Brewing with honey

[commonsense]

Not new to brewing but new to brewing with the golden nectar. So I tried the easy (and apparently controversial) method last year of using honey malt at a rate of 7-10% in two different brews (old ale and wheat) and the results were..... nothing. No honey or sweetness profile at all.

So, I'm researching the proper way and have come to the conclusion that I should pasteurize some actual honey and then place it into primary during active fermentation. I'm still confused at one aspect of this however. Does this method add alcohol content to the brew or just the flavor and aroma? If it adds alcohol, how do I calculate that into my final ABV? I know adding honey to the boil adds to the ABV but not sure if adding to primary does the same.

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[zippy84]

Anything with available sugars in it will add alcohol to your beer. Honey is difficult to calculate, no two jars have the same gravity/concentration of sugar and so its harder to measure the fermentables.

But yes, honey will defo ferment!

 

[JohnK93]

I typically add a jar of honey (16oz?) at flameout when I make a honey-kolsch. While it doesn't add a lot of honey flavor, it's definitely there. I suppose adding to the primary or secondary would help to retain a little more honey flavor, but I like the subtlety it adds at flameout. As zippy said, honey does add alcohol and is a little bit tricky to calculate, but 16oz doesn't add a lot to the ABV.

I hear honey malt actually adds more honey flavor, but I haven't tried this.

 

[TopherM]

FYI, you don't really have to pasteurize honey. It's naturally sanitary. You don't really want to add it to secondary either. At lower temps, the honey stays clumped up, and the yeast can't really eat it. It also won't fully dissolve into the beer at those temps, and you definitely don't want to put hot, non-viscous honey into the beer in secondary either.

The tried and true best way to introduce honey is at flameout of your boil. This way it is fully dissolved into the wort, and is readily available to the yeast as simple sugars.

If you used 10% honey malt in a recipe and got no honey flavor, you have something in that particular recipe that is masking it. I use closer to 5% in lots of APAs and IPAs, and get a pronounced honey note.

 

[ACbrewer]

If you buy raw honey, it will be non pasteurized, but there is limited bacteria in it. If you buy 'normally available honey' it will have been pasteurized already. And it will not be labeled as 'raw'. Pasteurizing = heating and heating means driving off some of the honey flavors

Honey nominally has 40 points per pound in 1 gallon of liquid (ie dissolve 1lb of honey, about 12 oz liquid in 1 gallon total liquid, you should get a gravity about 40) the number isn't consistent. I think I've seen quoted as low as 35 or 37. but 40 should work for round numbers, meaning 1lb per 5 gallon batch will add about 1% (.008 gravity change).

Over time, the honey will dissolve and be eaten by the yeast, the question is how much time do you want to add to your ferment. So TopherM is basically right that you want to mix it in. This is similar to not stirring your lme in well. Eventually diffusion will dissolve it all, but do you want to wait for old age? If you add it at the start of your primary, just mix it in. You may want to mix it with warm (say around 100F) water/wort to get it to mix faster. Obviously hotter (150F) will work faster, but then you risk driving off flavors.

If you do it after most of your primary ferment is done, pull some beer and mix with that, again heating helps but same risks with flavors, and then cool (if you heated) and mix it back in. I've added honey straight to a secondary with no stirring. I then waited a couple of weeks and examined the bottom of the carboy carefully to be sure it was used up. My recommendation is to thin the honey with water or beer (or wort depending on your stage), and gently mix that into your fermenter.

Honey is 100% fermentable, (99.5%? there might be some pollen proteins) so it will dry out the beer and add ABV.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

One thing to keep in mind is that for the most part, many of the grocery store varieties of honey can be mostly corn syrup with a little actual honey. Check labels closely. Raw honey is the best but it's safest to add after the boil at around 170F as that will pasteurize it in the process and not drive off the flavor. However you want to keep hops at a minimum to avoid masking the subtle flavor of honey.

 

[Kharnynb]

I only buy local honey, as a lot of honey from unknown sources is mostly sugar or corn syrup.

