Bottle lager, or bulk lager? Plus sequence advice needed.

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm making my first lager, and it is fermenting presently at 52 degrees F., using highly floculating Saflager W-34/70 yeast. Should I bottle lager or bulk lager it? And at what temperature range, and for how long?

Also, what are the general procedures for a diacetyl rest and cold crashing, and what is the general sequence (step by step) of the events that I should follow from here forward.

I believe the sequence should go as follows. Please correct or confirm this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Primary fermenter for ~7 days
Secondary fermenter for ~7 days
Heat to 65 degrees for 2 days (diacetyl rest)
Cold crash to about 35 degrees
Bottle
Bottle carbonate at 65 degrees for 2-3 weeks
Lager for 3-4 weeks at about 32 degrees
Enjoy

 

[dstockwell]

Don't need to secondary.. Since I don't have cold crash ability I let the temp rise to 68 for D rest, bottled, lager in bottle.

 

[StephanHaus]

Your plan looks pretty much what i'd say to do! However, someone else might be able to back this up, but i believe that bulk lagering is usually preferred. So if it were me, i'd let it bulk lager at 32 degrees, then bottle carbonate for 2-3 weeks. That would be how i do it.

 

[LLBeanJ]

The plan looks pretty good, but I'd do the d-rest as soon as the primary fermentation begins to clear, prior to transfer to secondary. Lagering in the bottle is fine.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Would you return it to 52 degrees when in the secondary?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Would you return it to 52 degrees when in the secondary?

No, the only reason to move it to secondary would be to help clear it before bottling and for that I'd be holding it at just above freezing. And, to be honest, if you're going to bottle after a week of cold crashing, I'd just leave it in primary and bottle it from there. There's really no need to transfer to secondary at all unless you were going to bulk lager it for several weeks.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No, the only reason to move it to secondary would be to help clear it before bottling and for that I'd be holding it at just above freezing. And, to be honest, if you're going to bottle after a week of cold crashing, I'd just leave it in primary and bottle it from there. There's really no need to transfer to secondary at all unless you were going to bulk lager it for several weeks.

Thank you! So fermentation, the diacetyl rest, cold crashing, and bottling all take place (in that sequence) in the primary.

I thought the reason for moving to a secondary was to remove the beer from a pile of yuckies that could potentially contribute off flavors if it remains sitting on top of them for too long. Is this not the case?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Thank you! So fermentation, the diacetyl rest, cold crashing, and bottling all take place (in that sequence) in the primary.

I thought the reason for moving to a secondary was to remove the beer from a pile of yuckies that could potentially contribute off flavors if it remains sitting on top of them for too long. Is this not the case?

Yes, all in primary.

Yes, off flavors could happen from prolonged exposure to the yeast cake, but not that quickly. If you were going to do a true bulk lager, then yes, you'd want to move the beer to a clearing vessel (carboy or keg, usually) and let time and temperature do its thing. But, since you're going to lager in the bottle following a short (1-2 weeks) cold crash, leaving the beer on the yeast for the duration of the cold crash won't be an issue. The transfer to secondary would likely do more harm than good, really.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Again I must thank you! Great advice that simplifies things quite a bit.

 

[Steveruch]

I'm making my first lager, and it is fermenting presently at 52 degrees F., using highly floculating Saflager W-34/70 yeast. Should I bottle lager or bulk lager it? And at what temperature range, and for how long?

Also, what are the general procedures for a diacetyl rest and cold crashing, and what is the general sequence (step by step) of the events that I should follow from here forward.

I believe the sequence should go as follows. Please correct or confirm this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Primary fermenter for ~7 days
Secondary fermenter for ~7 days
Heat to 65 degrees for 2 days (diacetyl rest)
Cold crash to about 35 degrees
Bottle
Bottle carbonate at 65 degrees for 2-3 weeks
Lager for 3-4 weeks at about 32 degrees
Enjoy

7 days in primary is too short. Leave it there 21 days and rack to bottling bucket or lagering vessel.
I've used S-34/70 quite a bit and have never needed to do a D-rest.
I see no reason to cold crash before bottling.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

7 days in primary is too short. Leave it there 21 days and rack to bottling bucket or lagering vessel.
I've used S-34/70 quite a bit and have never needed to do a D-rest.
I see no reason to cold crash before bottling.

