Hey guys so I'm in school for chemical engineering and have been seriously considering furthering my brewing education after I graduate to pursue a brewing career. As much as I think this would be an awesome job, is the market really there? Any input is appreciated.
Brewing as a career or hobby
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I don't think it's over-saturated yet, but Jim Koch seems to think so: http://beerpulse.com/2012/11/boston-beer-co-chairman-jim-koch-on-new-breweries-bubble-is-near-popping-point/
What kind of job do you want?
If you're interested in nanobrewing, I can offer some advice. Nanos won't work everywhere. You need the right region. In California and Oregon there are a lot already. In other states, laws aren't friendly enough. It isn't going to work if you don't sell most of your beer for on-premise consumption, and having a high median income in the region helps a lot.
What kind of job do you want?
If you're interested in nanobrewing, I can offer some advice. Nanos won't work everywhere. You need the right region. In California and Oregon there are a lot already. In other states, laws aren't friendly enough. It isn't going to work if you don't sell most of your beer for on-premise consumption, and having a high median income in the region helps a lot.
Go over to probrewer.com and see how many qualified people are looking for work!!! IF you get your foot in the door you won't make very much money. I think I saw somewhere that a Head Brewer at a larger craft brewery averages around 40k. That might be ok when you are young and single but later...?? The little money there is to be made in the craft brewing world is made by the suppliers/manufacturers and a few brewery owners.
I guess that's my big concern. If I spend 100 large on an education to only make 30,000 a year it really isn't worth it. As much as I enjoy the art and science of brewing it may be better to keep as a hobby. On the other hand if I try and fail, I can always fall back on my engineering degree so I guess time will tell
Not trying to discourage you, but I've been in a similar situation. It's not related to brewing, but a similar situation. I'll try and make it quick.
When I was 18 I worked at a Chevrolet dealership changing oil and other maintenance stuff. I wanted to be a mechanic because I loved (and still do) working on cars. An older technician in his 30's advised me not to. His words, "don't make your hobby your job. You will end up hating it." He told me his hobby was working on his muscle car, now he hates working on any car since he does it 10 hours a day every day.
Now that's from one guy. Take it how you wish. It might have just been a crappy attitude, but I can see how it could apply to any hobby.
Again, not trying to discourage you. If starting a brewery is what you want to do, then by all means do it!
When I was 18 I worked at a Chevrolet dealership changing oil and other maintenance stuff. I wanted to be a mechanic because I loved (and still do) working on cars. An older technician in his 30's advised me not to. His words, "don't make your hobby your job. You will end up hating it." He told me his hobby was working on his muscle car, now he hates working on any car since he does it 10 hours a day every day.
Now that's from one guy. Take it how you wish. It might have just been a crappy attitude, but I can see how it could apply to any hobby.
Again, not trying to discourage you. If starting a brewery is what you want to do, then by all means do it!
Magic8Ball
Well-Known Member
With a Chem Engineering degree you should be able to find a traditional brewery job or one that services the brewing industry. I once heard ( I think Jamill Z) say something like that he didn't want to ruin a great hobby by going pro. Funny thing is he owns a brewery now. If I didnt have kids a wife and a big ass mortgage....hmmm
Magic8Ball said:
And I seriously doubt many, if any, successful breweries were started by someone who didn't start off as a hobbyist. I don't have hard facts, just speculation. Personality makes a big difference as well.
Here is what I would do....take your degree, find a job that will make you a lot of money. Stay out of debt and save your money. After 20 years you should be very financially well off and can go start your own brewery without nearly as much financial pressure. Of course you will keep homebrewing the whole time!!
ja09
Well-Known Member
Wow.. are you me? This is my exact story. Started working on cars as a hobby in my teens, then at a shop for a couple years (Chevrolet nonetheless). After high school I got a degree in automotive technology and many ase certifications. Almost EVERYONE in this profession along the way told me not to and I'll end up hating it. Well after only a year as a tech I started realizing this and went back to school for business management, started a successful business in web development & internet marketing, and never looked back. To this day, I still hate working on cars, even my own. Don't know if this would be the same with brewing, but I imagine it very well could be.
