Brewing Several days in a row... Experience at a local brewery

[mliptack]

This might be a post better suited for pro brewing forum, but I would like to hear from the home brewing community on this...

This past weekend, my wife and I went away on a weekend getaway. We stopped at a local brewery, producing ~2000 bbls/year. They had 3 - 22bbl fermentors and a 7bbl brew length.

I got to speak to the owner & head brewer for a while and got to take a tour through the brewery. He mentioned he doesn't brew more than once per day. After more questioning, it turns out he brews 7bbls, and chills/adds O2/ and moves it to the fermentor, where on the first day he pitches enough yeast for 21bbs of beer.

The next day, he said usually the first batch has CO2 bubbling out (in fact I got to see this). He brews the same beer, chills/Adds O2 and moves it to the same fermentor.

He repeats this on the third day filling the fermentor.


This poses a multitude of questions:
1) Is this a relatively standard practice?
2) Why pitch enough yeast for 21bbls? What if you pitched maybe enough for 7bbls, wouldn't the yeast would multiply and be enough to ferment the next 7bbls and so on... Basically using the first 7bbls as a production starter
3) Theoretically, wouldn't adding O2 on the second and third brew days potentially cause detriment to the already fermenting beer? Especially with lighter gravities?
4) There were more questions I had - I just cannot remember them now (must be writer's block)

Without mentioning what my interpretation of the beer was - how does this process affect the end product?

What if as a home brewer, I brewed 5gal batches each day, pitching enough yeast on the first day until I had 15 gallons fermenting?

What would you expect?

Cheers!
Max

 

[normonster]

That is interesting. I hope someone replies with some input.

 

[madscientist451]

Sounds like the yeast would be going pretty good by the time the third batch was added. Why don't you want to say if you liked the beer?
Did you detect any flaws? Some people say overpitching yeast could produce acetaldehyde, characterized by green apple flavor. I haven't done any overpitching experiments, and there seems to be some controversy about if overpitching is a real problem.

 

[grathan]

He might have meant it's enough yeast for 21 barrels because its growing with each addition?

Or perhaps they're trying to limit ester production by limiting growth.

Or perhaps it's just easier to handle the yeast a single time.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm trying to follow the logic behind what he's doing on pitch rate and oxygenation and keep drawing a blank.

 

[philipCT]

I'm not a pro, but my understanding is this is pretty common and many breweries are designed to do just this. Many breweries I've visited have fermenters that are 2-3x the capacity of the brewhouse because they anticipate the wort from consecutive days will be added to the fermenter until it's at capacity.

About aeration - most production breweries that I've been in are using inline aeration rigs. So immediately after the brew is done, the wort is pumped through the chiller, and coming out of the chiller, there's a sight glass with an oxygenation stone in it injecting oxygen into the wort on its way to the fermenter. This way, they are oxygenating the fresh wort without directly oxygenating the already fermenting wort.

As far as yeast goes, it would make so much sense to pitch only enough yeast to use the first batch as a huge starter. 24 hours is just about the perfect amount of lag time for optimal yeast growth before adding in the second batch. And then do it again 24 hours later. It might take some cute yeast propagation math to get it right, but I bet that's what's going on.

Both these techniques are available to us as homebrewers. Inline O2 is a little expensive. We've been programmed to use starters. But instead we could be taking out a gallon or so or the wort from a brewday, pitching yeast to that, letting it go for 24 hours, and then dump the whole thing back into the main wort. I'm not the first one to think of that - I just read about it the other day here on HBT - of COURSE! .

Hope this is illuminating.

 

[erick0619]

we could be taking out a gallon or so or the wort from a brewday, pitching yeast to that, letting it go for 24 hours, and then dump the whole thing back into the main wort. I'm not the first one to think of that - I just read about it the other day here on HBT - of COURSE! .

Hope this is illuminating.

im just curious if that would cause a massive over pitch since essentially it would be a one gallon starter.

 

[erick0619]

im just curious if that would cause a massive over pitch since essentially it would be a one gallon starter.

oh and what about the gravity of the beer wouldn't it shock the yeast?if it was higher than 1060?

 

[schematix]

This is very common commercially. There is a home brewing version known as the Texas Two Step.

