Brettanomyces Lambicus starter

[brwagur]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain lacto. I'm thinking about adding lacto to my next batch with it, though. It could use a nice tart kick to accent the fruit flavors.

 

[TastyAdventure]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain lacto. I'm thinking about adding lacto to my next batch with it, though. It could use a nice tart kick to accent the fruit flavors.

That's what I'm thinking, but I don't want to add any other bugs. Could I just add some Citric acid to bump the acidity? Or would I need that store bought lactic acid?

 

[youreanimpulse]

I'd go with lactic because enough citric acid to do it would I think have negative flavor impact. But I've never tried it. Lactic acid or acid malt (steeped at the end of the mash) have both worked well for me in the past.

 

[brwagur]

Brett can also use lactic acid to produce aromatic esters such as ethyl lactate. (source)

Edit: Also from that article, lactic acid concentrations also cause increases and decreases in other aroma compounds. Basically, lactic acid can change the flavor profile of brett and does so differently for different strains.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I'd go with lactic because enough citric acid to do it would I think have negative flavor impact. But I've never tried it. Lactic acid or acid malt (steeped at the end of the mash) have both worked well for me in the past.

Lets say I go with acidulated malt. How much should I add to my grain bill of 5 lbs of 2 row for a 2 gal batch?
(If I want minimal effect on taste but still just enough to compliment the Brett flavors)

 

[youreanimpulse]

Here Oldsock did 3.7%: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html?m=1

I was going to say 5%. So in your case .2-.25 lb.

 

[TastyAdventure]

Thanks impulse!

 

[youreanimpulse]

No prob, good luck!

 

[xico]

I really don't think so. I have a 100% 5526 IPA on tap right now, repitch of a 1 gal batch, neither is sour in any way.

I could've sworn it says Brett with lacto isolated from belgium. However, I've been keeping my culture going and haven't purchased another to verify. I also cannot find a label online or find any mention of the contained microbes on the website.

Unless I can find otherwise, it is best to assume there is no lacto.


/////'


Top photo on this site is the label:

http://brewtas.blogspot.com/2012/05/brewday-100-brett-brown-ale.html


I suppose it was misread? None of my other Wyeast bretts mention maintaining lacto cultures unless they contain them (roselare, oud bruin blend, lacto 5535?)

Anyone else, can someone weigh in on this?

 

[xico]

There is lacto in a 5526 pack? I thought it was supposed to be a 100% pack of Brett??

Yes you are right. I misread the label on the pack I bought "Instructions for Brettanomyces and Lactic acid bacteria cultures" to mean both were together. It seems some labels have that and others do not.

I just bottled my all 5526 stout a couple weeks ago. Taste at racking was a dried fruit blend of esters while the aromas were shifting from cherry pie toward cherry pie-in-the-barn. I've read so many thoughts on tame all brett tastes compared to the funk of mixed fermentations. This is my first brett that isn't mixed but I'd say this is on par with funk of any the others.

Looking over the Brettanomyces Project studies, the few examined had distinctive growth traits and produced varying quantities of chemicals. I suppose it depends on the strain how "clean" or funky an all brett brew can be.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I made a pretty big starter and pitched into 2.5 gal. There was a nice krusan, it fell after 2 days. It's been 13 days now and the airlock still bubbles from time to time. Been sitting around 82 for 2 weeks... When can I turn off my heat lamp and be OK?

 

[youreanimpulse]

I say yeah. I've never fermented that warm with Brett L, but I've used it a few times at room temp without incident.

 

[xico]

I made a pretty big starter and pitched into 2.5 gal. There was a nice krusan, it fell after 2 days. It's been 13 days now and the airlock still bubbles from time to time. Been sitting around 82 for 2 weeks... When can I turn off my heat lamp and be OK?

I have never intended to brew that high before with brett but many a barrel of aging beer is subject to fluctuations throughout the seasons (only recently have some of the lambic breweries started climatizing their aging areas). I know higher temps are good for some of the fruitier esters from some of the belgian sacch. yeasts but I wonder about brett strains...

Has it formed a pellicle? Brett will often, but not always, form a powdery bubbled crust on the top to protect the culture from oxygen-loving competition. Its presence isn't an indicator of a good/bad pitch or strain but more a rough estimate of where the yeast is at and how much oxygen is in the headspace (or how much has been scrubbed for growth).




13 days is not long at all, my brett's sometimes calm themselves for weeks and then kick up intermittently. I assume the perceived inactivity is the culture adjusting its enzymes to tackle the next easiest fermentable available. I haven't gotten a 100% brett to arrive at bottle-safe gravity (1.000-1.006 is my target) in less than 8 weeks. I would recommend putting it somewhere it won't be moved as the pellicle is delicate and disappears with even a push.

How does the airlock smell after a bubble comes up? Bretts throw off my favorite aromas.

Is the brew in bucket or carboy? I don't recommending opening a bucket if it's in one. Just ride it out a couple months before tasting and testing.

How long did you let the starter go? I usually give all brett a two-step (first of 250 - 500 mL for 5-7 days) then up to 2L for a week before cold crashing and decoction (which takes longer as brett doesn't like to settle as fast as sacch). In case you are as obsessive as I am I'd recommend pouring off the clearest liquid off the top of the chilled starter. Then save the middle cloudy stuff in a sanitized jar in the fridge. Use the slurry on the bottom for the brew and the saved material is ready for the next starter in a few weeks.

