Brewing Water Adjustments for Dunkel

[Jcoz]

I am trying to dive into Brewing Water as a whole, but its a large subject and I have a brewday I can't pass up on Saturday.

I was hoping I could get a quick look over my shoulder for the adjustments I'm planning on making this weekend.

I have a PH meter so I will be able to take some good notes for future reference, but is there anything that seems wildly off-base in terms of brewing a Dunkelweizen in the below breakdown (EZ-water calc printout)

I would be very appreciative of anyone who took the time to take a look.

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.5 / 2.8125
MgSO4: 3.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 3

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 61 / 61
Mg: 23 / 11
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 86 / 86
SO4: 102 / 54
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 1.57

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -128
RA: -185
Estimated pH: 5.59
(room temp)

 

[Jcoz]

Fixed

 

[ajdelange]

Everything looks good except for the magnesium sulfate. That contributes both magnesium and sulfate neither of which are desirable for a dunkleweizen. If you can possibly swing it before brew day do a test mash - put a bit of each of the grains you plan to use in the proper proportions into a beaker and add water at about the grain/water ratio you intend to use. Keep at the mash in temp and check the pH after about 20 min. Adjust the sauermalz according to what you read.

 

[mabrungard]

I would not add any Mg and I would not boost the sulfate that high either. I'm surprised that AJ didn't protest that sulfate level more loudly.

Another consideration is that its unlikely that additional acid will be needed for a dunkelweizen grist, I would not boost the Ca any higher than about 50 ppm in order to avoid depressing the RA any further. If the test grist results in too low a mash pH, a little alkalinity might be appropriate.

 

[Jcoz]

Thank you, I will tinker a bit more in the morning and repost some numbers. Unfortunately I cannot make a reliable mini mash, I ordered it as a whole recipe from brewmasters warehouse, so it's ground together and I'll have no way of knowing what the individual %'s of the grains I end up with. I'll cut the Mg and see where it lands me. I think I will need some sourmaltz because lowering the calcium a bit and removing the mg will put me right on the upper edge of the ph range at mash temps.

 

[Jcoz]

So I did some tinkering based on the suggestions that were made, and here are two different scenarios, one with sourmalz and one without.

I guess the questions that come to mind are these:

From what I have read, the Cl to SO4 Ratio is more important than sheer amount of sulfate...if this is the case, at what point is that ratio too lopsided? Here I am well into the malty side of things already, why elimiante the sulfate altogether? Using Bru'n Water, the target range for Amber Malty has nearly a 1:1 ratio for example.

Another question is regarding the sourmalz, why would I NOT want to use the sourmalz? As a general question?

The estimated PH without the sourmalz is 5.75@ room temps, so that would theoretically put me right on the upper edge of the the target here (at mash temp), while the sourmalz can put me squarley in the middle? I understand this is not a perfect model, but unless there is some reason that sourmaltz shouldn't be used, I would think putting myself in the middle of the estimated range is better than the edge of the range I'd want to hit....

This is with 2% sourmalz

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0.5 / 0.5625
CaCl2: 2 / 2.25
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 4

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 60 / 60
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 70 / 70
SO4: 30 / 30
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.29 / 2.29

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -180
RA: -223
Estimated pH: 5.55
(room temp)




This is with no sourmalz:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0.5 / 0.5625
CaCl2: 2 / 2.25
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 60 / 60
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 70 / 70
SO4: 30 / 30
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.29 / 2.29

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 28
RA: -15
Estimated pH: 5.75
(room temp)

 

[Jcoz]

I ran a report through Bru'n Water and have an estimated PH of 5.2, and read the thread here talking about the differences in the models and how your best tools are adjustments on the fly and your PH meter.

If I left out the sourmalz, and had to adjust the mash PH on the fly, I think it takes 20 min to stabilize, how long would it take for the sourmalz to affect the PH, another 20 min? And if you did tinker in this way, would you restart the mash time there or still mash for the total time you originally intended?

I wonder then if Lactic Acid would be a more effective solution for on the fly adjustments or not....

 

[Yooper]

I wonder then if Lactic Acid would be a more effective solution for on the fly adjustments or not....

Yes, or phosphoric acid. I have them on hand.

 

[ajdelange]

From what I have read, the Cl to SO4 Ratio is more important than sheer amount of sulfate...if this is the case, at what point is that ratio too lopsided?