Interesting advice! The simplest solution so far.

 

[Steveruch]

Interesting advice! The simplest solution so far.

This process is what I normally use on my lagers. If we don't lose power again I'll be bottling a vienna lager this morning that I brewed 7 weeks ago that ended up in primary for 28 days because of my having a cold at the 21 day mark.

 

[LLBeanJ]

This evening I'll be kegging a 1.065 --> 1.015 Scottish lager brewed with WY2124. Timeline was as follows:

12/23 - Brewed
12/28 - D-rest @ basement ambient (~65°F) (probably not needed, but did it anyway - didn't bother to taste)
1/1 - FG sample & begin cold crash @ 34°F
1/3 - Added gelatin to fermenter
1/10 - Taste & clarity sample (sample was crystal clear)
1/11 - Transfer to keg (19 days post-brewing)
Beer will be carbed and drinkable in two days but will lager for a couple months in spare fridge until a tap opens up, taking occasional draws with a picnic tap. If I had a free tap now, it would go right on it for immediate serving and lager in place while on tap.

All above prior to kegging was done in primary. This timeline is pretty typical for my lagers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The plan looks pretty good, but I'd do the d-rest as soon as the primary fermentation begins to clear, prior to transfer to secondary. Lagering in the bottle is fine.

Fermentation peaked at 32 bubbles per minute, and currently It's down to 11 bubbles/min and falling. When should I move the fermenter to my 67 degree basement for the 2-3 days of diacetyl rest?

I'm currently 4.5 days into fermentation.

 

[madscientist451]

Fermentation peaked at 32 bubbles per minute, and currently It's down to 11 bubbles/min and falling. When should I move the fermenter to my 67 degree basement for the 2-3 days of diacetyl rest?

I'm currently 4.5 days into fermentation.

When to change the fermenting temperature is usually determined by % of fermentation. Is it 50% done? or is it only 25%?
You need to pull a sample and take a gravity reading to be sure.
If you haven't seen this yet, you might want to read through it:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/la...al-vs-quick-fermentation-exbeeriment-results/

 

[McKnuckle]

^see above

If you have to move the fermenter abruptly to a warm temp rather than drop the temp gradually, I'd wait a little bit longer than 5 days. Everyone does this differently, depending on temp control options and patience. My current lager (Helles) has followed this schedule:

Day 0, pitched @ 52
Days 1-5, fermented at 48-49
Days 5-13, bumped temp gradually from 49-61 (1 or 2 deg increments)
[Cap was dropping at this point]
Days 14-16, dropped temp 5 deg at a time about every 12 hrs to reach 35
Days 17-21 sitting at 35
On Day 21 I will keg it and move it to the serving space

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

When to change the fermenting temperature is usually determined by % of fermentation. Is it 50% done? or is it only 25%?
You need to pull a sample and take a gravity reading to be sure.
If you haven't seen this yet, you might want to read through it:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/la...al-vs-quick-fermentation-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks! If it is 50% done or more is that the time to raise the temperature for the D-rest phase?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Thanks! If it is 50% done or more is that the time to raise the temperature for the D-rest phase?

Yes, if following Brulosopher's quick lager method, you want to be at least 50% of the way to FG when you begin raising the temp. Usually for me, the krausen is beginning to clear around day 4 or 5 with a typical 1.050-1.060 lager, so you should be pretty close to FG by now, assuming you oxygenated the wort and used a healthy and adequate sized yeast pitch.

 

[madscientist451]

The common wisdom seems to be that once 50% of fermentation is completed, the risk of producing off flavors at higher temperatures is reduced.
I re-read the Brulosophy experiment method, and for the quick fermentation, he didn't take any readings, he just started raising the temperature gradually after 5 days, hitting 68 at day 7. In 12 days it was finished, he let it sit for 3 more days and considered it done.
It was kegged after 3 weeks and served a week after that.
He didn't report any off flavors, so I guess it worked fine doing it with out taking any readings. I'm pretty lazy and don't really want to pull samples if I don't have to.
You mentioned bottling the beer and letting it condition at 65F. This might be a little low for bottle conditioning in two weeks, you'll have to see what happens. If you have room to keep your carbed up bottles cold when they are ready, you may see an improvement after they've been in the cold for a while. I like to cold condition my bottled lagers for a month or more.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thank you LLBeanJ and madscientist451!

