British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

[bierhaus15]

Well earlier in this thread I complained about 1318's sluggishness. The beer, a brown porter, turned out fantastic and earned a medal in porters for a pretty large competition. I will be using this yeast again and am happy with the final product.

Also, I used 1028 for the first time in a mild and will be using this fermentation regimen. On the gravity sample at only a few days old I can't believe how tart this is. I expect it to round out but I've never had an young sample this tart. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.

Glad to hear about 1318! It is one of the best English yeast strains available, but rarely gets any love. Also, I'd be keen to hear about your experience with 1028 once your brew is ready. I brewed with it a few times and hated it. Tasted very bready and minerally (like muddy water) for my tastes.

 

[jmo88]

Glad to hear about 1318! It is one of the best English yeast strains available, but rarely gets any love. Also, I'd be keen to hear about your experience with 1028 once your brew is ready. I brewed with it a few times and hated it. Tasted very bready and minerally (like muddy water) for my tastes.

Yes, 1318 going to be my go to for darker English beers. I believe wyeast describes it as soft, I'm not sure exactly what that means but it somehow seems a very accurate descriptor. I don't think I'm willing to abandon 1275 for bitters though. Between these two yeasts, I'm feel comfortable making all styles of English session beers.

I've read that 1028 can be minerally and throws a lot of odd flavors early in the conditioning period but I've heard some good things about it once you give it some time. I will certainly try 1318 on the mild recipe to see how they compare. I'm going to tap the 1028 mild next weekend if the sample has mellowed out.

 

[fiat84]

I've read that 1028 can be minerally and throws a lot of odd flavors early in the conditioning period but I've heard some good things about it once you give it some time. I will certainly try 1318 on the mild recipe to see how they compare. I'm going to tap the 1028 mild next weekend if the sample has mellowed out.

FYI, brew Wyeast 1028 at 68F and did not think I would like the mineral water profile but turns out it is my favorite yeast after aging two months. One of my brew pub frequenting buddies tried my 1028 brew and loved it so much he thought it was better than any brew pub beer he ever had. So yes agree 1028 is a love it or hate it flavor profile. The mineral water flavor mellowed enough after two months to become great and then keeps dissipating at the same rate with aging so drink it quick when you like it. Stashed some bottles away and at one year there is no longer any mineral profile.

 

[jmo88]

FYI, brew Wyeast 1028 at 68F and did not think I would like the mineral water profile but turns out it is my favorite yeast after aging two months. One of my brew pub frequenting buddies tried my 1028 brew and loved it so much he thought it was better than any brew pub beer he ever had. So yes agree 1028 is a love it or hate it flavor profile. The mineral water flavor mellowed enough after two months to become great and then keeps dissipating at the same rate with aging so drink it quick when you like it. Stashed some bottles away and at one year there is no longer any mineral profile.

I hope to not give it that much time, it's a mild. Was hoping to tap it between 2-3 weeks.

 

[bierhaus15]

WLP Essex Ale update: Took a gravity reading today from an ordinary bitter I brewed with this yeast about two weeks ago. Got around 75% attenuation and pretty decent flocculation, though not nearly as good as some of the other strains. Flavor is good, lots of bready malt and some tart, fruity esters. Hop bitterness and aroma comes through quite nicely, so far this strain reminds me of a cross between wy1275 and 1098. I'll probably dry hop this one for a week with EKG as it seems to let the hops come through nicely.

Kicked the keg of special bitter I made with Thames Valley II the other day and set a new record for kicking a keg at my place - 5 people, 4 hours. Was only in the keg for a week! This yeast is amazing...

 

[blackstrat5]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002?
I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

 

[bierhaus15]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002? I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

Yup. WLP002/wy1968 is notorious for causing off flavors in the bottle. I have yet to find out what exactly the cause is, but I think it has to do with some form of minor infection or the yeast reactivating with the priming sugar. I stopped bottling with this yeast altogether due to repeated problems - though not all batches had this happen to it. Also, I have had some success flocculating most the yeast out of suspension with repeated cold crashing and then bottling with some us-05 dry yeast. I only keg batches with this yeast and bottle from the keg.

