Boiling hot wort in glass carboy...

[mhermetz]

- Extra work
- Dangerous.... (I don't care if you say it isn't if taken the right steps. Sooner or later you will make a mistake and be severly injured)
- Why?? seriously? why....

filling under "first horrible idea of 2010"

 

[broadbill]

In your efforts to be a contrarian, I think you're missing the point. The purpose of this procedure isn't to turn my carboy into a surgical tool. I am merely preserving the "sterility" of my wort by not using wort chillers and soaks and baths and other methods that could create an infected batch...

What can I say, I don't like to eat fillet Mignon on a paper plate.

PS: The residual water in the carboy that turns to steam is more than what I need to kill what might be in my carboy.

Wait, wasn't one of your "pros" for this method that you are actually sterilizing the carboy with hot wort instead of just sanitizing? What is actually left in the "pro" column for this method then? As far as I can tell, it takes more time, is potentially hazardous, and doesn't really making things better or more efficient.

 

[annasdadhockey]

Just keeping a tally...So that's 1 person that thinks this is a good idea, and 34 people that think it is either a waste of time, potentially hazardous, or both. I'd say it's too close to call.

 

[nebben]

I know what most of you are thinking; "NO WAY!" "That's just crazy!" etc...

...but before you prejudge, please read through.

WARNING: This technique is for experienced brewers possessing intuition and common sense abilities.

Pros:
(1) The hot wort will stay sterile in the transfer. (not just "sanitized") thus reducing the chance of having an infected wort in the primary.
(2) No need for wort chillers and the inherent costs and problems they can cause.

Perhaps the cons were misrepresented in the OP's post...my thoughts are in red below:

Cons:
(1) 3rd degree burns possible and extremely painful surgery required if carboy ruptures due to thermal shock or dropping on floor. Anyone nearby will also suffer burns.
(2) Breaking carboys are bad, but 190F+ carboys breaking with hot wort in them is even worse.

....

My list for Iodophor (my sanitizer of choice)

Pros:
(1) At the proper concentration, it can sanitize anything it is in contact with if left for 2-5 minutes.
(2) Can sanitize plastic, glass and all metals
(3) It is quick (10 minutes or less from storage closet to ready for beer)
(4) Iodophor is cheap. As low as pennies per use

Cons:
(1) Can hurt your eyes if you splash into them
(2) Can leave a stain on some plastics
(3) Has the ability to stain grout or clothes

I don't use Star-san, but I would bet its list of cons is even shorter.

3rd degree burns are serious. They can require painful skin grafts, make infection a likely possibility, and cause a lifetime of suffering. Putting molten wort in a fragile container that has been known to break under the best conditions seems like an unreasonable gamble, especially when alternatives like a heat tolerant plastic fermenter or a stainless fermenter are out there.

 

[C2H5OH]

I understand that there are many out there that would never, under any circumstances, perform this technique. This thread was created to satisfy anyone's curiosity as to theory of whether you could or not. We could debate how unsafe or how unpractical this idea may be for you, but the bottom line is it can be done. I do it this way, and will continue to do it this way. I suspect that there may be at least one other person out there that might read this and realize this as something they would like to try.

Would you criticize the people that smelt steel for its inherent dangers or the astronauts that fly to the moon, or someone who makes a pill from mold that makes people better? Experimenting, taking risks, and doing things "outside the box" is what made this country once prosperous.

These days you have a better chance of being seriously injured or killed by someone's exploding underwear.

 

[malkore]

I see a major flaw: heating and cooling glass will cause stress fractures over time and eventually the carboy will fail.

I've seen an old carboy with stress fractures...its not pretty.

This also is WAY more work and WAY more dangerous than mixing up a gallon of star-san.
its a fairly complicated solution when a dozen easier (and safer) methods have been working for decades...nay...thousands of years.

 

[nebben]

I understand that there are many out there that would never, under any circumstances, perform this technique. This thread was created to satisfy anyone's curiosity as to theory of whether you could or not. We could debate how unsafe or how unpractical this idea may be for you, but the bottom line is it can be done. I do it this way, and will continue to do it this way. I suspect that there may be at least one other person out there that might read this and realize this as something they would like to try.

In a mythbusters kind of way, it is kind of cool to hear that it has been done. I'll give you that.

Would you criticize the people that smelt steel for its inherent dangers or the astronauts that fly to the moon, or someone who makes a pill from mold that makes people better? Experimenting, taking risks, and doing things "outside the box" is what made this country once prosperous.

Making steel is inherently dangerous. I don't do it, but some will, and they are paid for doing that job. What alternative is there to making steel? There aren't many non-hazardous ways of doing it. The same can be said for astronauts. If one fool went to the moon in a garbage bag and survived, I'd probably rail them for it too. NASA might have a better handle on that kind of operation than the company that makes Hefty bags.

