Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

Williams 728
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Tartan1 said:
Your flow rate seems a bit high which could explain the cooler temps of the discharge water. My calculations estimate you are outputting approx 21Gal/Hr. I use a 9Gal/Hr spray head and the exit water is very hot to the touch. Just a thought! Sounds like your setup is working fine, your just using more water than might be required.
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About 21Gal/hr sounds about right. I'll look for a nozzle with a lower flow rate and see what happens :mug:
 
rkhanso said:
Mine runs differently I guess. The discharge water is very hot - I measured it once last year at 175F, but that was only a couple feet after the condenser.
I'm planning a brew in the next week or so and will check it again.
Click to expand...

If it's coming out that hot, I'd imagine it's steaming quite a bit wherever the discharge empties. You need a higher flow nozzle or dial the power down.
 
My condenser flow is about 20 litres per hour, seems to be cooler than body temp. But no problems with DMS with the gentle boil for an hour.
@McMullan
When you do your test boil it's really your reduced losses that you need to work out for your brewing program. My losses in the region of 0.7 litre per hour so hardly any change in gravity with a one hour boil of 28 litres total volume. My flow is very subject to my water input pressure, I do have a pressure gauge on my tap supplying it and the spray is a very fine mist from the garden sprayer nozzle that I use. Have you tried reducing the water flow at the tap?
 
DuncB said:
My condenser flow is about 20 litres per hour, seems to be cooler than body temp. But no problems with DMS with the gentle boil for an hour.
@McMullan
When you do your test boil it's really your reduced losses that you need to work out for your brewing program. My losses in the region of 0.7 litre per hour so hardly any change in gravity with a one hour boil of 28 litres total volume. My flow is very subject to my water input pressure, I do have a pressure gauge on my tap supplying it and the spray is a very fine mist from the garden sprayer nozzle that I use. Have you tried reducing the water flow at the tap?
Click to expand...
Actually, you've reminded me next test is to measure the new water loss then adjust boil off rate in BeerSmith. I tried adjusting water pressure, but the nozzle seems to be an all-or-nothing affair, acting as a kind of restrictor. Once at atomisation pressure (1barish) increasing water pressure has minimal effect. With the water on full (3-4bar) the flow rate increased by less than 150ml/min. I'm going to try a nozzle with a flow rate of 0.64L/min, but after sleeping on it I don't want the discharge water to be too hot, because that's not really dealing with a steam problem, just transferring it.
 
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I find the 9gph gives me warm water, but 6gph is too hot to hold a hand under. If you're discharging into PVC, then you will want to run cooler. Anything above 130-140F will melt PVC glue, and also warp pipe. Have seen pictures of brewery sink drains that are sagged and had to be replaced due to too much hot water over a period of time. It's not like your kitchen sink that is fine to see a pot of boiling water for 3-5 seconds when draining pasta. This is running for 30-90+ minutes and it's the prolonged exposure that will wreck things in short order.
 
That is a very high flow rate, ~3.5X what I have used for several years on my similarly sized 20G Spike kettle. My discharge is a little on the hotter side at ~150°F/65°C. It is also possible that the 2" tubing leads to more efficient cooling.

Why did you add the extension below the Tee? That is a LOT of weight cantilevered off your kettle. I cannot see how that adds any value, just significant cost and weight. Finally, I am not familiar with how the Braumeister lid seats, but you may find that the bung is not necessary. I have never had an issue with the seal on my lid with a standard stepped lid.
 
cbier60 said:
That is a very high flow rate, ~3.5X what I have used for several years on my similarly sized 20G Spike kettle. My discharge is a little on the hotter side at ~150°F/65°C. It is also possible that the 2" tubing leads to more efficient cooling.

Why did you add the extension below the Tee? That is a LOT of weight cantilevered off your kettle. I cannot see how that adds any value, just significant cost and weight. Finally, I am not familiar with how the Braumeister lid seats, but you may find that the bung is not necessary. I have never had an issue with the seal on my lid with a standard stepped lid.
Click to expand...
It's not as heavy as it looks. Originally I ordered a one-piece 1.5" to 2" RIMS tube very similar to the 'slayer', with the 1.5" 'T' close to the top, but order got cancelled due to seller being locked down in China. Then I found something much shorter that needed an extension, but, again, order got cancelled. So I ordered a slightly longer one. Oddly, the short one turned up today. I'll swap it later. Anyway, total length is about the same as the RIMS tube and with a narrow angled nozzle it just seemed the way to go.

Edit: refitted with the shorter T section. A bit (~25mm) closer to the kettle and being about 40mm shorter I had to use a shorter (20mm) extension for the nozzle.