Funny enough, a few members of my beer club brought up this problem at our last meeting. They were complaining how their bottles were going from fine-tasty beer to thin, over carbonated and off tasting within a few weeks. Immediately, I asked what yeast they had used... and sure enough both were 1968. In my experience, once the off flavor appears in the bottle, it does not get any better with time. Sorry!

 

[GuldTuborg]

Incidentally, I had the same thing happen with a brown ale last summer. It was the only time I've used 1968 in recent memory. I was trying out a new recipe, and at the time I thought it must have been poorly designed, or I just did something wrong. In retrospect, I bet it was this phenomenon, as the gravity samples did taste far more promising than the end product. I may have to try that recipe again sometime.

 

[smizak]

Yup. WLP002/wy1968 is notorious for causing off flavors in the bottle. I have yet to find out what exactly the cause is, but I think it has to do with some form of minor infection or the yeast reactivating with the priming sugar. I stopped bottling with this yeast altogether due to repeated problems - though not all batches had this happen to it. Also, I have had some success flocculating most the yeast out of suspension with repeated cold crashing and then bottling with some us-05 dry yeast. I only keg batches with this yeast and bottle from the keg.

Funny enough, a few members of my beer club brought up this problem at our last meeting. They were complaining how their bottles were going from fine-tasty beer to thin, over carbonated and off tasting within a few weeks. Immediately, I asked what yeast they had used... and sure enough both were 1968. In my experience, once the off flavor appears in the bottle, it does not get any better with time. Sorry!

My ESB has gone this route as well. It actually foams a little in the bottle when you crack the cap. I only added sugar to prime for 2.0 volumes. It's also been refrigerated the entire time as well, as soon as it carbed, which freaks me out.

 

[jmo88]

..Does anyone else experience odd flavors after bottle conditioning with WLP002?
I had a Brown Ale that was just awesome (great hop aroma and a full malt backbone), at bottling it was as described. Three weeks later I've got this bitterness taste and all the hop aroma has left and malt profile is hidden by this new flavor.

I'd actually like to know if anyone successfully bottle conditioned a beer with this yeast and have had it hold up for a month or more. I've had zero luck bottle conditioning with this yeast and was hit or miss with English yeasts in general. The gravity drops below the FG at bottling just after a couple weeks and gets worse. I can't imagine the yeasts turning super hungry and eating through what they previously were unable to. All signs point to an infection. But why doesn't other beers with American yeast or some other strain have this problem? My take on this has always been that bottling is hard to do without introducing some foreign microbe or wild yeast. Isn't it possible that 1968 has a hard time keeping these infections at bay during bottling, more so than other stains. Maybe the growth phase of primary fermentation is enough to stave off any infection but the lack of growth, at least when this yeast is concerned, during bottle conditioning is unable to prevent wild yeasts taking hold? I think it's more simple than a yeast reaction to simple sugar. These sugars are used all the time in the primary ferment of bitters.

Just sharing my thoughts and guesses about this. I certainly have nothing scientific to back up this.

Maybe we should just ask one of the labs?

 

[GuldTuborg]

I honestly have no idea, but with English yeasts being as flocculent as they are, I wonder of the racking process doesn't restart fermentation to a degree. I think I may fill one or two bottles with no priming sugar, and then see if they drop gravity some after a couple weeks. It won't rule out the infection hypothesis, but it may rule out the simple sugar idea. I may condition some bottles cold (for an extended period) and then some on the warm side, as most people do (and as I usually do). Perhaps the temperature change for bottle conditioning restarts something.

I suppose infection could be ruled out if the gravity only drops a few points, initially, then stabilizes. A bacteria or wild yeast infection would generally result in significant gravity drop over time, no? I guess it's possible, but I have a hard time thinking the yeast makes for that bad/susceptible of an environment.

 

[solavirtus]

Edit: It was 1098 I was thinking of, not 1968. Sorry all.