Plus, local honey gives it an even more unique feel

 

[ffemtbm]

I make a Honey Ale: 5gl
5lbs- 2row
12oz- Cara-pils
3lbs- honey (I use local)
1oz Tettnang 60min
1oz Vangaurd 2min
Either Wyeast 1057 or Whitelabs 001

I typically put the honey in a 30mins left in boil, It adds a nice honey flavor.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

One thing to keep in mind is that for the most part, many of the grocery store varieties of honey can be mostly corn syrup with a little actual honey. Check labels closely.

For the most part, the honey on the shelves is honey, however it has been filtered down to the max. If it does contain corn syrup, it will say honey flavored syrup or something like that. It will also show up on the ingredients list.

If it was added illegally to cut cost, there's nothing stopping apiaries from adding corn syrup to raw honey without filtering it and calling it so.

I typically don't worry about the latter (if my honey had corn syrup added illegally), because there's no way to know either way. Like it was said above, if you have a friend or acquaintance who owns bees, that will be the best honey you'll ever taste for the most part.

 

[ACbrewer]

For the most part, the honey on the shelves is honey, however it has been filtered down to the max. If it does contain corn syrup, it will say honey flavored syrup . It will also show up on the ingredients list.

If it was added illegally to cut cost, there's nothing stopping apiaries from adding corn syrup to raw honey without filtering it and calling it so.

I typically don't worry about the latter (if my honey had corn syrup added illegally), because there's no way to know either way. Like it was said above, if you have a friend or acquaintance who owns bees, that will be the best honey you'll ever taste for the most part.

Honey sugars are a mix of glucose and fructose. Corn syrup is the same, so it can be used to 'cut' honey. If this is done in the US, it would have to be labeled. If it is done outside of the US, and sold here, it would legally have to be labeled, but might not be. The filtering and pasteurizing process destroys the evidence of the cutting.
Obviously the none sugar 'impurities' in honey are not going to be there in corn syrup, so testing can show it, but if it is processed before it ships, it can't be tested conclusively. Anyhow Local honey of known US sourcing is preferred to mass grocery store/unknown sources for that reason.
Sources for honey are also local farmers markets.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Just because it is the law, doesn't mean people or companies follow it all the time (i'm sure lots of the honey on EBAY isn't regulated by the FDA). I only made the point that small sellers could add corn syrup if they pleased, not that they are doing it rampantly

On topic: I agree 100% that honey from smaller sources not sold in big box stores or super grocery chains is of better quality all around.

 

[commonsense]

Thanks for all the info. I think I will try throwing in a pound or a little more at flameout just to experiment and see what I get. That's part of the fun of brewing. And since I always love reading the bottom of people's posts to see what they have in process here is mine:

FV1: London Fogg English IPA
FV2: Das Weisel Weisse
FV3: Lewis & Clark Golden Ale (Specialty beer, tastes like an IPA, treats you like a pale ale. Perfect for a long expedition)

Up next:

Zbuckvich Beer (Blond Ale for family reunion)
Fiery Squirrel Nut Brown Ale
Some kind of Marijuana IPA my pothead cousin wants me to make for him

 

[BeerFireBrew]

Wow. Lots of stuff goign on here. Thanks for starting this thread CommonSense.

1) Thanks for everyones input. I came here because I was recently given a pound of raw honey and was asked if I could make a Brown Ale with it. I've brewed many times but never used honey. After a lot of other reading too, I think I'll add it at flame out as well. I'm only looking for a subtle taste and a little boost in ABV, so this should work.

2) CommonSense, I saw you were doing a "Fiery Squirrel Nut Brown" so I googled it, thinking maybe it was a clone. I want to try a new Brown Ale recipie and wanted to check yours out. I came across your beers on BrewToad. Thanks for sharing. If anyone has links to thier favorite Brown Ales, I'd love to look them over. Otherwise, I know how to use Google

3) I see you live right down the road from where I used to live - Clarion. Small brewing world!