I'm an electrical engineer. Two things I know:
1) A EE degree allows me to live in SoCal, in a nice house, with three kids and a wife who stays home with those kids and still be pretty comfortable.
2) Brewing doesn't pay sh*t.
Being a ChemE, you could potentially get a good well-paying job at a BMC-type place (right out of school, decent 5 figures, within a decade, 6 figures). Not as a brewer, of course, but as a ChemE.
But brewing? Save it for your hobby. You're passing up *WAY* too much coin if you try to make it your job, and you might end up hating it.
bwarbiany said:
This. I had the pipe dream of starting a brewery for a little while. Then I realized there's a lot more job security and a lot more money if I spent my next two years getting my masters in environmental engineering rather than trying to scrounge up funds for a brewery that might not even have any kind of longevity.
If I get tired of brewing as a hobby I can take a short break from it and come back to it refreshed. If it was my job I'd have a much harder time doing that.
bulldogbrewhaus
Well-Known Member
The ROI of brew school is probably not worth it. But working a job you hate is often worse than being poor (trust me on that one). IMO the best bang for your buck is UC Davis. 5 months, about 15k, when you graduate you will be a certified brewmaster. Plus Charlie Bamforth is the man. You might consider employment in another sector of the brewing industry. With your education and skill set companies like Wyeast, White Labs, Hop Union, Brewers Supply Group, Rahr, Cargill etc. might be interested in your services.
Do what you need to do to get a job with a big brewery as a ChemE first, you may get to learn everything while you get paid, or even realize whether or not you would even like it.
Personally, as long as you like Chemical Engineering, keep that as your job, its going to be REALLY hard to come close to the same compensation with a brewery...and if you think you are opening your own, I hope you are good at real business, marketing and financials, because that seems to be what is needed for anyone to "run their own business" successfully. I've known lots of technically savvy folks **** the bed when they started a business.
So you have to know whether its right for you.
Another idea is to work your normal ChemE job and offer to help at a local brewery/brewpub (maybe at night) to learn and see if you like it too. (not sure how easy that is, but may be worth a shot)
CycloneinCarolina
Member
I'm a fellow Chem E too, this post sums up my thoughts nicely
I'm a fairly recent ChE grad myself (been out 3 years). My advice is to MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE you do a 3 term cooperative education internship or get a summer internship every summer if you're not already a junior. It'll make your degree take a year longer but it is well worth it. I worked at an environmental engineering firm for two summers, worked at a paper mill one summer, and did a 2 term co-op with Eastman Chemical (recession killed the 3rd term). What those taught me is that I really enjoy chemical engineering. Plus it makes you much more attractive to future employers. If you do a co-op and decide you don't really care for the kind of work you'd be doing as a ChE then by all means follow whatever your passion is.
For me, the fact that I enjoy ChE work and that you can get 60-100k straight out of school (depending on where you work) led me to continue doing that and keep brewing as a hobby. Of course opening a brewery is always an option for me.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about ChE stuff
For me, the fact that I enjoy ChE work and that you can get 60-100k straight out of school (depending on where you work) led me to continue doing that and keep brewing as a hobby. Of course opening a brewery is always an option for me.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about ChE stuff
Andrikos
Well-Known Member
Chemical Engineers are the highest paid engineers in the business (I'm EE).
If you like money, I'd suggest finding a CE job in the brewing industry while keeping your brewing hobby.
After you gain some experience, you'll know when/where to make a move if your passion is still there.
Your trump card is that you will be a highly skilled Engineer which you can fall back on at any time. Not many people out there can say that...
Best of luck.
If you like money, I'd suggest finding a CE job in the brewing industry while keeping your brewing hobby.
After you gain some experience, you'll know when/where to make a move if your passion is still there.
Your trump card is that you will be a highly skilled Engineer which you can fall back on at any time. Not many people out there can say that...