 

[smizak]

Thinking about how Fullers carries out the fermentation, and how beers were conditioned cool in casks, maybe in some weird way we don't understand the Fullers yeast has adapted and been conditioned to behave this way. I like GuldTuborg's idea about bottling without sugar and seeing what happens.

 

[WoofdogABC]

Does anyone have perspective on whether the experiences on fermentation temp. variation and shorter primary timing relate to all ales commonly brewed in britain as real ale, e.g. scottish maltier styles, milds, ipa's, plus less common styles?

 

[bierhaus15]

Regarding wlp002/1968 and bottle conditioning, I have had a few bottle conditioned batches that did not develop off flavors and become overcarbonated - though I have had over a dozen batches do just that, which makes me think the problem is infection related. Yet, at least in my case, the beers pretty much went from being "perfect" in the bottle to overcarbonated and cidery-tart tasting overnight. One would think a true infection would not impact a beer so quickly? I noticed a pretty large gravity drop in the beer too.

Also, I once asked the head brewer of my local ringwood brewery about carbonating English ales and his response was pretty much that high flocculating, estery yeasts do not carbonate well. He didn't mention anything about off flavors, though did reiterate that most English yeasts produce beer that is intented to be consumed within 2-3 weeks of fermentation - none of this "three weeks primary, three weeks in the bottle" before you can drink it crap. I know a guy that works at a yeast lab, I'll shoot him an email about this problem and see if I can get a worthwhile response. Though I'm glad to hear other people have encountered this problem too...

 

[GuldTuborg]

Fuller's bottle conditions their 1845, which is a fantastic beer, and makes the journey to the US with ease. They clearly must know something of bottle conditioning with their yeast. I'll write to the brewmaster and see what he/she has to say on the matter.

Edit: OK, I've tried several times to use their form to contact the brewmaster, and nothing will go through as I keep getting a "Bad email address" message. Can anyone else use their form successfully?

 

[SwampassJ]

Has anyone tried using dme or saved wort to prime with 1968?

 

[a_potter]

I was just listening to Jamil on an old podcast about yeast washing and he was saying that yeast definately adapts to brewery conditions. He suggests that you aren't even getting the best the yeast has to offer till at least 3 repitches. He says the yeast will adapt to your brewing after. The thing about a brewery like Fuller's or other old breweries like it, they have been repitching for decades with the same strain. I'd be suprised if there was something the didn't know about it.

 

[smizak]

most English yeasts produce beer that is intented to be consumed within 2-3 weeks of fermentation - none of this "three weeks primary, three weeks in the bottle" before you can drink it crap.

Amen.

That keeps popping up from very experienced brewers I've met and read about when discussing English ales.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Amen.

That keeps popping up from very experienced brewers I've met and read about when discussing English ales.

That almost makes me want to give up trying to make low gravity English ales, at least until I've invested in some kegging equipment. Do stronger beers fare better (English barleywines and such)? I suppose I'll find out when I bottle my 11/11/11 old ale, but with the brett addition that may not be the best trial run.

 

[Hex]

Has anyone tried using dme or saved wort to prime with 1968?

I use 3/4 cup dme per 5 gal. batch.

 

[SwampassJ]

I use 3/4 cup dme per 5 gal. batch.

Any luck with 1968 vs using Dextrose and getting the cider flavors?

 

[Hex]

We're going to have to let the judges (KB et all) decide about the taste, I think they're great tasting and 'creamy', but I'm biased.

I stopped using dextrose a while ago, now I only use extra light DME for my English beers (including my IPA's and IIPA's) or home made invert syrup from C&H cane sugar for my Belgians.

 

[greenbirds]

This is an awesome thread. I have read the whole thing and have had many similar findings.

Now I read about the WLP002/WY1968 bottling issues. I have never had success bottling with this strain. I once brewed a 6 gallon batch of brown ale, kegged half and bottled the other half. The kegged beer was superb to the last drop, while the bottles went south after a week or two and never recovered. It was the same symptoms described here; thinned body, off flavors reminiscent of a low grade infection.

Other batches with that strain went straight to bottle and had the same problem.