 

[tbred]

Would the 1st practice be able to be used on a homebrew scale. Example: I brew 1 gallon of my beer pitch yeast and put in 5 gal fermentor. Could I think brew an additional gallon each day until my fermentor is full?

More so what issues could arise? Besides infection.

 

[philipCT]

This is very common commercially. There is a home brewing version known as the Texas Two Step.

Haven't heard of that. Tell me more...

 

[philipCT]

im just curious if that would cause a massive over pitch since essentially it would be a one gallon starter.

So, right - you would want to do the math on that. If you had brewed 5g batch and it was a moderate gravity, you might only need a 1.5 liter starter. But the same basic practice could hold.

oh and what about the gravity of the beer wouldn't it shock the yeast?if it was higher than 1060?

Good question. The post I read was entitled something like "No more starters" and I don't recall he went into that. There's a difference between pitching to propagate (starters) and pitching to ferment (beer). I think your question might be "is that a good gravity to pitch into for yeast propagation?".

 

[okbecker]

Sounds like a great way to manage your time effectively on a larger scale based on your equipment constraints and staffing levels. 5 gallon system, no need to upgrade to a larger kettle to do 15 gallons....just find a big fermenter and boom...1/2 keg ! I like it. Only concern I could see is you have 3 chances to screw up sanitation and possibly infect 15 gallons vs. 5..

 

[schematix]

Haven't heard of that. Tell me more...

Google says https://byo.com/hops/item/1505-the-texas-two-step-method

 

[erick0619]

So, right - you would want to do the math on that. If you had brewed 5g batch and it was a moderate gravity, you might only need a 1.5 liter starter. But the same basic practice could hold.

If this were a 5.5 gallon batch of 1050 wort, it would need 193 billion cells. Pitching the yeast into 4L of wort without shaking or a stir plate will yield 253 cells. That doesn't seem like too much of an over pitch. This makes me want to give it a go.

 

[aviator01]

The brewers process seems completely legitimate and necessary based on the equipment used. Maximize production output (fill the large fermentor) without purchasing a larger brew house. Seems like a great idea that home brewers could use if interested in large batches without the need for purchasing larger boil kettles and other equipment. Just get a big ass fermentor and brew like crazy. If your process is sound, there isn't any additional issues with contamination and you only deal with yeast on the first day. This would be a great method to use when trying to fill a 15 gallon barrel or an interesting brew club project.

 

[mliptack]

Replying briefly from phone. Will give a longer response later.

I didn't provide my perception of the beer, yet, because I want to hear what people think would happen.


Next - I knew many Brewers would spec their fermenters 2-3x bigger than their brew house, but I always understood that they would brew 2-3x in one day to fill.

This brewer said he pitches enough for 21bbls. So he is not using the first batch to increase the pitch qty.

He does oxygenate inline. Following the chiller. Doesn't this still risk off flavors? When people complain about off flavors on this forum an often proposed cause is using tap water that hasn't been boiled to reduce the O2 content. I figure if adding 2.5 of tap water to 2.5gal of unfermenting wort is enough to cause off flavors - wouldn't adding oxygenated wort to fermenting beer potentially do the same? I have heard about adding O2 on day 2 on the Jamil Show (for high gravity beer). So in effort to contain the responses, this brewer said this is standard practice for him so let's keep this discussion to beers with more delicate flavors / lower gravities.

That's all I got for now - awesome discussion so far!

 

[dstar26t]

Typically when multi-batching, you pitch enough for the first batch and only oxygenate the first batch. Everyone has their own method though.

 

[feinbera]

He does oxygenate inline. Following the chiller. Doesn't this still risk off flavors? When people complain about off flavors on this forum an often proposed cause is using tap water that hasn't been boiled to reduce the O2 content. I figure if adding 2.5 of tap water to 2.5gal of unfermenting wort is enough to cause off flavors - wouldn't adding oxygenated wort to fermenting beer potentially do the same?

I think this is a myth or misunderstanding. You can introduce a lot of off flavors with untreated tapwater – a bad mineral profile, bugs if it's untreated or chlorine/chloramines if it's treated, etc. – but extra oxygen, at least into unfermented wort on its way to the yeast, shouldn't be a problem. Now, diluting a finished batch, that's a difference story, but if very early oxygen is a problem, wouldn't everybody who shakes, stirs, or, gawd forbid, bubbles pure O2 into their beer before pitching be producing awful oxidized cardboard beer every batch?

