Boil Times: Electric vs Propane vs Natural Gas

[Mike1234]

Does anyone have decent data about boil times for different heat sources?
I have a converted keg and would like to do 10gallons next batch. I'm planning on upgrading from the gas stove.
Thinking about going
5500watt electric element, bayou burner or natural gas burner.
Does anybody have good data or experience with those options for 10gal?
I like the idea of brewing inside and PID/automation, so I'm leaning towards electric, just worried my boil will take forever.

 

[passedpawn]

The following was measured and graphed directly with a logging thermometer. Sorta hard to make out, but time along the X axis is in minutes.

• 10g
• uninsulated keggle with lid
• 5500W element ( @ 100%)
• Ambient Temp = 65F
• March 809 pump recirculating continuously

 

[passedpawn]

Incidentally, I measured the voltage and current at the element.

• Voltage = 233.5 VAC
• Amperage = 22.01 Arms

So, I was really only getting 5139W of power to the element. The losses were in my house wiring and in the control box (resistive losses in SSRs).

Further, after calculating the caloric requirements to raise 10g of water to boiling, you might find that the boil should have come more quickly. Some quick calcs told me that I was losing about 10% of the heat going into my water to the ambient. If I had insulated the pot, it would have been that much quicker.

 

[runningweird]

passedpawn - ever have scorching while running your element @ full power?

I have camco ripple elements, running on 220 - I'm kind of afraid to run them full blast.

 

[runningweird]

something to consider is the amount of insulation you provide to your kettle, wrapped in shiny bubble wrap with some kind of lid for the warm up phase (yes, I put a lid on while it ramps up, no it doesn't give off flavors if you take it off before it starts boiling)

there is a ton of heat loss through the top and sides, I find even a loose wrap of insulation provides noticeable decreases in the time it takes to reach a boil

 

[passedpawn]

passedpawn - ever have scorching while running your element @ full power?

I have camco ripple elements, running on 220 - I'm kind of afraid to run them full blast.

I think only one batch (a german pilsner). The circumstances were a bit unusual, though. BTW, I run them 100% every time I brew until the beer gets to boil, then I back it off.

I've run over 100 batches on the same elements. I almost never cleaned them (just a quick spray). I did notice that there was a thickish layer built up on them, but my elements were very difficult to remove for cleaning, so I just lived with it. Then, this summer, I had a accidental dry-fire event. I smelled smoke coming from the element as the thick layer of grunge was burning off. I scraped them the best I could, and continued to make my pilsner. That beer would have a faint but noticeable smoke flavor.

I have just rebuild the keggles to make the elements easily removable and replaceable (just one triclamp and they are off).

 

[runningweird]

I think only one batch (a german pilsner). The circumstances were a bit unusual, though. BTW, I run them 100% every time I brew until the beer gets to boil, then I back it off.

I've run over 100 batches on the same elements. I almost never cleaned them (just a quick spray). I did notice that there was a thickish layer built up on them, but my elements were very difficult to remove for cleaning, so I just lived with it. Then, this summer, I had a accidental dry-fire event. I smelled smoke coming from the element as the thick layer of grunge was burning off. I scraped them the best I could, and continued to make my pilsner. That beer would have a faint but noticeable smoke flavor.

I have just rebuild the keggles to make the elements easily removable and replaceable (just one triclamp and they are off).

are you running any kind of wort recirculation?

 

[passedpawn]

are you running any kind of wort recirculation?

Not during the boil - until I start recirculation through plate chiller.

 

[runningweird]

super neat, I am going to run mine full strength next batch to hit boil

 

[VladOfTrub]

Let's see. According to James Watt, a BTU is one pound of water raised one degree at sea level. A heater operating at 5100 Watts is about 17K BTU/Hr. Ten gallons of water weighs about 83 pounds. Now, we are raising the temp from 70F to 212F. That gives a TD of 142 F. So we take 142 F X 83 and get 11.7K BTU/Hr. The heater has plenty of power to hit 212F. But now here comes the problem. It takes 960 BTU/Hr/Pound to change state from liquid to boiling. It takes about 79K BTU/Hr. to bring 83 pounds of water to boil in one hour. The graph and times are good at 210F. The graph is GREAT input!! ......OP...Size the means of heating according to BTU/Hr/Lb.. Here's something to consider if using gas. If you purchase a high BTU flame thrower and crank it up. The flame will climb the sides of the keg. Brewing in bright light, the flame might not be visible and could become dangerous. I use Blichmann burners with NG. Full bore at 8" WC, the flame climbs the sides of a Blichmann 20 gallon kettle. The burner under a 30 gallon Blichmann, the flame doesn't climb the sides. The 30 heats water quicker than the 20 using the same volume of water. The 30 is wider.