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Nut So Brown
English brown Ale

Ingredients
Units for 3 gallons @ 65% efficiency:
6 Pounds - Vienna Malt
.8 Pounds - Brown Malt
.5 pounds - Victory Malt
.25 Pounds - Crystal 120

Hops:
.5 oz Ahtanum @50
.5 oz UK Goldings @50
.5 oz Ahtanum @5
.5 oz UK Goldings @ 5

Yeast : Mangrove Jack's Newcastle Dark Ale (M03)
Starting Gravity: 1.056

Was great at 6 weeks from pitch.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

For the most part, the honey on the shelves is honey, however it has been filtered down to the max. If it does contain corn syrup, it will say honey flavored syrup or something like that. It will also show up on the ingredients list.

If it was added illegally to cut cost, there's nothing stopping apiaries from adding corn syrup to raw honey without filtering it and calling it so.

I typically don't worry about the latter (if my honey had corn syrup added illegally), because there's no way to know either way. Like it was said above, if you have a friend or acquaintance who owns bees, that will be the best honey you'll ever taste for the most part.

On the contrary roughly 76% of store purchased honey is legally not honey. Super purified honey, is simply a code word for "we're hiding something. Whether honey or corn syrup contain the same types of sugar is irrelevant. Honey doesn't taste like corn syrup anymore than an apple tastes like an orange.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

FYI, you don't really have to pasteurize honey. It's naturally sanitary. You don't really want to add it to secondary either. At lower temps, the honey stays clumped up, and the yeast can't really eat it..... .

Raw unpasteurized honey carries a warning label against feeding to infants because of the impurities it contains.

 

[beerme70]

When I brew with honey, it's more for the alcohol bump than anything else. I usually put it the honey during the transfer from the MLT to the BK. There is virtually no honey flavor, just extra sugars. This last batch I have lagering at the moment, I put a pint of local wildflower honey straight into the secondary, then racked on top of it. Fermentation kicked back in for 3 weeks before it died down. I am hoping to get a decent, but not over-bearing, honey flavor out of it.

 

[rodwha]

I've brewed several honey wheats and have about nailed it down. I've tried everything that has been suggested and what I've settled on is 1/2 lb of honey malt and 2-2.5 lbs of raw honey at flameout. I've also added it a week after fermentation began but prefer to get an accurate OG reading. It will most certainly ferment out when done that way.

This beer tastes very much like Blue Moon's honey wheat. It doesn't taste just like honey, but it is similar.

 

[commonsense]

The Nut Brown is one of my better recipes. All the recipes you see on my Brewtoad page have been brewed at least twice and I update when I have a better variation of the beer. Do yourself a favor and check out my Van Pelt Pumpkin Ale. The yeast I use is only available in July-August so if you brew that one make sure you get the yeast. It works wonderfully with that beer. My homebrew club gets together every Labor day to brew that beer and it's perfect timing to be ready in mid October. If you're in Clarion again someday stop by for a brewday! Na Zdravie

 

[ACbrewer]

Raw unpasteurized honey carries a warning label against feeding to infants because of the impurities it contains.

You are half correct, it is bacteria, not impurities that require the label. And the very young, very old or immune compromised may not be able to handle the bacteria in honey. However as a growth medium, honey won't grow any new bacteria, it is to dry for stuff to grow - as is LME and Maple syrup - ok maybe surface molds, but not bacteria or yeast.

The quantity of bacteria relative to the yeast injection in mead making (which uses 1/2 the yeast for 2x the sugar - or 1/4th what a brewer would use) are considered to be unable to over come the yeast ferment.

I'd assume a beer with 4x the starting yeast cells compared to the overall sugar, and in particular the honey is probably 1/10th that of a mead - and similar bacteria level - means that pasteurizing the honey really isn't needed, but brewers certainly can. I've done it both ways with no issues.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

You are half correct, it is bacteria, not impurities that require the label. And the very young, very old or immune

Not to split hairs, but the bacteria qualifies as an impurity by any definition. You also left out the most important reason for pasteurizing raw honey. Raw honey can and will ferment on it's own due to the amounts of wild yeast cells that are prevalent in hives and thus are present in the honey. Not to be overly technical, but since the mead's I make can take a minimum of 4-6 months before they are ready to bottle/keg, that's plenty of time for the wild yeasts to impact the flavor.