 

[user 141939]

Could you brew a batch, pitch a starters worth, wait a night, boil remaining wort to sanitize and add to carboy?

It would eliminate the need to do a starter.

 

[helibrewer]

Makes sense to me. Having all the yeast in there upfront eliminates repeated lag phases that you would get from incremental additions. The most significant thing that happens during that phase is the cells adaptation to its environment and the creation of 100's of precursors and transport mechanisms. Having all the yeast pitched initially solves this issue.

Adding wort over 3 days is really nothing more than providing the existing population with more food while diluting the pitch rate, encouraging more growth so the aerated wort provides a bit of O2 needed due to the dilution.

This would flatten out the fermentation curve so your production would be pushed right a bit but I am sure the increased volume and easier brew schedule make up for this.

 

[mliptack]

Duplicate post -

 

[mliptack]

I think this is a myth or misunderstanding. You can introduce a lot of off flavors with untreated tapwater – a bad mineral profile, bugs if it's untreated or chlorine/chloramines if it's treated, etc. – but extra oxygen, at least into unfermented wort on its way to the yeast, shouldn't be a problem. Now, diluting a finished batch, that's a difference story, but if very early oxygen is a problem, wouldn't everybody who shakes, stirs, or, gawd forbid, bubbles pure O2 into their beer before pitching be producing awful oxidized cardboard beer every batch?

If I oxygenate before I pitch that's one story.

But if I oxygenate before I pitch, then again 24hrs into fermentation and a third time 48hrs into fermentation. That is a completely different story.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

So here's the plan:

Step 1, sanitize a small swimming pool.

Step 2 get 30 of your friends with a 15 gallon brew rig each, and arrange them around the coping.

Step 3 Once the malt truck backs up to the pool and arranges the drop chute over the wheelbarrow.....

You get the point.

 

[user 141939]

Like this?

http://www.quirkyguide.com/activity/swim-in-beer-austria

 

[normonster]

Like this?

http://www.quirkyguide.com/activity/swim-in-beer-austria

Awesome

 

[brewman !]

This practice (adding fresh wort to an active fermentation) is discussed by dogfishhead people (including Sam) in one of these videos. I'm pretty sure its the second one, but I can't be sure.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaoS5Z8DLCM[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9x11ToxTNI[/ame]

 

[Calichusetts]

I've noticed many times on brew sheets at breweries that they are recording three separate mashes for their beer. I think this could be a triple batch brew day but it could be over the course of a few days. Not sure

 

[pcollins]

This is pretty similar to what we do at our brewery. We have 25hL fermenters and we go to 12.5hL in the boil kettle on a brew day. We pitch the appropriate full amount of yeast on day one and cool in with O2. Day two we brew the same amount but cool in with no O2.

With losses at cooling and transfer we're about 23hL in the fermenter.

So we're not going as far as the brewery the OP visited with three brew days but the process is pretty normal.

 

[broadbill]

If I oxygenate before I pitch that's one story.

But if I oxygenate before I pitch, then again 24hrs into fermentation and a third time 48hrs into fermentation. That is a completely different story.

Do some googling on DFH120IPA and people how have done homebrewed versions...they are oxygenating up to a month after the first pitch, concurrent with additional yeast/fermentables/hops pitches. Its not uncommon when "feeding" ultra-high gravity beers, the trick here is to have active yeast to metabolize the the oxygen.

It is common for people to take recommendations/guidelines and petrify them into hard and fast rules. In this case, the actual rule should be "don't introduce oxygen if the yeast activity level isn't sufficient to metabolize it" not "NEVER add oxygen after a yeast pitch".

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Do some googling on DFH120IPA and people how have done homebrewed versions...they are oxygenating up to a month after the first pitch, concurrent with additional yeast/fermentables/hops pitches. Its not uncommon when "feeding" ultra-high gravity beers, the trick here is to have active yeast to metabolize the the oxygen.

It is common for people to take recommendations/guidelines and petrify them into hard and fast rules. In this case, the actual rule should be "don't introduce oxygen if the yeast activity level isn't sufficient to metabolize it" not "NEVER add oxygen after a yeast pitch".

