Brew with lid on or off

[libirm]

I brewed with a friend this weekend and he told me that beer comes out better when temp is kept to 200 degrees max and the lid is on.

He makes very good beer so I said maybe the point of not boiling and keeping the lid make be legitimate....


So the question I haveis - when you brew, do you keep the lid on of off?

Also- is there any harm/benefit to not boiling the wort?

 

[Cyclman]

The boil causes wort movement in the pot, so I would think it is desireable. The only reason I can think of to not come to a full boil is to avoid boilovers- I boil my wort for 15 min before adding hops, this reduces boilovers significantly.

 

[brew_ny]

lid off with all grain it drives off DMS so they say

 

[Gameface]

I suppose you've heard of DMS. Seems like his beer would contain DMS.

My own experience with DMS is limited but here it is:

When I started brewing with a refractometer I made a beer, in this case a best bitter using Maris Otter as the base with a little crystal and biscuit malt. I was also using first wort hopping, in this case I think with some EKG and northern brewer.

The reason I mention the refractometer is that I stopped sparging early because I had reached my pre-boil gravity. I then also stopped boiling early, after 40min, because I had reached my post boil gravity. My late addition hops were flameout hops and I figured with the FWH and flameout hops it didn't matter so much that I didn't boil for a full 60 min.

The beer was pretty good but had an odd flavor I couldn't really put my finger on. I was using very fresh hops just after the harvest from hops direct and I thought maybe I was tasting vegetable flavors because the hops we just so damn fresh.

Other than that I really thought I had a phenomenal beer on my hands. I entered the beer into a local comp.

Judging notes indicated the presence of DMS. Looking back at my brewing notes everything started making a lot of sense.

It still was a pretty phenomenal beer, despite the small amount of DMS. Ended up taking a bronze in the category with it and my ESB took a gold.

Anyway, the short boil didn't get rid of all the DMS. Figure keeping the lid on would do the same thing.

But on a side note, if your friend uses extract it is very possible there isn't all that much DMS going on to worry about. If all grain my guess is that the both of you either aren't sensitive to DMS or don't find the flavor offensive.

 

[Calder]

Boil with lid off!

- Reduces DMS (though not an issue with extract).

- Improves hop utilization.

- Improves hot break.

I have no doubt you can make decent beer without boiling, but you will make better beer if you boil.

 

[Beernik]

Always keep the lid off because you want to drive off as much DMS and its precursors off as much as possible.

There are no-boil or short-boil beers, aka "raw beer". Basically the beer is warmed hot enough for long enough to pasteurize it. From what I understand, you loose a lot of flavor stability.

You'll probably only get 15-20% utilization on your hops as well because you are basically just doing a hop stand.

DMS could certainly be a problem. You'd probably want to stay away from Pilsner malt. DME probably has very little DMS in it because of the vacuum evaporation process. I don't know about LME.

On a side note, where I live, water boils at 200F. So mine never gets hotter than that.

 

[BigFloyd]

An extract brewer (especially the pre-hopped stuff) could possibly get away with not boiling and using a lid, but it's not a good practice. If the wort does reach boiling, having the lid on will actually increase the potential for a boil-over.

Try this with mini-mash or all grain and you'll fail to boil off the DMS. The result is a canned corn flavor. Yuck.

Perhaps your friend is concerned with scorching the wort. Good flame control and the occasional stir will help prevent that.

 

[outside92129]

Keeping the lid on also contributes to DMS. All the water evaporating off carries it away, if you leave the lid on the water + DMS will condense and fall back into the brewkettle.

 

[slym2none]

Brewing on my 16K BTU gas stovetop burner & making 2-1/2 gallon max batches, I use the lid to help achieve a boil faster, but I do take the lid off afterward & for the rest of the boiling time.

I want to start BIAB'ing at some point, but I know my indoor stove wouldn't be able to handle a 3+ gallon boil. My brew-bro REALLY needs to get his act together, but from what I understand it's his SWMBO that is giving him grief over it. So... it's out of my hands. For now, I am stuck at extract with steeping grains.

I did manage to pick up another cooler that fits my backup fermenter nicely for free the other day... time for some apfelwine, black cherry I think...

 

[libirm]

Thanks to all the great information, I will be boiling with out my lid on!

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

just think how much better your friends beer would be if he boiled the wort with the lid off.

 

[alphaomega]

I agree with @Cyclman that wort movement is the main benefit of a proper boil.
I'd like to see some actual evidence of DMS if boiling with the lid on. And I do mean real evidence, like brew the same pilsner multiple times, splitting batches into boiling with the lid off (noting the total energy usage) and boiling with the lid on (with lower power, but the boil prolonged to use the same amount of energy). Ferment at the same temperature, with yeast from the same starter and then have a blind test.
As long as steam can escape (and it can, otherwise you've built a bomb), then DMS will be driven off. With the lid on, you'd need need less heat for a proper boil, possibly saving on energy and limiting the heat load on the wort. If brewing outside, you'd be less prone to have unscheduled insect additions. There are probably more benefits to boiling with the lid on and really only the 'ghost' of DMS speaking against it.
This is one of those old homebrewing 'truths' that I'd like to see put to the test.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I also would highly suggest bringing it to a full boil (you can put the lid on until it reaches this, then take it off) and then you can lower the temp to where you just see motion on the top of the pot. My only guess is your buddy either has a burner that cant boil the full volume without the lid (underpowered) or he is trying to conserve fuel.

