Bottle Carbing Idea (Final Data Review)

[RukusDM]

Rukus, your PM box must be full.

Ferm temp low 60's, no exact number. Campden was only added 24 hours prior because it was raw and for all I know this lady accidentally ground up one of the stray cats in the cider press. Bottle conditioned is 72, almost exactly, kitchen counter temp.

Thought #1:

I didn't use a pressure gauge. I went by bubbles and foam in the glass when poured. 12 hours, "carbonated". It occurred to me just now, there is already alot of CO2 dissolved in the cider from fermentation... I just degassed another batch by gently swirling the carboy and this occurred to me. Because there was so much CO2 already in the liquid, a long wait for the bottle to carb wasn't necessary.



Thought #2:

It went from 1.056 to 1.020 in about 6 days. That equals about 6 gravity points a day, or 3 gravity points every 12 hours. My understanding, I've read somewhere, it's less than 1 gravity point that is necessary to carbonate a beer. Doing a quick calculation, a standard 5 oz of priming sugar in a 5 gallon batch of beer only bumps the gravity by 0.001.

Regarding Thought #1....Both Pimento, and myself saw a 5 Psi increase within a few hours of filling our Pressure Test bottles. I think this gives your idea allot of merit. The yeast certainly couldn't have done that as they were slightly dormant at the time of bottling. The only other explenation would be degassing of the cider filling the head space. Nice

Do you agree with this postulation?

 

[Fletch78]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

 

[selfdestructed]

Mine carbed in less than 12 hours.

I didn't take a gravity reading, I just let it ferment until it tasted to dry.

Once it was as dry as I could take it, I racked it.

I then back sweetened it with 2 cups of splenda and primed it with a half gallon more cider, but with preservatives.

In 12 hours, I had a LOT of carbination, as in too much.

I reracked the bottles, resteralized, rebottled, and in 10 more hours, I tested again.

Perfrct, bottle pasterized at 160, once the water got down to 120, I took bottles out, got the water back up to 160, put them back until it got back to 120, then let them cool over night.

Today....delicious cider.

 

[RukusDM]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

It might then make sense to degas the liquid by a vigorous stirring when adding the priming sugar then. This would hopefully reset everything to 0 Volumes of gas in the liquid and then only relying on what the yeast produce?

 

[Fletch78]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

 

[RukusDM]

Mine carbed in less than 12 hours.

I didn't take a gravity reading, I just let it ferment until it tasted to dry.

Once it was as dry as I could take it, I racked it.

I then back sweetened it with 2 cups of splenda and primed it with a half gallon more cider, but with preservatives.

In 12 hours, I had a LOT of carbination, as in too much.

I reracked the bottles, resteralized, rebottled, and in 10 more hours, I tested again.

Perfrct, bottle pasterized at 160, once the water got down to 120, I took bottles out, got the water back up to 160, put them back until it got back to 120, then let them cool over night.

Today....delicious cider.

Well it is possible it is due to what Fletch suggests. Already dissolved Co2 prior to bottling. Having a bottle carb up in 12 hours would seem to require a full on ferment.

There is a difference between fully carbed and fully pressurized though. Early on in a beer bottle conditioning, you can get gushers when opening a test bottle at room temperature. The actual beer can have very little desolved co2 in it even though producing a gusher would make you think its over carbed. Co2 will desolve better in a cold liquid than in a warm one.

We condition at room temperature to allow the yeast to stay awake at their normal fermenting temperature. They produce CO2 for us to create bottle pressure. When we then put the bottles in the refrigerator, the co2 will then be dissolved in the liquid. You will also note that if you have a well carbed bottle and place into the refrigerator, it will take about over 24 hours to get the co2 in the liquid. In fact many suggest to leave bottles to condition cold after carbed and pasteurized to fully co2 condition. If you just chill it down, and you open one, you'll still run the risk of a gusher as the CO2 is not dissolved fully yet.

Even if you have a gusher, letting it finish conditioning and then testing cold several weeks later will produce different results.

 

[RukusDM]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

The variables are indeed more than one might expect, however back to the original idea would solve this. Pressure monitoring puts you in a position to visually see the rate of gas production.

Once the pressure has met your requirements, the process then continues with the normal pasteurization, albet with lower temperatures.

As I had mentioned, one can build their own safety margin by simply building one of these bottles. Pop bottles are basically free, and the gauge is about 8 or 9 bucks.

People are not going to stop pasteurizing. They want to make sweet carbonated cider. I don't blame them, I like it too

We just need to provide a method that reduces the risk below what is done today. With your, mine, Pimentos ideas and rough procedures, I think we can reduce the risk. I was hoping some of the other experienced cider makers would have posted to offer their advice or suggestions.

