F

What's your yeast?

 

[Falcon3]

So I've read this whole thread, and am in the process of brewing my first Ordinary Bitter-
89% MO
6% Crystal 40L
5% Munich 10L
.5oz Goldings FWH
1 oz Goldings 60mins
.5 oz Goldings 15 mins
Mash 60 mins at 151- single infusion mash (~3.4 qts/lb)
Wy1098 (I bought the yeast before I read the thread- wishing I'd gone with London III, but there's always a next time)
OG Was 1.043
It's only been three days and Hydro is reading 1.013- I followed the 64-68-64 temp profile- pitched at Mr Malty's Pro Brewer 1.0 rate from a 1L starter-
On day 2, I had a big full krausen, today (day 3) the krausen dropped almost completely- Hydro sample reveals no noticeable diacetyl or other weird flavors, although the beer is pretty yeasty and it could be getting covered up- any opinions?

Crash now and get the yeast out ASAP? Wait to clean it up for a few days and risk losing some of the character since the hydro is reading done (or within .002 of finished- and my hydro is pretty cheap anyway).

 

[bierhaus15]

Three days is far too early to cold crash a beer, no matter how complete your fermentation may seem. I would let the beer sit on the yeast cake (undisturbed) for at least a week, closer to 10 days ideally, before cold crashing. And then only once you are sure the diacetyl is cleaned up.

If there is anything to be gained from the Fullers 64-68-64 fermentation schedule, it is that it is better to pitch your yeast low and let the temp rise, than the other way around, and that a reduction in temperature post fermentation is important. However, the reduction of ferment temp from 68 to 64 is not really significant for our methods. The better method is to pitch low (64F) and let the course of fermentation rise to 68F, where it is held until final gravity is met and all precursors for diacetyl (alpha acetolactate) are converted and cleaned up by the yeast. Once that is complete, then cold crash and, ideally, keep the beer cold until serving (kegging).

That said, a handy trick to gauge whether or not your beer has had an adequate diacetyl rest before kegging or bottling, is to fill a small plastic vial or container with a sample of beer, say 100ml, put a cap on it, and place it in a water bath of around 150-160F for an hour. When complete, shake the container and then uncover it and take a sniff. If you smell diacetyl, that means there is still unconverted AAL (alpha acetolactate) in your beer. Heat and time convert AAL into diacetyl, which can then be broken down by the yeast.

 

[gbx]

That said, a handy trick to gauge whether or not your beer has had an adequate diacetyl rest before kegging or bottling, is to fill a small plastic vial or container with a sample of beer, say 100ml, put a cap on it, and place it in a water bath of around 150-160F for an hour. When complete, shake the container and then uncover it and take a sniff. If you smell diacetyl, that means there is still unconverted AAL (alpha acetolactate) in your beer. Heat and time convert AAL into diacetyl, which can then be broken down by the yeast.

This is great, thanks. I'll give this a try. And where have you been? Your blog hasn't been updated in months. I was starting to think you'd gone pro and stopped homebrewing

 

[progmac]

Three days is far too early to cold crash a beer, no matter how complete your fermentation may seem. I would let the beer sit on the yeast cake (undisturbed) for at least a week, closer to 10 days ideally, before cold crashing. And then only once you are sure the diacetyl is cleaned up.

If there is anything to be gained from the Fullers 64-68-64 fermentation schedule, it is that it is better to pitch your yeast low and let the temp rise, than the other way around, and that a reduction in temperature post fermentation is important. However, the reduction of ferment temp from 68 to 64 is not really significant for our methods. The better method is to pitch low (64F) and let the course of fermentation rise to 68F, where it is held until final gravity is met and all precursors for diacetyl (alpha acetolactate) are converted and cleaned up by the yeast. Once that is complete, then cold crash and, ideally, keep the beer cold until serving (kegging).