In order to get a solid hot break you want to bring to a strong boil until the hot break drops. After that a low boil is sufficient for hop utilization. A solid hot (and cold) break will help you get proteins out of the beer and clear your beer up nicely.

 

[SatanPrinceOfDarkness]

Brewing on my 16K BTU gas stovetop burner & making 2-1/2 gallon max batches, I use the lid to help achieve a boil faster, but I do take the lid off afterward & for the rest of the boiling time.

I want to start BIAB'ing at some point, but I know my indoor stove wouldn't be able to handle a 3+ gallon boil. My brew-bro REALLY needs to get his act together, but from what I understand it's his SWMBO that is giving him grief over it. So... it's out of my hands. For now, I am stuck at extract with steeping grains.

I did manage to pick up another cooler that fits my backup fermenter nicely for free the other day... time for some apfelwine, black cherry I think...

I have a 17K BTU burner and it will boil 6 gallons of water. Combine it with the 2K in the back and I've boiled 7.5 gallons of wort (just barely).

I wonder which of our burner specifications is wrong...

 

[libirm]

I agree with @Cyclman that wort movement is the main benefit of a proper boil.
As long as steam can escape (and it can, otherwise you've built a bomb), then DMS will be driven off. With the lid on, you'd need need less heat for a proper boil, possibly saving on energy and limiting the heat load on the wort.

That sounds like a valid point to me.

There was steam escaping from my kettle.

I think my friend was going on the premise that when boiling things like food, Veggies, you lose some nutrients when boiling them, hence by keeping the temp at around 200 degrees- the Wort retains all of its flavors. He did tell me that He another Brew bud did the same exact kit. His bud the more traditional way and He the way I explained already. They booth tasted each others beers and both agree my friends tasted much better..Thus He is convinced that his method is better. I know this is just one incident and many factors to be considered.
He also brew in a Surgical Steel Kettle- that he says is better-

Considering all the above, I was just wondering if there was any other brewer that felt that way.

I think the majority feel Boiling, and by that I understand to mean a rolling boil, not a violent boil, is the way to go.

Regarding the lid thing- well it seems that keeping it on at least some of the process does not harm and my even help the water to get to where you want it.

Thanks to all!


The thread has been very educational for me, a relative new person to brewing, just over 2 years- so I am always trying to learn a little more about the craft!!

 

[DrunkleJon]

The problem is that yeast is the biggest factor in the taste of a beer. If they fermented the beers with different temperature profiles, the yeast will throw off different flavors, esters, etc. DMS is thought of as a creamed corn flavor. Yeast throws all different flavor and odored esters depending on the strain, how stressed they are, how over/under pitched, health level, etc. There are many factors that can determine why one was better than the other. Plus you factor boiloff into recipes and the boil so what does it hurt to have more boiloff.

 

[libirm]

Just found this on beer smith: under DMS
Boil your wort for 90 minutes or longer with a vigorous rolling boil
Don’t cover your boil pot – leave it open so the DMS can evaporate during the boil
FWIW

 

[govner1]

The objectives of the boil are to:
1- sterilize the wort
2- isomerize the hop oils
3- concentrate the wort
4- boil off unwanted compounds, DMS, etc

Boiling w/ the lid on & below a rolling boil obviates all of the above.

 

[ArcLight]

I want to start BIAB'ing at some point, but I know my indoor stove wouldn't be able to handle a 3+ gallon boil. My brew-bro REALLY needs to get his act together, but from what I understand it's his SWMBO that is giving him grief over it. So... it's out of my hands. For now, I am stuck at extract with steeping grains.

I started out doing stove top BIAB. My stove was a "girlie man" * stove that couldn't maintain a boil on 3-4 gallons.

So I mashed in two pots each with 3 gallons. I'd lose some liquid to the grain, but I'd do a dunk sparge in a third pot to get more wort. I'd boil on two or three burners and add in the extra wort as it evaporated.
It's a bit cumbersome but it worked fine, and i got a full 5 gallons.

For a half batch, it's easy, do a mash and dunk sparge, equalize volumes in two pots and conduct two boils. You can move the hops from one pot to the other if you don't have enough hops bags.

* = My wife recently got a "he man" stove that can handle a stove top boil.

 

[azazel1024]

As much as I have tried, I have yet to turn out a beer with DMS. Even my Berliner Wiesse which was boiled for all of 10 minutes and was 50% pilsner malt didn't even have a hint of DMS.

Yes, sure, I "worry about it", but I've also heard a lot of "modern well modified malts just don't have much DMS". 50+ batches isn't exactly every batch ever brewed, but I've never had one turn out with DMS, either with a 60 minutes or 75 minute boil, or the one time I did that 10 minute boil. Now, maybe if it was a big beer and a 10 minute boil, there would have been a bunch of DMS. I mean, a 1.035OG beer isn't going to have much of anything come across I suppose.

I do leave my lid on, but OPENED so that vapor can escape. I also keep it at a boil. The lower the temperature the slower the hop isomerization. I am too lazy to look up the chart, but I feel like at 212F the rate is something like 1.6% per minute, so you get roughly 98% utilization at 60 minutes. But down at 200F I feel like it is something like .8% per minute. Even if I am wrong in that, I DO know the isomerization drops off pretty fast as the temperature drops. So what you think might be 40IBUs might only be 30 or even 20 IBUs if you did a 60 minute 200F cook, instead of holding it at a boil for 60 minutes.

Also natural circulation of everything around at a boil, which you'd have to use a whirlpool to replicate otherwise.