 

[ACbrewer]

Not to split hairs, but the bacteria qualifies as an impurity by any definition. You also left out the most important reason for pasteurizing raw honey. Raw honey can and will ferment on it's own due to the amounts of wild yeast cells that are prevalent in hives and thus are present in the honey. Not to be overly technical, but since the mead's I make can take a minimum of 4-6 months before they are ready to bottle/keg, that's plenty of time for the wild yeasts to impact the flavor.

Honey is to dry for spontaneous fermentation via wild yeast. This is basic chem/bio having to do with osmosis and diffusion. This is why mead benefits from mild degassing before the 1/2 sugar point - makes the chemical migration through the yeast cell wall more favorable. Every comment I found about 'spontaneous fermentation of wild honey' also mentioned the addition of water first (sounds like mead/beer/wine making)

If there is fermentation in the hives, I'm not surprised, when the bee's bring in the nectar, it is close to 2% sugar and 98% water. The bees then dry the nectar and make honey. When honey is ready it is close to 70% sugar and 30% water. Big difference.

The splitting of hairs began in my other post. The problem with saying "impurities" is that bacteria are not the only ones, there could be to a lesser degree heavy metals - which would be another reason to not let infants near the honey, but unless China *1 is getting into our markets, is a reason to fear infants eating honey. Specifically it is the bacteria that is the warning for honey.

As to wild yeast contaminating mead, or other products. I came across one article that had sampled homebrews and found there were bacteria at varying levels, and the less the better in the beers.
Another article I came across found that for Meads, those where the honey was heated prior to fermentation tasted worse. (can't find the articles now). Thus those wild yeasts were in the better tasting meads. Probably because heating honey drives of some of the more volatile flavors.

Typically we put in our own yeast at something x10K or more the amount of cells as a wild yeast or other bacteria would have giving it a massive head start. I think a working definition of sanitation is 99% of the bacteria dead, leaving something on the order of 10K, we put about 100M(illion) yeast in. *2



*1. Lead or other toxic impurities in China's honey is a different thread entirely. The bullet sum up is buy local honey from trustable sources.
*2 Sanitation is not "measurable." This compares to "sterilization" which I think is 99.999% bacteria free, and can be measured, documented and failures lead to prosecution. Think of the difference between these two as "salt to taste" and "add exactly 1/4 teaspoon." One is not very defined (sanitize) but generally understood. The other is very specific(sterilize) and measurable and in some ways less generally understood.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

...., but unless China *1 is getting into our markets, is a reason to fear infants eating honey. Specifically it is the bacteria that is the warning for honey.

Unfortunately Chinese honey is all over the market shelves, thanks to creative ways to sell honey thru shell companies and US businessmen eager for a profit. If it comes from a grocery store, I don't buy it. I speak in general terms the last thing anyone would accuse me of is being an engineer. Hope this ends this.

 

[ACbrewer]

Unfortunately Chinese honey is all over the market shelves, thanks to creative ways to sell honey thru shell companies and US businessmen eager for a profit. If it comes from a grocery store, I don't buy it. I speak in general terms the last thing anyone would accuse me of is being an engineer. Hope this ends this.

I agree with the "no super market" honey comment here. I suspect it all is from China in the beginning. I'm pretty much convinced I will need to start keeping my own bees

 

[MadHomebrewer]

I just used some local honey instead of priming sugar last night for bottling a double IPA. I shall see how that turns out.

 

[ACbrewer]

I just used some local honey instead of priming sugar last night for bottling a double IPA. I shall see how that turns out.

There usually isn't enough honey/priming sugar to tell a difference.

 

[Calichusetts]

You really want to use honey in lighter beers. Lighter in the sense of taste. Supper hoppy beers or a coffee stout will not have honey come through. I used honey in nearly 100 batches. I never heated it up either, except for adding it to boiled water to mix for priming.

Your best bet is a lighter wheat or pale ale with honey added at flameout, the tail end of fermentation, and use it for priming. You will get a very pronounced flavor.

Of course you can use honey malt instead.

There are "fake" honey products out there, just google it and you'll find a list. Certain types of honey tend to shine more. I prefer orange blossom.