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com...and-batch-culture-growth/propagation-results/

This shows the observed growth rates from an experiment.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I have never intended to brew that high before with brett but many a barrel of aging beer is subject to fluctuations throughout the seasons (only recently have some of the lambic breweries started climatizing their aging areas). I know higher temps are good for some of the fruitier esters from some of the belgian sacch. yeasts but I wonder about brett strains...

Has it formed a pellicle? Brett will often, but not always, form a powdery bubbled crust on the top to protect the culture from oxygen-loving competition. Its presence isn't an indicator of a good/bad pitch or strain but more a rough estimate of where the yeast is at and how much oxygen is in the headspace (or how much has been scrubbed for growth).




13 days is not long at all, my brett's sometimes calm themselves for weeks and then kick up intermittently. I assume the perceived inactivity is the culture adjusting its enzymes to tackle the next easiest fermentable available. I haven't gotten a 100% brett to arrive at bottle-safe gravity (1.000-1.006 is my target) in less than 8 weeks. I would recommend putting it somewhere it won't be moved as the pellicle is delicate and disappears with even a push.

How does the airlock smell after a bubble comes up? Bretts throw off my favorite aromas.

Is the brew in bucket or carboy? I don't recommending opening a bucket if it's in one. Just ride it out a couple months before tasting and testing.

How long did you let the starter go? I usually give all brett a two-step (first of 250 - 500 mL for 5-7 days) then up to 2L for a week before cold crashing and decoction (which takes longer as brett doesn't like to settle as fast as sacch). In case you are as obsessive as I am I'd recommend pouring off the clearest liquid off the top of the chilled starter. Then save the middle cloudy stuff in a sanitized jar in the fridge. Use the slurry on the bottom for the brew and the saved material is ready for the next starter in a few weeks.

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com...and-batch-culture-growth/propagation-results/

This shows the observed growth rates from an experiment.

Before I did this batch I read several places that say Brett does well at higher temps and I'm brewing this alongside a identical wort with DuPont yeast, so I put them in the same container and tried to get to the mid 80's best I could.

There is absolutely no pellicle yet...

Hard to say exactly what smells were coming from the 100% Brett L batch, because it was right there next to DuPont and then another batch with Vieille Dregs I have going... But I will say the smells in that big container they are all packed into sure are fun!

It's in a 3 gal glass carboy and I don't even intend on trying to take a gravity reading until about 8 weeks or so (also I don't have a thief... Too cheap to get one).

I did not keep good notes of my starter regimen, but I did do 3 steps. I would decant some and add fresh wort, but I never gave it as much as 2 liters, even in the last step.

I know standard ale practice is that you know you are ok to bottle after 3 days without gravity change, I know I've read it somewhere but have forgotten, what's the safe amount of time with no gravity change on 100% Bretts?

 

[xico]

Well, I've read that stressing the yeast will encourage the funk to push through which may have something to do with the suggested high temps. This is why pitching light into a secondary makes such barnyard aromas, because such few yeasts are surrounded by an environment with only hard sugars to eat.

Oooh, I have a batch of soured wort I pasteurized and brewed with a starter I built from a bottle of vielle as well! My last tasting makes me suspect it's the best beer I've made thus far. I get a lot of tropical fruit off the airlock.

It sounds like you are delving in and aren't shy to experimentation. I would recommend keeping a brew log if you haven't already. It has allowed me to repeat beers with consistency and it helps stay my impulse to taste or test beer before it could possibly be ready.

I don't think there is a rule for knowing when the brew has hit final gravity with brett. Generally, depending on how big the beer is and the abv tolerance of the strain(s) used the gravity can range. I usually don't make brews larger than 1.060 personally and find my bretts finish at 1.001-1.004.

Alcohol is less dense than water, so the above readings aren't actual gravities but perceived. Brett will seem done but once put under pressure it has been known to jump into activity again. So if your gravity is at 1.010 I would wait it out (I had to deal with 24 bottle bombs last week because I was impatient with a brew).

If the brew is where you want it and you are interested in bottling, I took a page from Oxbow Brewery and started pitching a 200ml slurry of fresh French Saison (Wyeast 3711). At such a late stage of fermentation little flavor is imparted (even if it did, I love the saison yeasty taste) but the yeast will chew down the sugars to a point of bottling in a week or so. I just finished a blackberry/cherry bruin using this method after being stuck for weeks with inactivity. Thanks to this method, my 7.5 gallons of vielle brew is just about ready for bottling now too.

 

[TastyAdventure]

My 100% Brett L beer has been sitting for 3.5 weeks and still has no pellicle... Problem?

 

[burninator]

My 100% Brett L beer has been sitting for 3.5 weeks and still has no pellicle... Problem?

My reading suggests that a pellicle is largely incidental to brett's fermentation. Some beers get them. Some don't. Elevated levels of oxygen in the fermenter's headspace are thought to necessitate them.

 

[TastyAdventure]

Ok thanks. I do have a good airlock on it...