Best of luck.
True, if you already have an engineering degree, it's probably a good idea to use it.
However, let me offer a different perspective. I am 25 years old. I graduated college with a political science degree in 2010 which I found to be completely useless. After countless job applications I got two phone interviews and zero jobs. So I took a job working for a farm and began working on opening a nano. I was following a bill in the state legislature that would allow on-premise sales and since I knew it was going to pass, I decided to go for it.
It took me over a year but I am now two weeks from opening my nano. Out of college, I had to go back to my job working at Starbucks to pay rent. The media and experts were putting forth a constant drum-beat of "you have to major in hard sciences now." I also had to listen to my friends who majored in engineering and CS brag incessantly about their salaries. I wished I had picked a different major and I felt like a failure.
However, I knew one thing. I was never really interested in working in engineering. It just isn't something I'd be happy doing.
Now I'm very happy with the way things went. I raised a bunch of money via Kickstarter and got a ton of PR. I got coverage in the Washington Post and now I'm the man locally. I built a kickass electric system. I'm 25 and I have my own brewery
Based on my friend's nano's numbers, I should do pretty well.My previously mentioned friends are kinda bitter because people heap praise on me all the time right in front of them.
Plus I could someday make a lot of money.Thanks for the advice everyone. I still have a little over a year left of school with my internship so I definitely still have time to think. I feel like the best option will be trying to get a ChemE job related to the brewing industry and save up some money. Who knows maybe someday I will actually open a brewery/brewpub.
Thanks again!
Cheers
Thanks again!
Cheers
Totally with you on that... I have a very close friend who started at the University of Michigan in ME, after two and a half years dropped out, eventually finishing his degree(s) at a community college. He's freakin' brilliant -- one of the smartest people and best at math that I've ever known. But he didn't want to be an engineer.
I definitely know that money shouldn't trump happiness. When I was a freshman at Purdue, they had an engineering seminar class where people from various engineering disciplines would come in and talk about what they do. One of the presenters was a patent lawyer, and because this requires a very unique collection of skills, it's a very lucrative field. At the time (1996), the starting salaries for a patent lawyer were 90K-160K/year. I can only imagine they've grown quite a bit since.
For a couple days, I seriously thought about whether I wanted to go that route. And actually, looking back on it, I think I've got the collection of skills that would have made me very good at it. But it seemed like it would have been the most boring, mind-numbing job, and I chose not to pursue it based on that. In the end, I could be wrong and it could have been a fascinating job, but luckily I've ended up in a job I really enjoy today anyway.
It sounded like the OP wanted to look at brewing as a sort of "applied ChemE" job, so I assumed he would want to use his ChemE background.
gr8shandini
Well-Known Member
I'm an aerospace engineer and I had a very similar dilemma coming out of college about 15 years ago. I wanted to be a pilot but was (am) too blind to get accepted into a military program. So my options were to spend another 50 - 70 grand working my way up to the point where I could be hired by the commuter airlines and earn $23,000 per year, or go into engineering and make double that.
I took the money. I eventually worked my way into flight test and have been considered "aircrew" on many programs and still get to see some pretty cool testing even when I'm not allowed to fly. However, in some ways, being that close to your dream makes it even harder to deal with. There were many days where I grew very resentful of the pilots because they get all the credit for a test that may have required a team of several dozen to complete successfully. I also had to work longer hours and made less money. Luckily, my hostility has faded as I've grown older, but I was hating life for a while.
So, given that background, here are my thoughts on your situation:
1. Evaluate if this is truly your passion or not. I really, really wanted to fly coming out of school. But now that I know what the life of a pilot is truly like - as opposed to what you see on TV or in the movies - I don't envy them nearly as much. So you definitely want to spend some time at a brewery to see exactly how things work in a commercial setting.
2. If it is your passion, determine if you can live with doing something related. Is it enough to know that you're part of the team making great beer, or do you need to be the head honcho? In my line of work, I'm OK (now) with being a team player, but then again, there's no real creative work involved. How would you feel if you worked as a ChemE at a BMC type brewery where you didn't respect the product?