DSC_0201.JPG
 
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Damm good price for all of those parts. Looks like it would do the job. You'd be able to throttle the flow using the ball lock valve, trouble is sometimes the spray needs a minimum pressure for it to work and therefore the output is fairly fixed or output goes down but no spray just a jet or drip. I used the brass sprayer nozzle from the end of a garden / plant sprayer soldered onto a piece of copper pipe. That does have spray variance with the pressure, I think you can control water pressure with the kegland inline regulator, I have another device for pressure control that fits on the tap.
Looks like you could mount this in a domed lid on the kettle as well provided you generate a down slope towards the outflow. This is doable by not tightening up the connector and how I have mounted my condenser.
 
McMullan said:
. I'm going to try a nozzle with a flow rate of 0.64L/min, but after sleeping on it I don't want the discharge water to be too hot, because that's not really dealing with a steam problem, just transferring it.
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My condenser outflow goes into a Container with small opening, its warm not hot but difficult for evaporation to get out through small opening.
Its a bit like a plastic 5 gallon jerry can and so I then take the water where I need it easily.
Washing, garden, car wash etc.
 
I have been running the BH steam slayer (3" wide body) for some time and I recenty upgrade to a bigger system.
I found out that the 9GPH steam nozzle I have is on the edge and I am looking for a misting nozzle with higher throughput.
macmaster-carr only offers 9.49GPH nozzels. Anyone know where can I find a higher nozzel with 1/8" NPT thread?
 
Have you measured the water temp coming out of the drain line? Curious how hot it is. You're probably right about it being on the edge but there's a chance it's OK.

Do you have any valves or restrictions in the line that are potentially limiting the water pressure?

If you go back to McMaster and get out of the "misting" nozzles and into the "spraying" nozzles you will find some higher outputs. Goes from 9.x gph (hour) to like 0.2 gpm (minute). Example: McMaster-Carr
 
tracer bullet said:
Have you measured the water temp coming out of the drain line? Curious how hot it is. You're probably right about it being on the edge but there's a chance it's OK.

Do you have any valves or restrictions in the line that are potentially limiting the water pressure?

If you go back to McMaster and get out of the "misting" nozzles and into the "spraying" nozzles you will find some higher outputs. Goes from 9.x gph (hour) to like 0.2 gpm (minute). Example: McMaster-Carr
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Yes, I measured, it gets to ~150F (ground water ~70F) and I get the steam back from my drain bucket.
No valves or restrictions. with the 9GPH tip I get closer to 10-11gallons
 
I was experimenting with my home made steam condenser. I have a 9 gph nozzle. With the power set at 35%the water coming out of the unit was steamy and 145 F. I lower the power to 30% and the water was down to 85 F. The kettle was boiling in both cases just not as much at 30%.
 
I tend to manage a boil between 25 and 30 percent power, water from condenser is warm not hot. Higher percentage I end up with too rapid a boil and the water from output is hotter.
 
Bad Bubba said:
I was experimenting with my home made steam condenser. I have a 9 gph nozzle. With the power set at 35%the water coming out of the unit was steamy and 145 F. I lower the power to 30% and the water was down to 85 F. The kettle was boiling in both cases just not as much at 30%.
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Interesting. I wonder if there's some threshold where it goes from linear to "can't do it any more".
 
DuncB said:
I suppose the temperature of your spray water will also have an effect.
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Actually the temp of the spray water has a small effect because most of the heat transfer in this system is latent heat. Steam contains ~2230 joules per gram (heat of vaporization) at boiling. So the first thing the condenser system has to do is remove that heat in order condense the steam.
The sensible heat is a very small component. The mass of spray water relative to the mass of will have a much bigger impact. That is why changing the power setting has a big impact - it is reducing the mass of steam exiting the condenser so much less latent heat is leaving the system.
 
So I suppose the water temperature will have an effect. It's a balance of energy density as we all realise. More warm water or less colder water and the equations can balance the same.
 
nati said:
I have been running the BH steam slayer (3" wide body) for some time and I recenty upgrade to a bigger system.
I found out that the 9GPH steam nozzle I have is on the edge and I am looking for a misting nozzle with higher throughput.
macmaster-carr only offers 9.49GPH nozzels. Anyone know where can I find a higher nozzel with 1/8" NPT thread?
Click to expand...
McMaster-Carr also offers fogging nozzles which offer a greater water throughput. I don't see any reason they won't work and they offer them in 1/8inch thread. They are more expensive though.

Fogging Nozzles
 
Bad Bubba said:
I was experimenting with my home made steam condenser. I have a 9 gph nozzle. With the power set at 35%the water coming out of the unit was steamy and 145 F. I lower the power to 30% and the water was down to 85 F. The kettle was boiling in both cases just not as much at 30%.
Click to expand...
How powerful is your heating element? If we assume that your kettle is a closed system (a reasonable first-order assumption), then heat_in must equal heat_out. Assuming all other factors remain constant (e.g., radiant heat from the kettle should be the same regardless of how vigorous the boil, nozzle flow rate, etc.) then the change in water temperature should determine the change in heat_out. So delta_heat_out = delta_T * flow_rate * joules/degree = 60F * 9 gph * joules/degree. Converting to standard units delta_heat_out = 15.5C * 9 gallons/hour * 3785 grams/gallon * 1 hour/3600 seconds * 4.182 joules/gram*C = 613 J/s = 613 W
If delta_heat_in = 5% * heating_element_power, then this suggests you have a 12,267 W heating element, which is larger than any that I am familiar with. Do you have two 5500 W elements? That would likely be within the margin of error of my calculation.

