Breaking down benzaldehyde.

[technicoloraudio]

I recently posted a topic in another thread about how a recent batch of biere de garde came out tasting strongly of almond.

Has anyone had experience with this during funked fermentations? Will souring bacteria or Brett break down this compound?




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[grathan]

I don't have that answer. It might be worth a try though.. what was the recipe and how long ago did you brew it?

 

[Oldsock]

Benzaldehyde is one of the compounds that has shown up when hops are treated with beta-glucosidase. Doesn't really help get rid of it, but might explain where it came from. What variety were you using?

 

[technicoloraudio]

I don't have that answer. It might be worth a try though.. what was the recipe and how long ago did you brew it?

I brewed two and a half weeks ago.

Recipe:
10 lbs Belg pils
8 lbs Belg 2row
8 lbs rye
4 lbs Munich
4 lbs Vienna
2 lbs carafoam
2 lbs cara20

Treated water with 5.2 at 60% normal dosage.

Mashed into preheated MLT and held steady mash tempos 153° for an hour.
Fly sparged, everything went smooth. Collected 13.75 gallons.

90 minute boil
1 oz Hallertauer FWH
1 oz " @ 90
1 oz " @ 45
1 oz " @ 15
1 oz Nelson Sauvin at FO

Post boil volume was 11.25 gallons

Whirlpooled 30 minutes
Chilled via HERMS coil in ice bath to 70°.
Racked 10.2 gallons into carboys onto 2nd generation Vermont Ale cake. Shook to aerate.
OG 1.084
Gravity was stable at 1.019 after two weeks so I racked to secondary and made a very almondy discovery.

One carboy was 6 gallon glass the other 6 gallon better bottle. Krausen looked great at 12 hours, had to switch airlock out for blowoff tube on glass carboy the following morning. Switched back to airlock after 1 week.

First week was at 68°-70°, second was at 70°-72° in 14 CF upright freezer ferm chamber.

This was my third batch on my new 20G Stout system and the most efficient yet.

I have since pitched Jester King Mad Dregs into one of the secondary fermenters.


Nzn


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[Oldsock]

2.5 weeks into a 1.084 mixed-fermentation is no time to be worried about weird flavors. Give it six months and see how it does!

 

[technicoloraudio]

I was more concerned that the flavor existed from clean fermentation and I guess I should clarify my original question:

Are wild yeasts, bacterias, and/or brettanomyces capable of breaking down benzaldehyde?

I've been sleeping with American Sour Beers under my pillow every night, but haven't woken up with answers yet. 😔🍻


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[jhay_x7]

"Whirlpooled 30 minutes
Chilled via HERMS coil in ice bath to 70°."


Are you getting a lot of oxygen pickup during these two parts of your brewing process? Is the wort falling a long distance back into your kettle? As you probably know, Benzaldehyde is a by-product of oxidation but it can also be produced by a bacterial infection. Did you rack into your carboys with a plastic hose or something that could possibly harbor bacteria?

 

[technicoloraudio]

I don't think I am getting o2 pickup as wort is not aerated at any point. Even my whirlpool barely disturbs the surface (the tangential inlet is only a few inches above the outlet).

Even if it had, it would be utilized by the yeast during fermentation. I got pretty decent attenuation so I don't think it was in excess.

I have brewed twenty batches or so of beer and never had an infected batch. They weren't always great, but I am very diligent with my sanitation practices. I am not perfect and could have overlooked something, but I strongly believe that my equipment was clean.

Would pitching into a cake have done something?

This is the first time that I have used this method, but the cake was fresh and just came off a steady but not taxing fermentation.

The Yeast Bay says that this strain does better after it's first generation and I started by pitching two vials for 10 gallons of a mosaic APA with an OG of 1.044.

Perhaps I should just let it go, but I have never been in a situation where I have an undesirable flavor and can't determine neither source nor solution and it's clearly gnawing at my brain.


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[jhay_x7]

Racking onto the yeast cake is completely fine unless the previous beer had an issue of course.

I would say at this point take the advise of Charlie P. Relax, have a homebrew! Wait a few weeks for the yeast to finish their job and clean up the fermentation.

 

[LKABrewer]

I don't think I am getting o2 pickup as wort is not aerated at any point. Even my whirlpool barely disturbs the surface (the tangential inlet is only a few inches above the outlet).

Even if it had, it would be utilized by the yeast during fermentation.

Not really. Oxygen binds with other compounds in hot wort that make it unavailable to be utilized by the yeast. This is where HSA comes from.

 

[technicoloraudio]

Yeah, but I just don't think there was aeration that would have lead to oxidation.

But, if there was, is there any way to combat the ill effects of HSA?

I know this is barely pertaining to the subject of this thread, but I'm still hanging on looking for clues to ensure this doesn't occur again.


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[dantheman13]

The easiest way to combat HSA is to not worry about it: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/475

 

[grathan]

Have you brewed with Rye before? It's got quite a character..

Pitching on a yeast cake isn't ideal, but I have never heard of problems.

Was this flavor in the Mosiac Pale ale at all?

 

[technicoloraudio]

I have brewed with rye, but not with this much. I don't think that was it though, it's not the bready spice that it usually contributes.

And the mosaic pale was without any off flavors at all.

As soon as I find some better internet I will watch that episode.


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[Yooper]

It could be the rye- I love rye beers but I find that 25% is about my max for most beers.

The other thing it could be is water chemistry- I think you used 5.2 buffer? If so, throw that away and consider using water that you know.

 

[technicoloraudio]

I did use 5.2, but I use it half to 2/3 the prescribed dosage and mostly because I think that it's saltiness does help bring other flavors out that I like, I didn't realize it was purposeless.

Lately I have been splitting each of my ten gallon batches and funking or souring half and fermenting the other half clean.

I hope that I will learn something about how wild yeasts/bacteria/Brett ferment out or breakdown undesirable flavors that maybe other folks can find useful. I searched the internet high and low for info on benzaldehyde and other than finding information on oxidation and making me reassess my methods that I had recently become more confident in, I think that I have a lot to gain from this experience. Even if it is just 5.2 being a waste of time and money. 🍺




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[mnick12]

Are you sure it is benzaldehyde?

If it is actually benzaldehyde you may not have much to worry about. I am not a biologist but I am a chemist, and from a chemistry point of view benzaldehyde is quite a reactive molecule. It is easily oxidized by air to benzoic acid, and similarly sensitive to reduction. Reduction would yield benzyl alcohol which has a much milder flavor. I think any active organism could reduce it to benzyl alcohol. Brett might be able to do it long term, but I do not know. Alternatively maybe pitching an active starter of some yeast could clean it up.

If it were me I would just leave it an wait.

 

[technicoloraudio]

@mnick12, thanks. This is the info I was hoping for.

"brett it and forget it."


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[youreanimpulse]

Not the same off-flavor, but I pitched Brett B (and some dregs) into a saison that got burnt in the keggle from bad technique direct heating the mash with BIAB (done with that experiment for a while) and Brett seems to be cleaning it up, or it's falling out or something. I thought I had to toss it, tasted like BBQ sauce for like a month, super smokey. Crossed fingers, but it's working!