 

[meschaefer]

I feel like I have just accomplished something major, after reading all 42 pages of this thread over the last week.

I have been trying to brew a good ESB for the last year and half. I have come very close, and kept thinking to myself that it tasted way to clean. ( I had that epiphany after I accidentally pitched 1056) Changing the fermentation temps seems like a good places to start.

Over the weekend I brewed the AHA Big Brew Day IPA (I know I was two weeks late in brewing it but...). It uses 1318 and figured that I would give the fermentation schedule outlined here a try, since it is an English IPA. I will probably due another ESB soon, but I have a few beers to do before I get back to that style.

I couldn't get my pitching temp below 66 degrees, so I pitched at 66 and let it rise to 68. After a little over 48 hours, gravity dropped to 1.021 and I lowered the temp to 64 degrees. The sample I pulled had this really nice malt profile, with a little bit of biscuit and nut thrown in. (The grain bill is 100% Marris Otter) Diaceytal was through the roof. 24 hours later, and gravity dropped another 4 points and is still chugging along. Malt flavor is intact and the diaceytal was still pronounced but more subdued.

I will let it sit a few more days before I take another sample. If I read this right, I will then drop the temp down to 43 degrees. I plan on kegging it at that point, and then conditioning it for two weeks at 50 degrees.

 

[tesilential]

I've been following this thread for a while now (where'd the people who did the experiment go?) and now have a couple British yeasts under my belt.

1275 Thames Valley: used in a brown ale and a SMaSH cascade/Maris otter (sneaked .5oz centennials in for bittering)

1968 Fuller's yeast: used this one in a Fuller's London Porter clone. Tasted SPOT ON after 2 weeks of fermentation, but after a couple weeks in the bottle it seemed thin and less awesome. Uncarbonated it had the Perfect mouthfeel, which to me is huge in the London porter. I hope it comes together more with a few weeks in the bottle.
Fermented at 62-64 for a week, then up to 68*f for a week.

 

[bierhaus15]

I will let it sit a few more days before I take another sample. If I read this right, I will then drop the temp down to 43 degrees. I plan on kegging it at that point, and then conditioning it for two weeks at 50 degrees.

That should be fine. The whole fermentation schedule (64-68-64F, crash cool) is basically a way of controlling yeast esters and dropping the yeast to set the malt profile. It is pretty amazing how quickly the beer is ready to drink with this method, though do remember that age is not really a friend of most English yeast strains. As soon as the beer cleans up, drink it!

1968 Fuller's yeast: used this one in a Fuller's London Porter clone. Tasted SPOT ON after 2 weeks of fermentation, but after a couple weeks in the bottle it seemed thin and less awesome.

Take a look back on the posts about wy1968 and the related problems when bottle carbing with it. I find it is better to keg 1968/wlp002 beer than risk it in the bottle. I am still waiting for a response from the yeast lab I emailed.

 

[RedHouse]

I bottled a Southern English Nut Brown a few weeks ago...used 1968. I was a bit concerned... cause right after I pitched it, I found this thread. But, the couple of bottles I have opened have been just fine.

 

[meschaefer]

That should be fine. The whole fermentation schedule (64-68-64F, crash cool) is basically a way of controlling yeast esters and dropping the yeast to set the malt profile. It is pretty amazing how quickly the beer is ready to drink with this method, though do remember that age is not really a friend of most English yeast strains. As soon as the beer cleans up, drink it!

Drinking it quickly shouldn't be a problem as I kicked both of my taps within the last two days. I don't get to brew as much as i would like to at the moment, so I don't have many things waiting to go on tap.

Based upon what I have read here, I am going to follow the flavor development pretty closely. While I didn't pull a sample last night, fermentation has visibly slowed. Once the flavor profile hits what i am looking for, I will drop the temp then.

 

[ayoungrad]

Just finished reading through this thread.

Thanks for all the ideas, opinions and experiences.

With all the talk of WLP002 and WY1968 off-flavor, does anyone have experience with bottle conditioning after a US04 fermentation? It's my understnading that all three of these strains are similar or the same. And I only bottle condition...