BrewBuilt X3 - bottling process

[DavidBD]

I recently ordered an BrewBuilt X3 conical fermenter, with glycol chiller. It's backordered, but I must say the anticipation is exciting. I'm also getting the pressure kit and hop bong.

I currently package into 1 liter flip top bottles, using priming sugar and a bottling wand. This works well. The yeast takes care of any oxygen and the beer is great. It takes a couple of weeks to carbonate, but I'm not looking to optimize speed or cost, just quality.

I plan to keep using 1 liter bottles, not kegs. Bottles are easy to store and transport. So how should I alter my bottling process with the X3?

The BrewBuilt pressure kit includes a spunding valve. To carbonate, would I simply rely on the spunding valve... or add a little priming sugar toward the end... or perhaps add pressure to the fermenter using a tank of CO2? I know the X3 will hold 15 PSI, but that may be its limit(?) due to the pressure relief valve. What process do you recommend for carbonation?

Also, assuming the beer is already carbonated in the fermenter, what type of bottle filler would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for any process advice. Cheers.

 

[DuncB]

If you chill the beer to 7C and have it with stable 15 psi the beer will have 2.5 vols CO2.
This will require supplemental CO2 as you can only spund to 15psi and that will be at ferment temperature.
Say 20C and this is only 1.65 vol of CO2.
I use spunding on my pressure capable fermenter and when I do bottle I use the Williams Warn counter pressure bottle filler.
It works great, you will need a CO2 bottle and regulator to counter pressure fill.
Be aware that the rubber washers on those flip top bottles tend to be silicone and no are gas permeable. Therefore not good for long term storage.

 

[DavidBD]

If you chill the beer to 7C and have it with stable 15 psi the beer will have 2.5 vols CO2.
This will require supplemental CO2 as you can only spund to 15psi and that will be at ferment temperature.
Say 20C and this is only 1.65 vol of CO2.
I use spunding on my pressure capable fermenter and when I do bottle I use the Williams Warn counter pressure bottle filler.
It works great, you will need a CO2 bottle and regulator to counter pressure fill.
Be aware that the rubber washers on those flip top bottles tend to be silicone and no are gas permeable. Therefore not good for long term storage.

Thank you, Mr. Bayne. This is just the information I needed. I didn't realize silicone was highly gas permeable, but a quick search confirms what you said. At least it will result in the egress of CO2 rather than the ingress of O2. I'm going to put balloons over a few bottles to try and gauge how quickly this is happening.

Around 2.5 volumes of CO2 will be great for most brews, although low for a German wheat beer. I believe the fermenter can get quite cold, but you make another good point that it must be fermenting to produce gas. So it sounds like I should spund as it ferments, then get the fermenter good and cold and top off the CO2 so it settles around 15 psi, then either leave it alone for some period of time or perhaps periodically bump the psi and slosh the beer around as gas goes into solution. Is that right? How long do you reckon that will normally take?

Thanks again! I'll start looking into the WilliamsWarn and considering regulators.

 

[pinemarten]

A Blichmann Beer Gun could also be a good option. It’s not necessary but sure makes purging the bottle and filling easier.

No matter what you ultimately decide, you’re going to need to get a wye fitting for your co2 regulator. You’ll need to be putting gas into the X3 via the pressure pack to push beer out and at the same time you’ll need access to co2 to purge all the o2 out of your empty bottle.

Something like this will do the trick and be much cheaper than other options. If you do a wye, instead of a fancier option like a multi regulator, you’ll also need to get a valve to connect to the wye.

 

[DavidBD]

A Blichmann Beer Gun could also be a good option. It’s not necessary but sure makes purging the bottle and filling easier.

No matter what you ultimately decide, you’re going to need to get a wye fitting for your co2 regulator. You’ll need to be putting gas into the X3 via the pressure pack to push beer out and at the same time you’ll need access to co2 to purge all the o2 out of your empty bottle.

Something like this will do the trick and be much cheaper than other options. If you do a wye, instead of a fancier option like a multi regulator, you’ll also need to get a valve to connect to the wye.