That said, a handy trick to gauge whether or not your beer has had an adequate diacetyl rest before kegging or bottling, is to fill a small plastic vial or container with a sample of beer, say 100ml, put a cap on it, and place it in a water bath of around 150-160F for an hour. When complete, shake the container and then uncover it and take a sniff. If you smell diacetyl, that means there is still unconverted AAL (alpha acetolactate) in your beer. Heat and time convert AAL into diacetyl, which can then be broken down by the yeast.

If you want to leave behind a bit of diacetyl, you might want to get the beer off the yeast earlier than ten days. Or if you're bottling.

 

[Falcon3]

Day 5: gravity is steady at 1.0125. Tried the diacetyl conversion test: no butter, just smells like warm beer. I'm cold crashing tonight and kegging for natural carbonation on Monday. Let you know how it goes!


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[Falcon3]

Since this is a thread on English fermentation, I've got another question. My OB was transferred to keg last night, and I'm trying natural carbing. However, the priming calculators confused me. I cold crashed the beer to 36 F. Multiple calculators told me that it currently has about 1.5 vols of co2 due to left over co2 from fermentation. The beer seems totally flAt to me. The calculators actually told me to add NEGATIVE grams of priming sugar. I ignored them and added about 0.7oz of DME in about a cup of water.

Anybody have experience with this? I understand the chilled beer will have some co2 in solution from fermentation, but if the cold crash happened after most ferm was over, shouldn't it have less co2 than the calcs are saying?


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[Beernip]

For 5 gallons you should be using 2.5oz of DME for ~1.5 volume if the beer had completely fermented out. Did you cold crash before priming? What temp are you carbing at?

 

[progmac]

Since this is a thread on English fermentation, I've got another question. My OB was transferred to keg last night, and I'm trying natural carbing. However, the priming calculators confused me. I cold crashed the beer to 36 F. Multiple calculators told me that it currently has about 1.5 vols of co2 due to left over co2 from fermentation. The beer seems totally flAt to me. The calculators actually told me to add NEGATIVE grams of priming sugar. I ignored them and added about 0.7oz of DME in about a cup of water.

Anybody have experience with this? I understand the chilled beer will have some co2 in solution from fermentation, but if the cold crash happened after most ferm was over, shouldn't it have less co2 than the calcs are saying?


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You need to use the temperature of fermentation in those calculators, not the current beer temperature.

 

[deuce40]

Exactly right, the highest temp that the beer was at after you pitched your yeast.


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[Falcon3]

Thanks for the quick replies! Ferm highest temp at 68 degrees. Cold crashed to 36. Currently warming up to about 65 for natural carbing. .I will probably wait a week for the small amount of DME to carbonate then put it on gas to finish it. On another note, the 1098 worked great. A good malt backbone with just enough bitterness to make it pleasant. I agree with the criticisms that it makes a bland beer, as malt complexity isn't really there, but it works fine if you're looking for a little cleaner beer, and I had no attenuation problems when pitching from a 1L starter. Next up is 1968 which I'm really excited about.


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[DylanTO]

I recently got a very helpful reply from the head brewer at Shepherd Neame on the topic of achieving proper English yeast character. Link below.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/brewer-english-pa-diacetyl-character-453377/

If you're too lazy to read, or don't understand the English brew terminology, , he says that they crash cool to below 40 as soon as FG is achieved.
No D-Rest at all.

The only caveat that I see is that the OG of the beer he's talking about is only 1048, so the same procedure might not be advisable for something bigger, like an english IPA. I'd actually like some input on this from anyone who knows...

 

[403Brewer]

Just another question regarding the 1968, I was planning on doing a mirror pond clone this weekend and would the same fullers ferm temp profile be recommended or just leave it at say 64-66 for 1-2 weeks and call it good? Is the White 002 yeast as temperamental as the 1968? And also would bottle conditioning an Ale give rise to the same issues as noted with people bottling ESBs? I just did an ESB with the 1968 and I wasn't that thrilled with the results, certainly a diacytel flavor to it.

 

[Schemy]

Late comer to this thread. I have used 1469 and 1098 with success, but know the beers could be so much more. I haven't read through all 50+ pages yet, so excuse me if this next question has been covered.