3. If it is your passion, and you need to be head brewer, start down this path now. You already know how to be a poor college student. Being a poor brewer would be no problem so long as you've never had a taste of the bigger salary. Once you get used to making high-five to six figures with a 40-50 hour work week, crashing on a futon and eating ramen while working 70+ hours doesn't sound so great. If you're good, the money will come eventually. If you fail, you can always get that entry level engineering gig.
And as for market saturation, I think it depends on what kind of brewery you want to run. If you're looking to be a straight up packaging brewery duking it out for shelf space at the liquor store, yeah, I think that market is saturated. However, we're just now back at the number of breweries that we had prior to prohibition and we've got 3 times the population. I think that many of those breweries were more like what we'd think of as brewpubs/nanos servicing an area the size of a neighborhood or two.
Right now, it seems like the brewpub is the way to go. Selling beer that costs $150/bbl at $5/pint is a good margin. Selling it for $200/bbl to a local bar, not so much. Unfortunately, that means you're getting into the restaurant biz as well. That's also a dicey proposition.
I took the money. I eventually worked my way into flight test and have been considered "aircrew" on many programs and still get to see some pretty cool testing even when I'm not allowed to fly. However, in some ways, being that close to your dream makes it even harder to deal with. There were many days where I grew very resentful of the pilots because they get all the credit for a test that may have required a team of several dozen to complete successfully. I also had to work longer hours and made less money. Luckily, my hostility has faded as I've grown older, but I was hating life for a while.
So, given that background, here are my thoughts on your situation:
1. Evaluate if this is truly your passion or not. I really, really wanted to fly coming out of school. But now that I know what the life of a pilot is truly like - as opposed to what you see on TV or in the movies - I don't envy them nearly as much. So you definitely want to spend some time at a brewery to see exactly how things work in a commercial setting.
2. If it is your passion, determine if you can live with doing something related. Is it enough to know that you're part of the team making great beer, or do you need to be the head honcho? In my line of work, I'm OK (now) with being a team player, but then again, there's no real creative work involved. How would you feel if you worked as a ChemE at a BMC type brewery where you didn't respect the product?
3. If it is your passion, and you need to be head brewer, start down this path now. You already know how to be a poor college student. Being a poor brewer would be no problem so long as you've never had a taste of the bigger salary. Once you get used to making high-five to six figures with a 40-50 hour work week, crashing on a futon and eating ramen while working 70+ hours doesn't sound so great. If you're good, the money will come eventually. If you fail, you can always get that entry level engineering gig.
And as for market saturation, I think it depends on what kind of brewery you want to run. If you're looking to be a straight up packaging brewery duking it out for shelf space at the liquor store, yeah, I think that market is saturated. However, we're just now back at the number of breweries that we had prior to prohibition and we've got 3 times the population. I think that many of those breweries were more like what we'd think of as brewpubs/nanos servicing an area the size of a neighborhood or two.
Right now, it seems like the brewpub is the way to go. Selling beer that costs $150/bbl at $5/pint is a good margin. Selling it for $200/bbl to a local bar, not so much. Unfortunately, that means you're getting into the restaurant biz as well. That's also a dicey proposition.
brokebucket
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A couple of points:
-just because you are getting a chem engineering degree doesnt mean you will be a chemical engineer for all your days. Plenty of people get a degree and do something with their degree a little different. Like sales, or technical systems expert.
-Hobbies come and go, and money is not as evil and soul sucking as everybody seems to make it. Debt on the other hand can trap you like a cage. The ability to pull a good salary and minimize your debt can free up endless possibilities in the future.
In short: 1) finish your degree. 2) brew beer for fun. 3) get a good job that you can stand. 4) Live modestly. 5) enjoy life
-just because you are getting a chem engineering degree doesnt mean you will be a chemical engineer for all your days. Plenty of people get a degree and do something with their degree a little different. Like sales, or technical systems expert.