Thanks I appreciate the advice. I'm bookmarking that site. The beer gun looks like a nice, simple rig that is easy to use and easy to store.
Regarding the process:
Once you connect a gas tank to the fermenter via the regulator, do you just leave the gas tank valve open, or is it better to keep the tank valve closed and just crack it open every so often to carbonate? I'm thinking about possible leaks and equipment longevity.
Also, would you turn the regulator pressure down when bottling?

 

[DuncB]

The Williams warn has the splitter to balance pressure it X3 and it the bottle.
CO2 and Oxygen are different gases and diffuse along their own gradients.
Just because CO2 is diffusing out it doesn't stop Oxygen at all.
But silicone less permeable to CO2 otherwise the bottles would be completely hopeless.
Fill a latex balloon with just CO2 and it won't take long for it to equilibrate with the air.
This calculator helps to work out pressure, temp and vols.
https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/
I've been very happy with the WW, it's given me fantastic stability for beers I bottle. Non messy and I have a separate one for Brett beers.
Regarding time and pressure difficult to be exact about that, I spund to 25 or 30 psi in my fermenter that gets me very close to my vols at keg fridge, post cold crash temps.
I'd suggest once gas demand is stable then vols is in balance, provided no leaks in system.

 

[pinemarten]

Thanks I appreciate the advice. I'm bookmarking that site. The beer gun looks like a nice, simple rig that is easy to use and easy to store.
Regarding the process:
Once you connect a gas tank to the fermenter via the regulator, do you just leave the gas tank valve open, or is it better to keep the tank valve closed and just crack it open every so often to carbonate? I'm thinking about possible leaks and equipment longevity.
Also, would you turn the regulator pressure down when bottling?

It would depend on what you are trying to accomplish. I would look at carbonating your beer and racking/bottling your beer as two completely separate processes even though they both involve co2.

For carbonating, just like in a keg, you can connect co2 and just wait a week or two for the beer to become carbonated at whatever PSI you set your regulator to. But keep in mind that co2 dissolves poorly in warmer liquids so you'd need to keep your fermenter cold, ideally below 40F, for that to work. That would be inefficient in time, electricity, and co2 used. I mention electricity as you'd very likely need a glycol chiller for this to be a decent idea. If you don't have a glycol chiller, there would be little point in getting this specific fermenter as its claim to fame is the cooling jacket. A much better option for carbonating in any conical fermenter would be to use a carbonation stone which could cut your carbonating time down to a day or two. With the X3 fermenter, you'd be in luck as the Flex Chamber has a port that will accept a 'carbonation cap' type of carb stone that you can pickup for $20 - $30 as opposed to $60, up to One Trillion Dollars, for a tri clamp model. With either a carb stone or simply using head pressure added from the top via the pressure pack, you would leave the tank valve open the entire time. That said, leaving it open is not the same as flowing co2 the entire time. After a few minutes, the vessel has filled with gas and you are just leaving it open to 'top up' any you are losing. That assumes no leaks which you mentioned as a concern. But leaks shouldn't play into your calculus there. If you have any leaks you need to sort those out before anything else happens. If you have a leak, wasting co2 should be the least of your worries as if the conditions exist for co2 to leak out you also have the conditions for oxygen to leak in and then your beer is going to be nasty.

For bottling it is generally suggested to turn down the pressure some. The Beer Gun folks say to start at 6 PSI. Remember that the 6 PSI you'd be adding into the Pressure Pack is different than what your beer is carobanted at (probably ~12 PSI). The 6 PSI is simply to push the liquid out of the fermenter, not carb the beer. The flip side of the turning down the pressure coin is that at a reduced pressure it's going to be more of a pain to purge the bottles of oxygen. If you are using a wye off the regualtor, that presents a bit of a conundrum as you can only set a single pressure. If you want to pull out all the stops, skip the wye and get a two pressure regualtor. If you ever start serving from kegs, you'll be happy you have it.

 

[DavidBD]

The Williams warn has the splitter to balance pressure it X3 and it the bottle.
CO2 and Oxygen are different gases and diffuse along their own gradients.
Just because CO2 is diffusing out it doesn't stop Oxygen at all.
But silicone less permeable to CO2 otherwise the bottles would be completely hopeless.
Fill a latex balloon with just CO2 and it won't take long for it to equilibrate with the air.
This calculator helps to work out pressure, temp and vols.
https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/
I've been very happy with the WW, it's given me fantastic stability for beers I bottle. Non messy and I have a separate one for Brett beers.
Regarding time and pressure difficult to be exact about that, I spund to 25 or 30 psi in my fermenter that gets me very close to my vols at keg fridge, post cold crash temps.
I'd suggest once gas demand is stable then vols is in balance, provided no leaks in system.