 

[Mike1234]

The following was measured and graphed directly with a logging thermometer.

What type of hardware/software do you have for the logging thermometer?

Your boil time data has answered my question: I'm going electric.
Now just a question of how crazy I get with automation and data logging etc

 

[passedpawn]

What type of hardware/software do you have for the logging thermometer?

Your boil time data has answered my question: I'm going electric.
Now just a question of how crazy I get with automation and data logging etc

It's this handheld 4-channel gizmo. Doesn't work anymore. Looks like this:

 

[jrgtr42]

I presume you're more talking about time taken to get the water / wort to a boil rather than the actual boil - once it's at a rolling boil, that's when the clock starts, and you need an hour from there to close.
Time taken to get to boil is more an effect of BTUs, either actual or theoretical, since electric doesn't quite measure that way. It's power applied to the liquid.

 

[opiate82]

This is well beyond my expertise, but as I understand it, propane has a higher energy output than natural gas over twice as much actually (2,516 BTU per 1 cubic foot vs natural gas which is 1,030 BTU per 1 cubic foot). I *believe* that is means that propane can boil water much faster than natural gas, but the equipment you are using plays a huge role in realizing those potential advantages.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

When I switched from propane to natural gas, I saw no noticeable difference in heating times. Actually now in the cold weather I have found that I can heat faster with NG because my propane tank would constantly freeze up when I was running multiple burners.

 

[Mike1234]

This is well beyond my expertise, but as I understand it, propane has a higher energy output than natural gas over twice as much actually (2,516 BTU per 1 cubic foot vs natural gas which is 1,030 BTU per 1 cubic foot). I *believe* that is means that propane can boil water much faster than natural gas, but the equipment you are using plays a huge role in realizing those potential advantages.

Not exactly. What matters is the energy delivered, not the energy density of fuel. If a natural gas and propane burner delivered the same volume of fuel in a given time period, then propane would deliver more heat.
Ability of a system to heat water is a function of the amount of energy delivered per unit of time and the efficiency of the system at transferring the energy to heating the water.
To get anywhere with calculations, there are more inputs that are needed, which is why experience will be easier and accurate enough for this discussion.
I was hoping for replys like: "My bayou burner model xx boils 10 gals in xx minutes."

 

[day_trippr]

My Blichmann burner running "high pressure" propane will bring 6.5 gallons of water from 55°F to a boil (200ft ASL) in 35 minutes with modest blow-by on a 15" diameter kettle. It'll go quicker but it'd hasten climate change.

There's nothing that's going to touch the efficiency of immersion electric heaters. My perfect brewery would be dual-fuel, electric for the 95% of the time I'm brewing (at home) and propane for those "event" brews where a big @ss power feed isn't available...

Cheers!

 

[biertourist]

There's nothing that's going to touch the efficiency of immersion electric heaters. My perfect brewery would be dual-fuel, electric for the 95% of the time I'm brewing (at home) and propane for those "event" brews where a big @ss power feed isn't available...
Cheers!

Yep, except those crazy British brewers who put 240v electric elements into double wall insulated stainless "thermoboxes" -they've got high amp 240v electric elements AND very well insulated vessels so SUPER, SUPER efficient. (But those vessels are a GIANT pain to work with and don't even THINK about stainless welding one.) -I had one stainless welded and made into a mashtun; caught the inside layer on fire for a brief few seconds...


Adam

 

[Komocabo]

I have the BG14 (10" Bayou classic) burner. I get 14 gals of strike water from 65-165 in about 25 mins. I can boil 12 gals of wort within 35-40 mins depending how nervous I get about a boil over

 

[runningweird]

I think only one batch (a german pilsner). The circumstances were a bit unusual, though. BTW, I run them 100% every time I brew until the beer gets to boil, then I back it off.

I've run over 100 batches on the same elements. I almost never cleaned them (just a quick spray). I did notice that there was a thickish layer built up on them, but my elements were very difficult to remove for cleaning, so I just lived with it. Then, this summer, I had a accidental dry-fire event. I smelled smoke coming from the element as the thick layer of grunge was burning off. I scraped them the best I could, and continued to make my pilsner. That beer would have a faint but noticeable smoke flavor.

I have just rebuild the keggles to make the elements easily removable and replaceable (just one triclamp and they are off).

my post is

I just made a late hop addition pale ale, its going to be my obsession beer - I plan on making it over and over again until its perfect - and I ran the element full blast without any scorching or pants wetting. it came to a boil within about 10 minutes of mashing out. it really shortened my brew day.