What it comes down to is the alternatives. There are easy alternatives to your process that lessen the dangers dramatically. Why risk life and limb when you can not risk it for almost no cost?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

As someone who experienced a broken carboy, I'm not inclined to try this method. Mine had luke warm water in it when it broke (I don't know the exact temp, but it wasn't hot), and I'm still suffering from it. I don't really call it suffering, since I don't feel anything in two fingers and a thumb, but I may be like that for the rest of my life. I wouldn't want the kind of damage boiling wort would have done.

 

[mattmcl]

I do have to admire the maverick spirit. I haven't used a hydrometer to determine if it's time to bottle in 20 years of brewing, and I take an endless amount of ****e if I bring that up, but hell, that's how I do it.

 

[C2H5OH]

It's all good!

We're all brothers-in-brew, just with a differing point of view.​

 

[carnevoodoo]

We need a new forum for bad ideas. One misstep and you're f'ed. Sure, you might have done this 50 times or 100 times or whatever, but what happens that one time that your hand slips and you drop 5 gallons of boiling sugar water?

You've made it work, good for you. It is still an awful idea and realistically, this thread only opens up people to unproven, dangerous methods. This is just plain stupid, and I hope the thread is a practical joke.

 

[Brewers_Haven]

Nothing good can come from this. The carboy itself was not meant to oscillate between these temperatures. I couldn't see it making through one cycle let alone repeated expansion and contraction. As opposed to taking such drastic measures, just use star san.

 

[jtrainer]

If I told you, 100 years ago, that someday hundreds of people are going to climb into an aluminum tube and travel thousands of feet in the air from one coast to the other in less than a day's time at hundreds of miles per hour, you might have said the same then too.

I still do..... remember Richard Reid and or the Panty Bomber.... I apply the same logic to submarines.... why get into a boat that is designed to sink....

 

[passedpawn]

This whole process is very dangerous. I'd think it was a joke, but by now there are a bunch of brewer's probably considering doing it and the inevitable injuries won't be funny.

I used to juggle bottles (I was pretty good at it!). It worked fine for a long time. Then once my luck ran out. I don't do that anymore, I would not recommend anyone else does, either.

 

[annasdadhockey]

No risk, when care is taken in the process.

I used to juggle bottles (I was pretty good at it!). It worked fine for a long time. Then once my luck ran out. I don't do that anymore, I would not recommend anyone else does, either.

According to C2H5OH, if care was taken in your process, you'd still be juggling bottles.
"Hey, watch me stick my head in that tiger's mouth. As long as care is taken in the process, I'll never get hurt".

ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!!!!!

 

[C2H5OH]

If you think what I do is scary, definitely don't watch this...



No joking around, because the dangers are real. Here is an example of what a difference of temperature of approximately 130 deg. F can do.

 

[northernlad]

I think the most clear and concise way to put our concerns and comments is this:
Can you toss yourself over Niagra Falls in a barrel and survive? YES.

 

[McKBrew]

I wonder if I can do this with my better bottle

 

[jiggs_casey]

Why would you even attempt this?

Aside from the risk of burning your or your funnel jockeying friend, I would think that as this cools, you run the risk of implosion. If nothing else, it would make it difficult to remove the bung as it has probably now been sucked tightly into the top of the carboy.

In my opinion, the minimal of risk of infection isn't worth the extra effort...

 

[kaiser423]

We need a new forum for bad ideas. One misstep and you're f'ed. Sure, you might have done this 50 times or 100 times or whatever, but what happens that one time that your hand slips and you drop 5 gallons of boiling sugar water?

You've made it work, good for you. It is still an awful idea and realistically, this thread only opens up people to unproven, dangerous methods. This is just plain stupid, and I hope the thread is a practical joke.

I too require a demonstrated safety rating a couple orders of magnitude higher than 2% before I decide to take a risk this large.

Especially for something that at this point, I see providing negligible benefits.

I like no chill, and it is nice to know that everything has that extra level of sanitary that boiling liquids provides, but I'm not too sue that I'd take it to this level.

Nice work on having the cojones to do this though....I'd require big rubber boots and all types of fun things before I'd try this.

 

[The Pol]

I have a better idea.

Use an HDPE fermentor that handles boiling temps, has a handle, wont shatter (basically indestructible) and that can handle the vacuum caused by cooling wort....

They are $15

Drain your boiling wort (drain, do not pour boiling wort PLEASE!) into the fermentor.

The hot wort will sanitize the fermentor with heat.

Let cool.

That is all that I can say.