The X3 is evidently limited to 15 psi, but per the above calculator, that should be enough once the beer is cold.

The WilliamsWarn reviews on MoreBeer suggest that it works well, but confuses many, likely comes without necessary gas fittings and may require a custom wooden bracket if it isn't mounted on a wall. These seem like trivial setup issues. In this thread, folks reported oxygen problems when using the Beer Gun, which would present a major and ongoing concern.

 

[DuncB]

The WW comes with fittings and tubing to connect to gas and liquid.
Ball lock connectors are needed.
The WW mk 1 has rubber suction feet if free standing or can be wall mounted.
The MK 2 is designed to stand or attach to a wall.

 

[DavidBD]

I'm waiting for my WilliamsWarn bottle filler, which is backordered, but should be here in another week or three.

I asked Morebeer what else I'll need to hook it up to the X3. I need regulators and everything. For those who may be interested, here's what they kindly suggested. This is based on an email they sent me.
-------------------------------
From the bottom up, your CO2 tank will connect to the D1077 regulator, and tubing D1717A, and gas-in ball lock DUO150. These fittings are 8mm OD

For the bottle filler, add FE133 into the back end of D1077 the Y splitter, this will connect to the DUO150 when in use.

For the outlet of the Y splitter, add D1723B tubing, and finish with DUO157, which will connect to the keg. These fittings are 6.35mm OD.

D1093 is a low-cost inline regulator that can be added inline to the purge line, between the Y splitter and counter bottle filler. You can always upgrade to this option if you find the single regulator difficult to work with.
-------------------------------
I don't know what the "Y splitter" is. Perhaps that is one of the fittings that comes with the WW?
Here are links to the various bits and bobs that they suggested.

D1077 - KOMOS® Premium Dual Gauge CO2 Regulator | Industrial-Grade | 0–60 PSI Operating Range | 1/4" Flare Fitting with Barbed Outlet & Duotight Adapter Fitting
https://www.morebeer.com/products/komos-dual-gauge-co2-regulator.html

D1717A - EVABarrier Double Wall Draft Tubing - 4 mm ID x 8 mm OD - 5.5 ft. Length
https://www.morebeer.com/products/e...-tubing-532-4-mm-id-516-8-od-placeholder.html

DUO150 - Duotight Gas In Ball Lock QD | 8 mm Push-In Fitting https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-ball-lock-quick-disconnect-qd-gas-8-mm.html

FE133 - Carbonation and Line Cleaning Ball Lock Quick Disconnect (QD) Cap - Red Plastic
https://www.morebeer.com/products/carbonation-line-cleaning-ball-lock-cap-plastic.html

D1723B
EVABarrier Double Wall Draft Tubing - 3 mm ID x 6.35 mm OD | 13 ft. Length
https://www.morebeer.com/products/e...draft-tubing-3-mm-id-635-od-39-ft-roll-3.html

DUO157 - Duotight Gas In Ball Lock QD | 6.35 mm Push-In Fitting
https://www.morebeer.com/products/duotight-ball-lock-quick-disconnect-qd-gas-8-mm.html
(This is the same link as above, but need to choose the 6.35mm size)

D1093 - Duotight In-Line Regulator | Built-In Pressure Gauge | 0-150 PSI | Liquid & Gas Compatible| 6.35 mm Duotight
https://www.morebeer.com/products/d...ge-0150-psi-liquid-gas-compatible-635-mm.html

 

[DuncB]

I have a standard regulator on my CO2 tank with 8mm external Evabarrier, normally with ball lock gas on the end as it's my walk around tank.
I changed the duotight connections on the top of the WW to right angle 8mm fittings.
I have a length of 8mm Eva that connects into the gaswsidemonwtop of WW. I put an 8mm T in this line and connect it to the gas reg line out after removing ball lock.
The other end of T line has a gas ball lock on which connects to the gas post on the keg.
8mm Eva barrier separate line for beer plugs into beer side of WW and the other end has ball lock liquid connection for the keg beer out.
I check keg pressure with gauge before starting and then set gas pressure on regulator a couple psi higher than this for bottling phase.
No need for any extra regs.
Can't send photo as on way to work at the moment.
I changed to 8mm as my lines are mostly that size.
I think WW comes with 1/4 inch which meant adapters.