-Hobbies come and go, and money is not as evil and soul sucking as everybody seems to make it. Debt on the other hand can trap you like a cage. The ability to pull a good salary and minimize your debt can free up endless possibilities in the future.
In short: 1) finish your degree. 2) brew beer for fun. 3) get a good job that you can stand. 4) Live modestly. 5) enjoy life
While I can't speak from a brewing perspective at all, I can relate information I've learned from brewers and brewmasters I've interviewed.
They all, more or less, have stated that a person is better off learning how to perfect brewing skills at home or through helping out at a brewery. For example, gain skills apprenticing at a local brewery before even stepping foot into the business side of things. Aside from financials, there's a lot to learn on a micro, or even nano level, that can make or break the business.
Going to school for brewing science seems like an exorbitant cost that can easily be replaced (on a different level) for free by helping out at a real brewery. In addition, you'll likely make some great friends and connections at the same time. You can even do this during the summer while still in school. In the end though, brewing beer rarely makes money, at least from what I've learned.
Edit: In regards to the "turning a hobby into a career" thing, I can't say that I agree, as I turned my hobby into an amazing career. While it's unrelated to beer, I still thoroughly enjoy it, despite the ups and downs.
They all, more or less, have stated that a person is better off learning how to perfect brewing skills at home or through helping out at a brewery. For example, gain skills apprenticing at a local brewery before even stepping foot into the business side of things. Aside from financials, there's a lot to learn on a micro, or even nano level, that can make or break the business.
Going to school for brewing science seems like an exorbitant cost that can easily be replaced (on a different level) for free by helping out at a real brewery. In addition, you'll likely make some great friends and connections at the same time. You can even do this during the summer while still in school. In the end though, brewing beer rarely makes money, at least from what I've learned.
Edit: In regards to the "turning a hobby into a career" thing, I can't say that I agree, as I turned my hobby into an amazing career. While it's unrelated to beer, I still thoroughly enjoy it, despite the ups and downs.
Oh, I agree. Almost everyone else in the industry that I've talked to has said they just want someone with experience, regardless of how you get it. Shelling out the cash for a degree will get you it, but so will doing ***** duty at a brewery/brewpub.
Still, I'd like to hire someone with a degree to replace me when I expand. From what I've read, they really teach you some interesting things.
On the doing what you love thing, in high school I worked at a ski and skate shop. I loved skiing and longboarding. I loved my job and bought a ton of gear and did a ton of riding. It was great. In college I worked at a coffee shop. I love coffee. I drank a ton of coffee, more than anyone should, and it was great.
I love designing beer, brewing beer, and drinking it. I now do that for a living. It's great
Chemical Engineer here working for a large company. My advice, if you want to have a job in the brewing industry go straight into a BMC as a Chemical Engineer and get the financial security right off the bat. A lot of those companies cross train. I had a friend who started working for a BMC straight out of college and was able to get into the brewing/ R&D portion of the company fairly quickly. Go for the financial security first and you can always follow your passion as a homebrewer.
Beezy
Well-Known Member
I would like to brew pro eventually. I have a physically demanding, dead end job. My significant other brings home the bacon. I doubt would hate it although I'm sure it wouldn't be as much fun.
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Get a job outside of brewing first. As a chemical engineer you could find yourself doing stuff like designing processes or equipment full of heat exchangers, pumps, skids, piping valves, etc. You'll do things like diagram process and instrumentation diagrams, size heat exchagers, pick pumps, calculate head loss, heat loads etc. All the while you'll be doing mass and thermal balances.
Do this for a while, then think about becoming a professional brewer. You'll make waaaaay more money designing the brewing rigs and building them than you probably will as a brewer.
Even as a mediocre chemical engineering student you'll probably start at $65k or so.
EDIT: I'm a simple mechanical engineer now doing the above. I went to school because I wanted to brew. It just so happened I found a better job and I get to work on all the stuff I'd throw on a killer brewing rig.