I think we are begining to see the complexitys, but still with safe achievable results.

 

[RukusDM]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

I've read allot about concerns of oxidization. I don't have a ton of experience to draw on, however I don't see how one might oxidize their cider if we are driving out CO2 in a major way like fermentation does.

Some people ferment with only a towel over the top with no cover and no airlock.

I'm not suggesting its not a real concern, I'm just wondering how that would happen with a ton of co2 being released, and it is heavier than air.

So dam much to understand

 

[RukusDM]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

One other thought, you mentioned that you had cold crashed the cider. If it had the dissolved co2 already in it Cold, you then placed the bottle in room temperature and the gas began coming out of the liquid. If you opened one warm, you may think the carb is high when it really has been being released into the head space.

Kinda like putting a pop bottle in the back seat of your car on a hot day. A extreme example, but along the same lines.

This may not be correct, but would seem to fit what we have observed and recorded.

I have been monitoring my test bottle after the pasteurization. As I had mentioned that it took about 3 hours to come down from the 50psi or so estimated, down to 30 psi. It then took a total of 12 hours to return to my starting pressure of 22 psi. I have been monitoring it the last few days and the pressure has continued to drop. It is now down to 18psi, 4 psi lower than what I started with.

I think that is telling me that the co2 pressure that built up in the head space is dissolving into the liquid. Its not leaking it as far as i can tell by putting in a water batch to check for bubbles.

 

[pimento]

One other thought, you mentioned that you had cold crashed the cider. If it had the dissolved co2 already in it Cold, you then placed the bottle in room temperature and the gas began coming out of the liquid. If you opened one warm, you may think the carb is high when it really has been being released into the head space.

Kinda like putting a pop bottle in the back seat of your car on a hot day. A extreme example, but along the same lines.

This may not be correct, but would seem to fit what we have observed and recorded.

I have been monitoring my test bottle after the pasteurization. As I had mentioned that it took about 3 hours to come down from the 50psi or so estimated, down to 30 psi. It then took a total of 12 hours to return to my starting pressure of 22 psi. I have been monitoring it the last few days and the pressure has continued to drop. It is now down to 18psi, 4 psi lower than what I started with.

I think that is telling me that the co2 pressure that built up in the head space is dissolving into the liquid. Its not leaking it as far as i can tell by putting in a water batch to check for bubbles.

You're correct, when it's heated the co2 comes out of solution and crowds into the headspace causing the pressure to rise. As it cools it slowly returns to equilibrium dissolving into the liquid. The co2 in solution doesn't cause as much pressure as it does out of solution.

The co2 left over from fermentation before adding priming sugar will be a bit less than 1 volume at room temp, there's a small chart showing how much here : http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/21-carbonation/1276-priming-with-sugar.

I'd guess that some of that co2 is lost through agitation when mixing in the priming sugar, syphoning into your bottling bucket and then filling your bottles though. So you may end up with 3/4 to 1/2 of that amount.

That amount is compensated for by temperature in most bottle priming calculators.

 

[pimento]

I've read allot about concerns of oxidization. I don't have a ton of experience to draw on, however I don't see how one might oxidize their cider if we are driving out CO2 in a major way like fermentation does.

Some people ferment with only a towel over the top with no cover and no airlock.

I'm not suggesting its not a real concern, I'm just wondering how that would happen with a ton of co2 being released, and it is heavier than air.

So dam much to understand

A full degass is generally done for wines. As long as you don't go overboard, oxidation isn't a problem since as you said, the co2 coming out is heavier than air and will push any oxygen out of the bottle/bucket leaving a nice blanket of co2 over the wine.

You do have to be more careful after degassing though, since no more co2 will be produced.

 

[selfdestructed]

Well it is possible it is due to what Fletch suggests. Already dissolved Co2 prior to bottling. Having a bottle carb up in 12 hours would seem to require a full on ferment.

There is a difference between fully carbed and fully pressurized though. Early on in a beer bottle conditioning, you can get gushers when opening a test bottle at room temperature. The actual beer can have very little desolved co2 in it even though producing a gusher would make you think its over carbed. Co2 will desolve better in a cold liquid than in a warm one.

We condition at room temperature to allow the yeast to stay awake at their normal fermenting temperature. They produce CO2 for us to create bottle pressure. When we then put the bottles in the refrigerator, the co2 will then be dissolved in the liquid. You will also note that if you have a well carbed bottle and place into the refrigerator, it will take about over 24 hours to get the co2 in the liquid. In fact many suggest to leave bottles to condition cold after carbed and pasteurized to fully co2 condition. If you just chill it down, and you open one, you'll still run the risk of a gusher as the CO2 is not dissolved fully yet.