Why the heck you would ever want to do the same thing with GLASS, is beyond me.

 

[The Pol]

All you're doing is taking No-Chill brewing and making it more dangerous.

I would say this is a correct statement.

I like to see what is going on in my fermentor too... but not THIS much. Darwin takes care of the rest.

 

[C2H5OH]

Have you actually tried this yet???

My guess is that when the cooling wort contracts it will either suck in the bung you stuck into the carboy at step 7 or shatter the carboy (if the bung doesn't give first).

From what I've read about No-chill brewing....the cooling wort will really pull in the sides of those "cubes" they use. I can't imagine the walls of a glass carboy will tolerate those kinds of pressure.

I thought over your statements last night, which lead me to devised some modifications of the technique to satisfy the vacuum concerns. Thank you for helping me make the process safer. Changes can be noted in step #7

 

[OMJ]

Why would you even attempt this?
In my opinion, the minimal of risk of infection isn't worth the extra effort...

+1

I will take my chances with having to dump a batch of beer instead of taking my chances with flying glass and 212 degree wort.

 

[IrregularPulse]

The hot wort will sanitize the fermentor with heat.

Interested here. You don't use starsan or anything in the fermeneter? Just clean it from debris and let the bot wort sanitize? Makes sense with boiling temps.

 

[C2H5OH]

Interested here. You don't use starsan or anything in the fermeneter? Just clean it from debris and let the bot wort sanitize? Makes sense with boiling temps.

Correct. The oven temperatures and boiling wart will surpass what Starsan accompishes. However, since I have made up a small batch to sanitize my hands and other materials for the brewing process, I go ahead and swish a little Starsan around inside the carboy and rinse. (Not that you have to rinse, it is just what I do.)

Thanks for your interest on the topic.

 

[conpewter]

I have a better idea.

Use an HDPE fermentor that handles boiling temps, has a handle, wont shatter (basically indestructible) and that can handle the vacuum caused by cooling wort....

They are $15

Drain your boiling wort (drain, do not pour boiling wort PLEASE!) into the fermentor.

The hot wort will sanitize the fermentor with heat.

Let cool.

That is all that I can say.

Why the heck you would ever want to do the same thing with GLASS, is beyond me.

Based on some of the info in this thread would it be best to star-san the HDPE container before putting the boiling wort in there? It won't stay abobe 200 degrees for very long, won't sterilize that's for sure, but will it disinfect or sanitize?

 

[C2H5OH]

Based on some of the info in this thread would it be best to star-san the HDPE container before putting the boiling wort in there? It won't stay abobe 200 degrees for very long, won't sterilize that's for sure, but will it disinfect or sanitize?

Correct. Mostly because your primary wasn't in the oven and never had a chance to sterilize/disinfect. Plus, because of what you said about the wort temps, you still should sanitize. (It never hurts to sanitize with Star-san.)

 

[RDWHAHB]

I see no reason not to put HDPE in the oven. Remember, the stuff was made by heating it to a liquid. So its safe.

/Sarcasm

 

[springer]

Still at 250° it takes 12 hours to sanitize glass in the oven . So you are doing nothing but heating the glass up.

Table 3 - Dry Heat Sterilization

Temperature


Duration

338°F (170°C) 60 minutes

320°F (160°C) 120 minutes

302°F (150°C) 150 minutes

284°F (140°C) 180 minutes

250°F (121°C) 12 hours (Overnight


Some people do sanitize there bottles(12 oz) in the oven but they let them cool in the oven and put in cool beer and cap

 

[IrregularPulse]

Correct. The oven temperatures and boiling wart will surpass what Starsan accompishes. However, since I have made up a small batch to sanitize my hands and other materials for the brewing process, I go ahead and swish a little Starsan around inside the carboy and rinse. (Not that you have to rinse, it is just what I do.)

Thanks for your interest on the topic.

Sorry for the confusion. I was asking Pol about his method. I Agree with everyone saying that heating the glass is an unnecessary risk. sorry.

 

[jds]

Based on some of the info in this thread would it be best to star-san the HDPE container before putting the boiling wort in there? It won't stay abobe 200 degrees for very long, won't sterilize that's for sure, but will it disinfect or sanitize?

I've been no-chilling my last few beers too, and I do sanitize the winpak before I fill it -- mostly as a belt-and-suspenders action. Also, since I brew at altitude, my boiling temperature is only around 195F.

However, the winpak does remain hot for several hours after filling. 6 gallons of boiling 1.060 liquid is a lot of thermal mass.

 

[C2H5OH]

I see no reason not to put HDPE in the oven. Remember, the stuff was made by heating it to a liquid. So its safe.

/Sarcasm

LOL. In the case that someone may have gotten the impression that I suggested putting plastics in the oven...