That assertion is highly questionable. In continental brewing sulfate is generally avoided as it lends what is considered a harsh nature to hops and I certainly must agree that in my opinion where noble hops are used that is true.

Here I am well into the malty side of things already, why elimiante the sulfate altogether? Using Bru'n Water, the target range for Amber Malty has nearly a 1:1 ratio for example.

Because with a wheat beer you want the hops to be like the violas in an orchestra. Certainly not the instrument that carries the main theme but if they weren't there the whole would be diminished. If you add sulfate to the water the hops would become more like a razzy sax.

The chloride sulfate ratio thing is one of those straws which home brewers have grasped at in order to try to simplify what is an extremely complex process. Wouldn't it be nice if we could set RA and SO4:Cl based on the color we want and the degree of maltiness and hoppiness? Problem is that it isn't that simple by a long shot. There is only a very weak correlation between color and the RA of the water it was brewed with and malt flavors and hops flavors are in no way antipodal as the notion of control by a ratio implies. As a general observation German brewers try to avoid sulfate wherever possible though, of course, some fine German beers are brewed with gypseous waters. The SO4:Cl2 ratio concept was extracted from a paragraph in the second edition of Brewing Handbook and granted star billing by home brewers. If possible read the water chapter in that book and see if you think it deserves star billing.

Another question is regarding the sourmalz, why would I NOT want to use the sourmalz? As a general question?

Sauermalz adds distinctive flavor qualities to beer. These are subtle, again like the violas in an orchestra, and most people find them flavor positive. But you may not for whatever reasons related to personal taste.

Some find it easier to calculate the volume of a particular strength of lactic or phosphoric acid than to throw in 1% sauermalz for each 0.1 pH drop desired. I don't understand this but some people do feel that way.

Finally, in an extreme case i.e. where lots of acid is used the requisite amount of sauermalz (or lactic acid) may be such that the beer tastes lactic. A more neutral flavored acid such as phosphoric would be a better choice in such a case if the lactic flavor is not wanted.

The estimated PH without the sourmalz is 5.75@ room temps, so that would theoretically put me right on the upper edge of the the target here (at mash temp), while the sourmalz can put me squarley in the middle? I understand this is not a perfect model, but unless there is some reason that sourmaltz shouldn't be used, I would think putting myself in the middle of the estimated range is better than the edge of the range I'd want to hit....

I would too.

 

[ajdelange]

If I left out the sourmalz, and had to adjust the mash PH on the fly, I think it takes 20 min to stabilize, how long would it take for the sourmalz to affect the PH, another 20 min? And if you did tinker in this way, would you restart the mash time there or still mash for the total time you originally intended?

This is a real problem. You have to break eggs to make an omelet and you have to accept that not all your beers are going to be fantastic until you get material and procedure 'dialed in'. If you dough in find the early mash pH is 5.7 you immediately know that you are in trouble because it is only going to rise over time. You can, therefore, add lactic acid or sauermalz right away. If, 20 minutes later your pH is off you can add more sauermalz or base to try to get it back into line. If you can pull that off before the enzymes are denatured by heat you will have a good beer but if you don't you have still gained because you will know next time what you should do i.e. add more sauermalz.

I wonder then if Lactic Acid would be a more effective solution for on the fly adjustments or not....

The liquid acids give a faster response than sauermalz because with sauermalz the acid has to be dissolved out of the sauermalz and into the base malt. With liquid acids part one is already done.

 

[Jcoz]

Ok, this is a lot of good food for thought. It's also a bit of a kick in the pants, lol. I wish it was a more simple component of the brewing process... This rabbit hole goes deep.

If trial and error is really the only way I need to make a mini mash tun and learn to make 1-2 gallon batches or something. Really good piece on info on the general direction that the mash PH goes, is that fairly reliable? That seems counterintuitive to me for some reason.

 

[Jcoz]

Where does one get phosphoric and lactic acid? My LBS doesn't have either.

 

[ajdelange]

Ok, this is a lot of good food for thought. It's also a bit of a kick in the pants, lol. I wish it was a more simple component of the brewing process....

Everyone does. I've been trying to figure out how to explain it simply for 25 years and have basically concluded that I can't. Some things are like that. No one can give you simple instructions for playing the Partitas for Solo Violin and no one can give you simple instructions for brewing beer (though your chances are better with the beer than with the Bach). The best I have been able to come up with is the Primer.