Even if you have a gusher, letting it finish conditioning and then testing cold several weeks later will produce different results.

Are you saying to just cold crash after a few days, ignore the gusher that first day, and that in a couple days the co2 should be in the liquid?

They aren't as carbonated as I would like. I wish they where like the gushers I had before, just with out the gush.

 

[RukusDM]

Are you saying to just cold crash after a few days, ignore the gusher that first day, and that in a couple days the co2 should be in the liquid?

They aren't as carbonated as I would like. I wish they where like the gushers I had before, just with out the gush.

Well, I'm not sure at this time. I still don't have my arms around the potential of different SG's and strains of yeast yet.

However, from my limited experience and testing, pressures can climb quite high when pasteurizing. The issue with just popping a top and observing carbonation initialy, isn't a good measure. Even though you have killed the yeast, the pressure still can be quite high after Pasteurization.

I mentioned a few posts up that once I has pasteurized, the pressure did not drop back to what I started with for 12 hours. I have continued to monitor pressure and it is now around 18 psi which is 4 psi lower than I started with. I think this indicates that Co2 is still being desolved. This is still at room temperature of aroun 65 degrees.

Co2 will continue to desolve into the liquid until it equilizes with the temperature and cant desolve any more for that temperature. That is why your carbing results will differ. When I put bottles in the fridge, I don't review the carbing for at least 24 to 48 hours to allow the co2 to continue to desolve into the cider.

Cold liquids will desolve more than room temperature. Lastnight I put my pressure bottle in the fridge to chill it down for a full day or so and measure what the Psi drops to when cold. I will recorde the pressure drop and chart that as well. I will wait till the pressure does not drop any more. That would be the point when the cider is as carbed as it is going to get for the current temperature. At that time, I will open it and pour. I will video the pour and pass it on if I can.

 

[pimento]

In thinking about it, I'm not sure the residual co2 from fermentation really impacts the experiment, since all we are looking for is a safe pressure to pasteurize at.

All the residual co2 does is help us get to that number quicker.

In fact, that initial burst of pressure we both saw, 5psi within a few hours is likely caused by the residual co2 redistributing itself.

In your fermentation vessel a layer of co2 builds up on top and reaches equilibrium with the co2 inside the cider. When we transfer it to the bottle, that layer is removed, so the co2 comes out of solution to fill that space and reach a new equilibrium depending on temp and pressure.

 

[RukusDM]

In thinking about it, I'm not sure the residual co2 from fermentation really impacts the experiment, since all we are looking for is a safe pressure to pasteurize at.

All the residual co2 does is help us get to that number quicker.

In fact, that initial burst of pressure we both saw, 5psi within a few hours is likely caused by the residual co2 redistributing itself.

In your fermentation vessel a layer of co2 builds up on top and reaches equilibrium with the co2 inside the cider. When we transfer it to the bottle, that layer is removed, so the co2 comes out of solution to fill that space and reach a new equilibrium depending on temp and pressure.

I agree the pressure is what we want in the end. The question though is if folks do not use a gauge (as I will every time now) people may think that a week or carbonation with subjective tests are sufficent. They may have one burst while carbonating, or Pasteurizing if the pressure is not known.

Then they may have a issue as Fletch suggests. From what I have gathered, that is his main concern.

In any event, I will not be carbing and pasteurizing without a gauge bottle. In fact, I'm going to make 2 or 3 more. I will also be using lower pasteurizing temperatures which we have shown to additionaly increase the safety of this.

I know you are going to continue to refine, as well as myself. You are closer to getting data for a second trial, I have to startup several ciders yet to get something to test.

 

[pimento]

Something just occurred to me while looking back at the first thread, when I filled my gauged bottle I squeezed it to get all the air out before capping, just like i do when using them to test for carbonation.

From your picture I can't tell if you did the same.

That might also have contributed to differences in carbonation pressure.

 

[RukusDM]

Something just occurred to me while looking back at the first thread, when I filled my gauged bottle I squeezed it to get all the air out before capping, just like i do when using them to test for carbonation.

From your picture I can't tell if you did the same.

That might also have contributed to differences in carbonation pressure.

I did not. That accounts for some level of offset between us.

 

[pimento]

Good, one variable down.

From now on I won't squeeze the air out and I'm going to mark my bottle so I always get the same headspace.

 

[RukusDM]

Well I checked the bottle and it didn't change much from this morning so I did a quick video of the pour. Please forgive the video quality, I did this with a camera and I'm not much of a video editor.