...Don't put plastics in your oven!


(Heck, I don't even microwave cookware that has plastic.)

 

[C2H5OH]

Still at 250° it takes 12 hours to sanitize glass in the oven.

Wrong.

...You say sanitize, but what you're describing is sterilization.

There seems to be some confusion between the 2 terms. So, in an effort to
clear it up, here are a couple of definitions to keep in mind:

Sanitize - to render sanitary, or free from elements, such as filth or some
pathogens, that endanger health. This does not mean ALL possible
microorganisms, etc, but MOST. Sanitizing does not remove ALL bacteria,
microorganisms, etc.

Sterilize - to render sterile, or to make free from ALL live bacteria or
other microorganisms. Kind of a "total kill" of everything.

Something that is sterilized can also be considered sanitary, but
something that is sanitized is not sterile.

In brewing, sanitary is the standard. In medicine, sterile.

 

[The Pol]

Interested here. You don't use starsan or anything in the fermeneter? Just clean it from debris and let the bot wort sanitize? Makes sense with boiling temps.

Stop changing your damn avatar...

I always star san before I fill the Winpak...
Just saying, if you are totally freaked about infections, no chill is nice since you not only sanitize (I do) but you also get the heat in there for a period of time as well.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

If you buy a carboy and it has a small air bubble or stress crack, it's only a matter of time before it fails. By expanding and contacting glass like this--especially when it's not designed for repeated cool/heat cycles--it's only a matter of time before failure occurs. It's not a matter of 'if' but 'when' and when it does, look out!

I just hope noobs read the thread all the way through. It would seem to me that if you are really that concerend with sterility/plastics, you could just ferment in the kettle when it cools. Or buy a SS pot with tight fitting lid, etc

Hell, I'd rather toss 1 batch in 50, than have 1 in 50 send me to the ER.

Too many points of failure, too much risk---too little reward.

Thanks for the idea, but you really should expand on the list of 'cons' this list is considerably larger than originally presented. IMO, this is misleading and really deserves an edit.

 

[nebben]

Get a stainless conical with silicone seals or high temp tolerant rubber. Get a lid that you can mount a temporary heatstick to, and lower it into the wort. Make sure the lid is loosely fitting, in case a boilover occurs, and flip power switch to on position. When boil is complete per your recipe, quickly remove the lid+heatstick, put lid back on minus heatstick, seal, and insert a drilled bung with airlock into the hole that the heatstick went through. When the wort is cooled, finish putting airlock together and add water/vodka mix.

Sanitized fermenter FTW, and you can dump the trub too at your leisure.

 

[C2H5OH]

Get a stainless conical with silicone seals or high temp tolerant rubber. Get a lid that you can mount a temporary heatstick to, and lower it into the wort. Make sure the lid is loosely fitting, in case a boilover occurs, and flip power switch to on position. When boil is complete per your recipe, quickly remove the lid+heatstick, put lid back on minus heatstick, seal, and insert a drilled bung with airlock into the hole that the heatstick went through. When the wort is cooled, finish putting airlock together and add water/vodka mix.

Sanitized fermenter FTW, and you can dump the trub too at your leisure.

I agree. In the right size, that would be my dream setup. This morning I was looking for just such an animal, but I have yet found one small enough for my needs.

(I brew for quality, not quantity.)

...I will keep looking.

Thank you, nebben, for taking the time and thought to piece together a viable alternative for me.

Cheers,
My first brew tonight, I will have in your honor.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Can we get this thread locked or deleted? Seriously stupid.

 

[the_bird]

Wrong.

...You say sanitize, but what you're describing is sterilization.

There seems to be some confusion between the 2 terms. So, in an effort to
clear it up, here are a couple of definitions to keep in mind:

Sanitize - to render sanitary, or free from elements, such as filth or some
pathogens, that endanger health. This does not mean ALL possible
microorganisms, etc, but MOST. Sanitizing does not remove ALL bacteria,
microorganisms, etc.

Sterilize - to render sterile, or to make free from ALL live bacteria or
other microorganisms. Kind of a "total kill" of everything.

Something that is sterilized can also be considered sanitary, but
something that is sanitized is not sterile.

In brewing, sanitary is the standard. In medicine, sterile.

If you're not sterilizing, what the ****'s the point?

+1 on this being a really, really, REALLY dumb idea. Too much work for negligible benefit even if you had a nice Pyrex carboy, and way too much risk given the known quality defects in the cheap Mexican/Italian carboys we all own.

I've seen probably three times as many posts about broken carboys (under FAR less stressful scenarios that you're laying out) than you have at HBT in total. I'm half-convinced that you're just trolling.