 

[DavidBD]

I've been very happy with the WW, it's given me fantastic stability for beers I bottle. Non messy and I have a separate one for Brett beers.
Regarding time and pressure difficult to be exact about that, I spund to 25 or 30 psi in my fermenter that gets me very close to my vols at keg fridge, post cold crash temps.

I finally got the X3 and am now fermenting the first batch in it.
I realize someone reading this thread in the future may not understand what was recommended for bottling, and there is a possibility that links will become obsolete. Therefore, I will attempt to more fully describe the setup:
For the main CO2 feed, a regulator sits on the tank and an 8mm EVAbarrier tube runs from that to a gas-in ball valve. This simple 8mm gas feed stays connected to the regulator. Then, an additional rig is used when bottling. The WW and all other connections are 6.35 mm. The WW comes with a 6.35mm Y splitter. The WW also came with a small valve and a line for beer in, which includes a quick disconnect ball valve for liquid. It did not come with a quick disconnect for gas.
To accept the gas in, this item plugs right into the Y splitter: [FE133 - Carbonation and Line Cleaning Ball Lock Quick Disconnect (QD) Cap].
One side of the FE133 fitting plugs directly into the 6.35mm Y splitter and the other side of the FE133 has a fitting like a keg post where the main CO2 line's quick disconnect can plug into it. This provides a nice way to connect and disconnect gas as needed. Then, going out from the Y splitter, one side goes to a quick connect ball valve which goes to the fermenter (or keg), and the other side of the Y provides CO2 via a small secondary regulator to the WW bottler, which I am looking forward to using. The whole rig is kind of clumsy and I may try to make it more tidy later.

This fermenter should be able to carbonate the beer given time, but a keg can handle much more pressure. I'm toying with the idea of moving the brew to a keg to complete carbonation, and then bottling from the keg once I'm happy with the carbonation level. One good thing about bottles is that I can store multiple different batches pretty easily. I can easily have 6 batches on the shelf, but I would not want to keep 6 half empty kegs.

 

[DuncB]

I changed the top connectors on the WW to 8mm duotight at 90degrees, this standardized to my other gas and beer lines.
Obviously changed the splitter and ball lock connectors to suit.
Very good write up though.
I would put a micrometer on the oring spares and order some from an oring merchant. A lot cheaper than the packets from WW

 

[DavidBD]

I changed the top connectors on the WW to 8mm duotight at 90degrees, this standardized to my other gas and beer lines.
Obviously changed the splitter and ball lock connectors to suit.
Very good write up though.
I would put a micrometer on the oring spares and order some from an oring merchant. A lot cheaper than the packets from WW

Well, the WW BrewBottler worked a treat, but it left quite a lot of headspace on my 1 liter bottles. After initially filling each bottle, I lowered it to the end of the fill tube and topped it off, which all seemed a bit kludgy. There's probably a slicker way to ensure the bottles are full.
As it so happened, a guy selling various other items gave me a great deal on a used Blichmann beer gun so now I have that, too, but I doubt it will work as well as the WW because the counterpressure does control the foam.

 

[DuncB]

I just fill mine to the top and then the dead space of the filling tube leaves the appropriate gap.

 

[DavidBD]

I suppose most fill methods leave a large gap on these longer, larger 1L bottles. I'm not certain that topping off the bottles is a great idea, but doing so causes a bit of foam, which hopefully pushes out any air. Capping on foam might be better than simply pulling out the fill tube and having atmosphere take its place as the level drops. At any rate, this worked well with my latest beer. I like the WW. I clamped it to a table. I also added non-slip pads where it contacts the bottom of the bottle. Thanks again for the recommendations.

 

[DuncB]

I always cap my bottles on foam, the volume of the " straw " is the factor in the " underfill " , I have shortened my filling tube so it's only 2/3 of the way down the bottle.