The pressure when I put it into the refrigerator was 22 Psi, and at the pour test it was 8.5 psi. about 24 hours later. Its possible more gas would have dissolved, but this was close enough for my test. No Gusher, that was good.

I had to stop the video to unscrew the cap then pour. Not heavily carbed, but close to what I was looking for. If I had been able to wait till I got the 25 to 27 Psi, It would have been a bit better. I may test with a 30psi that would be closer to 3 volumes of Co2.

Overall...not bad for my first carb and pasteurization.

The task will be to see if it is reproducible. I would have done this test with a glass bottle, but we drank all 3 Gallons in the past week....that recipe is simple and defiantly a keeper.

Click on image to start vid -



Edit: Another thing I just noticed watching this test was that the liquid level was lower than when I started the Carbonation. You can see that from one of my posts in the original post. I guess that means that the bottle volume expanded while heating for Pasteurization. Total volume of the bottle is now bigger....more head space so the carb level is lower than what would have been in a glass bottle.

 

[RukusDM]

I found a small stopper with a hole in that will fit into the mouth of a beer bottle from the Brewing Shop.

I was thinking of adapting the gauge stem to a short 1" long 1/8" NPT nipple and put the nipple into the stopper hole and try a pressure test. This would be easyier to make a test bottle as you wouldn't have to Tap and Drill the cap. Not everyone has access to Pipe taps.

The pounds force on the stopper wouldn't be to high as the circular area of the stopper is small. It might make sense to use a champagne cork cage when I test it.

I'll post if it looks like it will work.

 

[bpm2000]

Love the work everyone. Hope it gets to a point where we can safely reproduce this at home.

 

[RukusDM]

Love the work everyone. Hope it gets to a point where we can safely reproduce this at home.

Many people use the current methods outlined by Pappers in the Pasteurization thread without problems. This isn't to replace Pappers method. We are attempting to use that method with a additional level of safety along with being reproducible every time. Some people I've chatted with haven't had a issue.

 

[Veinman]

Wow great work guys. When I made by first batch I somehow missed the pasteurization thread all together and it made it still, it was good but this will make it that much better.

 

[RukusDM]

I'm waiting for a week or two before I can begin any other tests. I don't have anything to bottle carb or pasteurize at this time.

I have 5 Gallons of plain cider with 1.054 SG and 1 lb of light DME. Also 3.5 gallons of Cider with 2 lbs of Honey SG 1.060 (cyser ?). Also 5 Liters of plain cider at SG 1.050.

Shortly I should be able to start several tests with a large range of ciders.

Pimento is probably in a better position to start another series of tests. He has a batch or two going ahead of me.

Hopefully we will gather some more good data.

 

[RukusDM]

To be clear, are you adding priming sugar to a dry, cold crashed, racked cider?

Because I recently cold crashed a fermenting cider at 1.020 ... bottled... and tested 12 hours later and had adequate carbonation. If noobs read this, and think it will take two weeks for their sweet cider to carbonate in the bottle before pasteurizing, someone is going to die. Can you give more info, preferably edited into your OP, about the cider going into your experiment?

Fletch, I'm not ready to bottle yet, however I did a test attempting to cause the worst case situation. I did cold crash this before the test.

It had gone past the 1.020 that you had (work issues kept me away), but I back sweetened it to 1.020 and put it in the test bottle. I ended up with about 25 psi in 30 hours. I then let the pressure off, and re-installed the gauge and it pressured up to about 30 psi in 16 hours or so. I then released the pressure again and repeated. Same results.

This of course is a worst case causing a fairly strong ferment in the bottle. I want to repeat this by back sweetening and get it fermenting again and then cold crash once the ferment starts up again and see what data that provides.

This is the best I can do with this batch. This would still support using a pressure bottle to solve the issue.

I'll post back when I repeat the experiment and also when I bottle my cysers.

 

[TM85]

Edit: Another thing I just noticed watching this test was that the liquid level was lower than when I started the Carbonation. You can see that from one of my posts in the original post. I guess that means that the bottle volume expanded while heating for Pasteurization. Total volume of the bottle is now bigger....more head space so the carb level is lower than what would have been in a glass bottle.[/QUOTE]

Great discussion guys, thanks for all your work.

I was doing a little research on the internet on the pressure characteristics of plastic bottles, and if this would be a useable container for cider, especially if I were to pasteurize the bottles using the technique RukusDM is using in this post (that's the only source of bottles I have right now, but hope to get glass bottles in the future).