What water profiles are people using with these yeasts? Are you mimicking a Fullers profile or Burton and do you feel that has affected your yeast perfomance as well?

 

[progmac]

Late comer to this thread. I have used 1469 and 1098 with success, but know the beers could be so much more. I haven't read through all 50+ pages yet, so excuse me if this next question has been covered.

What water profiles are people using with these yeasts? Are you mimicking a Fullers profile or Burton and do you feel that has affected your yeast perfomance as well?

I think one of the premises of this thread is that changes like using english malts and burtonizing water weren't really doing it.

The biggest take-away for me is the 64-68-64 fermentation schedule and getting the beer off the yeast sooner rather than later.

I don't know if you're bottle conditioning or kegging, but I've found that any more than 3 weeks in the bottle at room temperature really destroys the english character and leaves you with a bland beer. those bottles that i put in my fridge after 2 or 3 weeks are night and day better compared with those that have been at 60F temps for 6+ weeks.

 

[Schemy]

I think one of the premises of this thread is that changes like using english malts and burtonizing water weren't really doing it.

The biggest take-away for me is the 64-68-64 fermentation schedule and getting the beer off the yeast sooner rather than later.

I don't know if you're bottle conditioning or kegging, but I've found that any more than 3 weeks in the bottle at room temperature really destroys the english character and leaves you with a bland beer. those bottles that i put in my fridge after 2 or 3 weeks are night and day better compared with those that have been at 60F temps for 6+ weeks.

Sorry. I'm a kegger, no bottling for this guy.

Yeah, I guess I should have stated that better. Is the combination of english malts and water additions with the ferm schedule yeilding the highest results? Or is it a case where water profile doesn't take on as big of a deal as this is more of a yeast driven result?

 

[progmac]

Sorry. I'm a kegger, no bottling for this guy.

Yeah, I guess I should have stated that better. Is the combination of english malts and water additions with the ferm schedule yeilding the highest results? Or is it a case where water profile doesn't take on as big of a deal as this is more of a yeast driven result?

My take is that it is about 90% about the yeast and 10% about the other things. Others may disagree.

If you're kegging, it is a little easier to get the flavor profile you want, since you don't have to account for the flavor changes that occur while it is carbing up. Just keg when it tastes right.

 

[Beernip]

Sorry. I'm a kegger, no bottling for this guy.

Yeah, I guess I should have stated that better. Is the combination of english malts and water additions with the ferm schedule yeilding the highest results? Or is it a case where water profile doesn't take on as big of a deal as this is more of a yeast driven result?

I'd say mix of all three. The English malts give a great malt base flavor. The ferm schedule gives a nice complex malt profile and esters. Mostly in the yeast you want one that helps create the right malt forward profile while minimizing the phonolics and esters that you don't want.

 

[Leviathan]

Does the change in bottle conditioning apply to all beers or just those of lighter color? I ask because I recently made an ESB with WLP002 that tasted perfect at bottling but upon 3 weeks aging, it seems to have developed a strange character to it. It is slight but present. Still a good beer however. I was wondering if this were to occur in a bottle conditioned stout/porter/imperial stout. Maybe the strong, dark flavors will mask any change during bottle conditioning? I've been thinking of brewing an imperial stout with this yeast.

 

[403Brewer]

Does the change in bottle conditioning apply to all beers or just those of lighter color? I ask because I recently made an ESB with WLP002 that tasted perfect at bottling but upon 3 weeks aging, it seems to have developed a strange character to it. It is slight but present. Still a good beer however. I was wondering if this were to occur in a bottle conditioned stout/porter/imperial stout. Maybe the strong, dark flavors will mask any change during bottle conditioning? I've been thinking of brewing an imperial stout with this yeast.