Do this for a while, then think about becoming a professional brewer. You'll make waaaaay more money designing the brewing rigs and building them than you probably will as a brewer.
Even as a mediocre chemical engineering student you'll probably start at $65k or so.
EDIT: I'm a simple mechanical engineer now doing the above. I went to school because I wanted to brew. It just so happened I found a better job and I get to work on all the stuff I'd throw on a killer brewing rig.
I have been working in a brewery for the past 5 months as a brewer. The work is hard and the hours are long. It is filled with heavy lifting, (can you lift 180lbs and walk with it?) hot/cold environments and dangerous chemicals.
I wear my knee high, steel toed rubber boots between 10-15 hours straight and average 13 hours. I seldom get to sit and take no real breaks to speak of even for eating.
In the time I have been a brewer I have been covered in caustic acid that was 70C twice. Both times due to mechanical failures. and that does not even count the hundreds of cuts on my hands and zwikle gashes.
I have no real brewery training and almost every brewery requires some sort of official brewery training n9ot something close like "chem engineer" to get in the door to flip kegs. I am the exception and am stuck where I am for a good time.
Speaking of stuck, the head brewer is younger than me so I am at my glass ceiling.
Think you get "free beer"? if you get hurt on the job one of the 1st things they do is take a breathalyzer and if you have alcohol in you, guess who isn't getting workman's comp? Sure I get to sample beer some if it is unfiltered/uncarbed and warm, some of it hot from the microwave and some is just not carbed up yet. yummy.
I make less than a fast food manager for wages. I like my job for different reasons but most people are not cut out for this line of work.
I wear my knee high, steel toed rubber boots between 10-15 hours straight and average 13 hours. I seldom get to sit and take no real breaks to speak of even for eating.
In the time I have been a brewer I have been covered in caustic acid that was 70C twice. Both times due to mechanical failures. and that does not even count the hundreds of cuts on my hands and zwikle gashes.
I have no real brewery training and almost every brewery requires some sort of official brewery training n9ot something close like "chem engineer" to get in the door to flip kegs. I am the exception and am stuck where I am for a good time.
Speaking of stuck, the head brewer is younger than me so I am at my glass ceiling.
Think you get "free beer"? if you get hurt on the job one of the 1st things they do is take a breathalyzer and if you have alcohol in you, guess who isn't getting workman's comp? Sure I get to sample beer some if it is unfiltered/uncarbed and warm, some of it hot from the microwave and some is just not carbed up yet. yummy.
I make less than a fast food manager for wages. I like my job for different reasons but most people are not cut out for this line of work.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
I've been contemplating going semi-pro....think "monetized hobby." I have commercial space, which I own ourtright. I could charge myself $50/month rent to cover the taxes and insurance. ~2 bbl system, brew 1-2 nights a week, distribute kegs to one or two select local pubs, perhaps a tap room two nights a week eventually. do nothing I can't pay for out of pocket. keep it simple. keep it fun...and keep the original career job which actually pays the bills and keeps the family afloat.
go be the chemE, make a good living, and keep the hobby. Maybe with time an opportunity will arise but it's not an especially lucrative business for most brewers.
go be the chemE, make a good living, and keep the hobby. Maybe with time an opportunity will arise but it's not an especially lucrative business for most brewers.
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I forgot to mention chemE's get to work with reactors. Think of a gigantic mash tun.
I'd also be tempted to say brewery pay probably isn't half what a chemE makes, or even ME, but probably one-third.
EDIT: You'll also get hotter chicks making more money. Your house will be nicer, your kids will go to better schools, your car will be nicer.
I'd also be tempted to say brewery pay probably isn't half what a chemE makes, or even ME, but probably one-third.
EDIT: You'll also get hotter chicks making more money. Your house will be nicer, your kids will go to better schools, your car will be nicer.
petep1980 said:
Very good point, I'm going to look into brewery related fields and see what comes up. I still may go into a brewing program just for the fun of it because hey even if I don't end up working in a brewery ill be able to make some damn good beer. :$
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