If trial and error is really the only way I need to make a mini mash tun and learn to make 1-2 gallon batches or something. Really good piece on info on the general direction that the mash PH goes, is that fairly reliable? That seems counterintuitive to me for some reason.

There is an intuitive explanation whenever acid is used and that is that it takes time for the acid to penetrate and react. In a distilled water mash the explanation would acid is released early on, perhaps because some got generated during the malting process through the action of L delbrueckii and that when this gets absorbed by the grain it gets neutralized. With a hard water it can go the other way as the calcium/phytin reaction takes place. In any case yoy should, by taking a couple of measurements early on, see which way things are trending. With experience you will know what to expect and to be able to estimate where things will settle out based on the early readings.

 

[Jcoz]

Thank you for having the discussion and providing some direction. I will brew tomorrow and come back and post about how the mash went Sunday night, I am interested to see how this goes the first time.

 

[Jcoz]

Well my mash is halfway through, here is how it's going:

11:18 - dough in
11:27 - PH:5.2 Temp 147 a added 1.25q near boiling water
11:38 - Temp 151
11:45 - PH 5.2

I ended up adding 5 grams of Calcium Chloride to 10 gallons of water and added 1.2% acidulated malt to the mash. I'm please with the results.

 

[ajdelange]

Were those pH's measured at 147 and 151 or on samples cooled to room temperature? If at the higher temps you are OK. If at room temp you are lowish. All pH's bandied about on websites, in modern articles and in recent books are at room temperature. pH 5.4 - 5.5 is generally accepted as being in the center of the desirable range at room temperature. This would translate to 5.2 - 5.4 at mash temperature.

In addition to helping to 'standardize' pH readings (independent of whether 'mash temperature' is beta glucan rest, protein rest, saccharification rest...) room temperature is a lot easier on the pH meter's electrode and thus extends its life.

 

[Jcoz]

They were at mash temps. Good to know on the wear and tear for the electrode, but I don't know how often I'm going to be able to spare the time it takes to cool a sample down to room temps.

 

[RCCOLA]

They were at mash temps. Good to know on the wear and tear for the electrode, but I don't know how often I'm going to be able to spare the time it takes to cool a sample down to room temps.

I jockey a sample between 2 plates, like panning for gold. After the 2nd plate its cooled to room temp.

 

[ajdelange]

They were at mash temps. Good to know on the wear and tear for the electrode, but I don't know how often I'm going to be able to spare the time it takes to cool a sample down to room temps.

Then you are good on pH. As for the cooling: there are lots of tricks. My SO had a little saucepan - about 4" in diameter - which I pinched and put into service. Just scoop out a about 1/2" of mash and then float it in about 1/2" cold water in the sink. I've heard that other people collect a sample in a shot glass and immerse that in cold water.

 

[Jcoz]

Hmm... I think I made a mistake and just realized it. What I really tested was ph of the mash WATER from the spout on the bottom of my mash tun..... I did not take a bunch of grain with it... It had some but it was mostly water. How much do you think that affects my measurement accuracy as it pertains to mash ph?

 

[ajdelange]

That's hard to say. In a recent post another brewer found that the pH of samples he took from below the false bottom of his mash tun did not seem to change when he added lactic acid. Not really surprising as the lactic acid he added to the mash clearly never made its way through the false bottom. You may or may not have a similar situation here. Next time stir the mash and take a sample from the will mixed mash.

 

[Jcoz]

Well, live and learn. I think for my notes I will reduce the acidulated malt a bit and it may not be needed for this recipe.

The early results have been positive, I had 5-6 bubbles a min 9 Hours after pitching, and a 1" Krausen in less than 20 Hours, at a fairly low ale ferment temp of 62F.

That is by far the fastest I have gotten fermentation to begin. I would say 30-36 hours is what I have seen normally, even though I aerate with O2. The only 2 changes I have made in this batch is the water modification (most notably for the first time bringing calcium to a proper range) and make a small starter, although I do not believe this made a large difference because in other instances I have pitched more than one vial of WL yeast or an 11.5 gram rehydrated dry yeast, so I think even though I had not made starters I had usually still pitched an appropriate amount of yeast.