Some of the information I found seems to indicate that they can handle the pressures that you have mentioned in this post. Some say the pressure of a 2 litter pop bottle will handle around a max pressure of 60-70psi., While others indicate they quite regularly fill them up to 120psi. (I don't know the accuracy of this info though).

Another concern that I saw was that under pressure, plastic bottles will stretch, increasing their volume. If true, I would think that a person wouldn't want to use plastic bottles over and over, as this would greatly affect the bottles ability to withstand pressures. Someone else mentioned that the kind of plastic used in pop bottles does allow oxygen absorption through the plastic. This may be another concern, if true, for long term storage of cider in plastic bottles. I will try to do further research to verify this info.

This may be information that is widely known, I don't know as I am new to this hobby/obsession. If someone out there knows more on this, I would love to here what they know.

I am currently just about ready to bottle my first batch of cider. I think I will go ahead and let this batch go almost dry, then back sweeten for the amount of carbonation I want, then bottle. The next batch I will shoot for something in line with what RukusDM is looking for in this thread.

Thanks Guys!

 

[RukusDM]

Great discussion guys, thanks for all your work.

I was doing a little research on the internet on the pressure characteristics of plastic bottles, and if this would be a useable container for cider, especially if I were to pasteurize the bottles using the technique RukusDM is using in this post (that's the only source of bottles I have right now, but hope to get glass bottles in the future).

Some of the information I found seems to indicate that they can handle the pressures that you have mentioned in this post. Some say the pressure of a 2 litter pop bottle will handle around a max pressure of 60-70psi., While others indicate they quite regularly fill them up to 120psi. (I don't know the accuracy of this info though).

Another concern that I saw was that under pressure, plastic bottles will stretch, increasing their volume. If true, I would think that a person wouldn't want to use plastic bottles over and over, as this would greatly affect the bottles ability to withstand pressures. Someone else mentioned that the kind of plastic used in pop bottles does allow oxygen absorption through the plastic. This may be another concern, if true, for long term storage of cider in plastic bottles. I will try to do further research to verify this info.

This may be information that is widely known, I don't know as I am new to this hobby/obsession. If someone out there knows more on this, I would love to here what they know.

I am currently just about ready to bottle my first batch of cider. I think I will go ahead and let this batch go almost dry, then back sweeten for the amount of carbonation I want, then bottle. The next batch I will shoot for something in line with what RukusDM is looking for in this thread.

Thanks Guys!

The bottles definatly do distort in shape slightly. The volume dropped about a half oz or so when the pasteurization was done. That would be at the max pressure and high temp which makes sense that it might stretch in shape.

At that point you are really already done with the test bottle as the yeast are dead. The gauge and cap can be re-used (as I've used it several times now) you just get a new pop bottle for your next batch. I'll be bottling my batches in glass, however 1 plastic test gauge bottle for the batch.

I have several test batches done. I will be doing a graf and a cyser in the next few days. I haven't built my other gauge bottles yet. That will make 3 for me total.

I'll never bottle without one. In fact I'm using one just to see what the pressures do with normal priming in my Lager Beer I've just bottled. The pressure is climbing and is up to about 10 psi. We'll see where it ends up using the normal bottle carbing proceedure.

 

[pimento]

On friday I bottled my latest cider, it's just a simple 6 gallons of fresh cider, 2 lbs of turbinado sugar and a pack of ec-1118, backsweetened with 6 cans of AJ concentrate.

I don't have all the data yet, but I can see this is going to be a short test because of the ec-1118.

I bottled friday and the pressure had settled at 5psi within a few hours, which seems to be the norm.

24 hrs later, the pressure was already up to 11 psi and 12 hrs after that it's at 14, so it seems to be gaining about 6 psi a day.

At this rate I'll be pasteurizing late monday or early tuesday, I'll post my final results after it's all done.

 

[oldmate]

Sorry to necro here, but this is a really great thread and a wonderful source of information to all those thinking of pasteurising, priming or force carbing their home brew. I think a link should be provided in the OP of Pappers thread.

 

[Daddo07]

As I was pasteurizing my first bottle today it occurred to me what might be a good way to do batches safely and with excellent temperature results. Could you not place all your bottles in an insulated chest cooler and add the hot water to that? I would think there would be several advantages:

- You could process quite a few bottles at once, certainly more than would fit in most pots
- Heat retention would be much better than in a pot, leading to higher average temps and shorter overall soak times
- With the lid closed you would have excellent containment if a bottle should burst

I've developed two recipes, one quite sweet and one exceptionally dry. My goal is to combine those flavors in one bottle, as well as letting the residual yeast remove some sweetness while carbing. I can also skip back-sweetening with this method.

Any thoughts?