I'll move the fermenter from my 52 degree heated/attached garage to my 67 degree basement tomorrow morning at about 9:30 AM, which will mark 5-1/2 days in the fermenter, and 5 days post first seeing bubbles in the airlock, and at which time I'm projecting (based upon my having charted this, and seeing the trend) that bubbling will have diminished to about 4 bubbles per minute.

From there I plan to turn the heat off in the garage, and in 3 days move the fermenter back to the garage for 1 week of cold crashing. Then bottle and bottle-lager for 3 weeks. I have abandoned moving it into a secondary fermenter based upon advice that it isn't really necessary.

If 67 degrees is the highest temperature it will have seen during the fermentation process, is this the temperature that I plug into the online bottle priming calculator to determine the amount of sugar needed to add to achieve a nominal 2.3 volumes of CO2?

 

[McKnuckle]

Then bottle and bottle-lager for 3 weeks.

Just making sure you know... Prime in bottles at warm temps first, then lager in the bottle at cold temps.

And yes, your assumption about the temp to input for priming calculations is correct - 67ºF if that was the warmest it saw during fermentation.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, I forgot about 2-3 weeks at warm temps to assure carbonation before lagering.

Thanks for the reminder McKnuckle!

 

[McKnuckle]

Lager does seem to have a lot of steps... I need to plan it out every time, too, since I brew far more ales. I usually set up a log with planned movements/adjustments when I ferment a lager, and use it as a guideline.

I don't even bother with a gravity check until FG at 3 weeks, though. After a week, it's invariably ready for a rise to the 60s, and a week later, to drop into the 30s. And then it gets racked to a keg after 3 weeks total. That's also when one would bottle it, warm it up, carb it, and then refrigerate it for the long haul.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I recently retired and I'm just now getting back into the art of brewing after a nearly 20 year hiatus. I chose a lager for my first batch in at least 19 years. I forgot a lot in that time span, and it's great to have forums like this one. The technology of today makes me feel like everything I still remember from 20 years ago has been supplanted with different information and advice/procedures, along with affordable tools that were simply not readily available (economically at least) back then. The biggest changes I've seen seem to have come to water, water treatment, and pH control. All of the thinking from 20 years ago in those areas has been rendered pretty much useless as well as incorrect with today's knowledge and insights.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Speaking of bottle priming, does 2.00 grams of granulated table sugar per 12 ounce bottle sound right for 2.2 to 2.3 volumes of CO2?

I have a nice digital scale that is accurate to 0.01 gram, and if I'm going to attempt bottling directly from the primary (instead of racking to a bottling bucket), I will need to individually prime each bottle.

Is it possible to successfully bottle directly from the primary using an auto-syphon and a spring loaded valve type bottle filler, or will I stir up too much sediment in the process?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Speaking of bottle priming, does 2.00 grams of granulated table sugar per 12 ounce bottle sound right for 2.2 to 2.3 volumes of CO2?

I have a nice digital scale that is accurate to 0.01 gram, and if I'm going to attempt bottling directly from the primary (instead of racking to a bottling bucket), I will need to individually prime each bottle.

Is it possible to successfully bottle directly from the primary using an auto-syphon and a spring loaded valve type bottle filler, or will I stir up too much sediment in the process?

I would just use your bottling bucket and pre-prime the batch at once. I'm sure it's possible to bottle direct from the fermenter, but I think it would cause more trouble than it saves. Kegging from primary is one thing and is very simple, but bottling, I just wouldn't do it.

 

[McKnuckle]

I just tried a bottling wand with my auto-siphon using water. I have always wanted to do that! Simple answer - PITA. You have to open the bottom valve on the wand to start the siphon, which basically requires 3 hands. And it wastes a bit of beer and can be a mess. But once the siphon and wand are filled, it does work.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So all I need is an extra set of hands. My wife will need to become part of this.