Thanks for the clarification on oxygenation. I was up until today one of those "don't add o2 after pitch" folks, but your comment makes sense. If the yeast is still active they metabloize the oxygen.

Of course your punishment for answering a question is you get another question. Common wisdommis that if you add oxygen post fermentation you get oxidation and off flavors. What is the chemical mechanism for this? are the o2 molecules binding to the (proteins? residual sugars?) Why doesn't the excess oxygen simply of-gas like excess co2?

 

[broadbill]

Thanks for the clarification on oxygenation. I was up until today one of those "don't add o2 after pitch" folks, but your comment makes sense. If the yeast is still active they metabloize the oxygen.

Of course your punishment for answering a question is you get another question. Common wisdommis that if you add oxygen post fermentation you get oxidation and off flavors. What is the chemical mechanism for this? are the o2 molecules binding to the (proteins? residual sugars?) Why doesn't the excess oxygen simply of-gas like excess co2?

Oxygen is an oxidizer, and can efficiently "attack" and and oxidize any number of molecules in the beer: ethanol to acetylaldehyde, hop acids to short chain fatty acids, and unsaturated fatty acids, etc.

It doesn't off-gas because beer wort has some capacity to be saturated with oxygen. It is released but at a rate that is influenced by a number of factors (temperature for example).

 

[mliptack]

Do some googling on DFH120IPA and people how have done homebrewed versions...they are oxygenating up to a month after the first pitch, concurrent with additional yeast/fermentables/hops pitches. Its not uncommon when "feeding" ultra-high gravity beers, the trick here is to have active yeast to metabolize the the oxygen.

It is common for people to take recommendations/guidelines and petrify them into hard and fast rules. In this case, the actual rule should be "don't introduce oxygen if the yeast activity level isn't sufficient to metabolize it" not "NEVER add oxygen after a yeast pitch".

I have heard about adding O2 on day 2 on the Jamil Show (for high gravity beer). So in effort to contain the responses, this brewer said this is standard practice for him so let's keep this discussion to beers with more delicate flavors / lower gravities.

What you are saying makes perfect sense, only add enough O2 that the yeast are able to metabolize, but again you are bringing the discussion to a stronger beer. This brewer used the same process for all the brews. Which is why I wanted to take the conversation away from the stronger beers and concentrate on the beers with more delicate flavors & lower gravities.


With that said, I want to comment on the brews themselves.

I bought 3 samples.
1- Wheat
1- Double IPA
1- Porter

The wheat beer had a good flavor and a nice malty aroma. But seemed to lack body mouthfeel and complexity - probably over attenuation. The beer was clear. Light straw color. It had an overly strong hop presence/bitterness, almost like a session IPA, but this was likely because of the lack of a balance due.

The IPA - Was expectedly hop forward, seemed to have more of a earthy hop flavor. This beer had a ABV reported in the 9-10 range, but again lacked complexity. It was bland. This beer had the most body of the three. I bought a growler of this beer. I drank 3/4 of the growler in an evening (I certainly didn't feel like it was in the 9%+ range!)

The porter - Was very dry, almost black-coffee like astringency. Again, (you guessed it) almost no body. WAY over attenuated.

I finished all the samples of the beer - the beer wasn't undrinkable by any means, but it wasn't something to write home about. I just wondered how their process would affect it all.

The lack of body seemed like the common denominator - like it was caused by an over pitch to start with. From what I read/ and hear on the Jamil Show / TBN, as a rule of thumb yeast will double their cell count in 24 hours. Plus an excess of O2 will cause the yeast to focus on increasing the cell count instead of fermenting - eating sugars and O2 (but not creating CO2 yet - hence the lag time after pitching yeast). After the first 24 hours you have a cell count that is ready to ferment 30-40bbls and you add more wort and O2, then focusing the yeast's attention to propagation rather than fermentation....

This is why I think most of the beers lacked body. Additionally, it could be a cause for the IPA having a deceptively high ABV.

Or all of this could be caused by an inexperienced brewery without a good recipe to start with...

Cheers,
Max

 

[mliptack]

Correction - I stated the beer was s porter. It was in fact an oatmeal stout.

Now that I think about it again, it had a smokiness (maybe a very small % of a smoked malt)