I would have the same question about a lighter beer, like an american ale. Apparently dechuetes uses ringwood or ESB style yeast so I want to try that...but I'm afraid of the yeast ruining the beer when I can make it very well already with 1056. I just did an ESB with the 1968 and I'm not very happy with it, but it was my first ESB and first shot with 1968 so I don't know really where it went wrong haha

 

[cwhouston]

Does the change in bottle conditioning apply to all beers or just those of lighter color? I ask because I recently made an ESB with WLP002 that tasted perfect at bottling but upon 3 weeks aging, it seems to have developed a strange character to it. It is slight but present. Still a good beer however. I was wondering if this were to occur in a bottle conditioned stout/porter/imperial stout. Maybe the strong, dark flavors will mask any change during bottle conditioning? I've been thinking of brewing an imperial stout with this yeast.

I'd keep a close eye on those bottles. Everytime I have tried to bottle with the Fullers strain it has restarted fermenting and produced gushers with a very bad taste. Ordinarily you'd think that was infection but it's an issue others find repeatedly with this yeast. I keg now and have had no issues with it, but I also learned to always mash low too.

 

[progmac]

Does the change in bottle conditioning apply to all beers or just those of lighter color? I ask because I recently made an ESB with WLP002 that tasted perfect at bottling but upon 3 weeks aging, it seems to have developed a strange character to it. It is slight but present. Still a good beer however. I was wondering if this were to occur in a bottle conditioned stout/porter/imperial stout. Maybe the strong, dark flavors will mask any change during bottle conditioning? I've been thinking of brewing an imperial stout with this yeast.

My experience is that the flavor becomes more bland as the yeast unfortunately continue to 'clean up' many flavors that are desirable in an english style beer. What you are describing sounds like something else. What was the recipe and what is the 'strange character?'

 

[progmac]

I'd keep a close eye on those bottles. Everytime I have tried to bottle with the Fullers strain it has restarted fermenting and produced gushers with a very bad taste. Ordinarily you'd think that was infection but it's an issue others find repeatedly with this yeast. I keg now and have had no issues with it, but I also learned to always mash low too.

Good point. I like to draw off a sample of the fermenting beer and put it on a stir plate to get a predicted FG. Otherwise it would be very easy to end up with bottle bombs with how these yeast flocculate.

 

[progmac]

I would have the same question about a lighter beer, like an american ale. Apparently dechuetes uses ringwood or ESB style yeast so I want to try that...but I'm afraid of the yeast ruining the beer when I can make it very well already with 1056. I just did an ESB with the 1968 and I'm not very happy with it, but it was my first ESB and first shot with 1968 so I don't know really where it went wrong haha

If you're trying to make an american ale with an english yeast, the key is probably to try keep the yeast in suspension as long as possible by ramping the temperature, rousing the yeast, etc. One of the reasons 1056 is so clean is because it stays in suspension for a long time. The english yeasts generaly aren't like that -- they eat sugar, get fat, and fall to the bottom under their own weight.

I would think that something like WLP007 would be a better choice of an english yeast for american style ales. Ringwood (wyeast 1187) is cool, but is just bonkers with the diacetyl if you're not careful.

 

[winvarin]

If you're trying to make an american ale with an english yeast, the key is probably to try keep the yeast in suspension as long as possible by ramping the temperature, rousing the yeast, etc. One of the reasons 1056 is so clean is because it stays in suspension for a long time. The english yeasts generaly aren't like that -- they eat sugar, get fat, and fall to the bottom under their own weight.

I would think that something like WLP007 would be a better choice of an english yeast for american style ales. Ringwood (wyeast 1187) is cool, but is just bonkers with the diacetyl if you're not careful.

Agreed on 007. I make a killer Amber with it. The key to going clean with an English yeast is to pitch in the middle to upper end of the recommended pitching rate, and ferment cool.

If I want a clean profile with 002 (similar to 1968) or 007, I pitch a big healthy starter, ferment around 63, rising to 66-68 as fermentation slows.

If I want more Brit character, I start my fermentation at 66-68. But you have to be careful with both as they ferment fast and hot and it's easy to lose control of temps quickly. If the temp gets out of hand, especially with 007, I have had it get too estery.


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