Of course it is also possible that my calculation/assumptions are flawed. Maybe others can chime in.
 
DavidWood2115 said:
How powerful is your heating element? If we assume that your kettle is a closed system (a reasonable first-order assumption), then heat_in must equal heat_out. Assuming all other factors remain constant (e.g., radiant heat from the kettle should be the same regardless of how vigorous the boil, nozzle flow rate, etc.) then the change in water temperature should determine the change in heat_out. So delta_heat_out = delta_T * flow_rate * joules/degree = 60F * 9 gph * joules/degree. Converting to standard units delta_heat_out = 15.5C * 9 gallons/hour * 3785 grams/gallon * 1 hour/3600 seconds * 4.182 joules/gram*C = 613 J/s = 613 W
If delta_heat_in = 5% * heating_element_power, then this suggests you have a 12,267 W heating element, which is larger than any that I am familiar with. Do you have two 5500 W elements? That would likely be within the margin of error of my calculation.

Of course it is also possible that my calculation/assumptions are flawed. Maybe others can chime in.
Click to expand...
You made me laugh. I appreciate your enthusiasm to peer review my little "experiment". But it was more a qualitative experiment than a quantitative experiment and certainly was not carried out with the experimental rigor to justify the detailed calculations you are attempting. Basically I changed one variable - the power input to my heating element and I observed a corresponding drop in temperature from my overhead condenser. This actually was an expected outcome so I shared my observation. It was not meant as a definitive thesis by any means.

If I was going to your level of detail, I would need to exactly know the mass flow rate to my spray nozzle, I would need to measure the mass out of the condenser (because there is condensate that would need to be accounted for), plus measure the power consumed accurately. I will admit I did not measure any of those parameters.

Here are a couple of things you can consider: The water pressure at my tap runs about 60psi, the nozzle I used is rated for 9.6 gph @40PSI. I have no idea what it puts out at 60 psi but it would be more and that would drastically change your calculation (based on the partially filled buckets I take out to dump on the lawn I would guess ~12gph). I have no curve or chart for power output vs controller % for my system, I would like to believe 30% is close to 30% but I do not know.

I certainly would encourage you to design an experiment if this is of interest to you. But I am sorry if I misled anyone, mine was solely an observation that may warrant a more detailed analysis by others.
 
@McMullan
Quality work there, worth making some insulation to go on that. High density foam sleeping mat works well, I also wrap the tubing pre spray up so condensation occurs more at spray in tube rather than lid/ early pipes. You do have a downward angle on the " horizontal pipe" so early condensation runs out rather than back in?
 
DuncB said:
@McMullan
Quality work there, worth making some insulation to go on that. High density foam sleeping mat works well, I also wrap the tubing pre spray up so condensation occurs more at spray in tube rather than lid/ early pipes. You do have a downward angle on the " horizontal pipe" so early condensation runs out rather than back in?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'll get an insulation jacket at some point, especially with electricity prices at the moment. I leave one in my 20L because it helps to keep wort cool as well. For the steam condenser I've got the exhaust pipe roughly horizontal, but due to the nature of the spray pattern (narrow cone) and extension tube, no run back into the kettle, even if tilted the wrong way.
 
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@McMullan
The down tilt is for the natural condensation that occurs in the tubing before the spray point.
Condensation occurs on the lid and pipework and insulation with the tilt means more steam reaches spray and any ambient condensation runs out.
 
DuncB said:
@McMullan
The down tilt is for the natural condensation that occurs in the tubing before the spray point.
Condensation occurs on the lid and pipework and insulation with the tilt means more steam reaches spray and any ambient condensation runs out.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean now 👍 I'll put a slight tilt on it an check the boil off rate again.
 
Have to admit when I peer into my kettle and it's boiling there are drips coming off the lid but I'm assuming that the DMS is more volatile than water and I haven't had any problems with DMS at all.
My boil off rate is only about 650ml per hour now and so I've had to adjust the equipment profile a bit to account for this.
 
Boil off rate confirmed at about 9.4% per hour. Almost twice what I was expecting, but there doesn't seem to be any user control over the boil on the new BM. Seems to be an all-or-nothing affair. Quite a vigorous boil. I think Speidel need to fix that in a future software update. I prefer a less vigorous boil these days.

Edit: This is a bit surreal. Vigorous boil without any noticeable steam escaping:


 
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McMullan said:
This is a bit surreal. Vigorous boil without any noticeable steam escaping:
Click to expand...

I've seen that at times in my life. Something along the lines of the boiled water becoming an invisible gas, steam being what is seen when that gas condenses back together above the boiling water itself, and that amount of condensing (if any) depending on other conditions like temperature and humidity in the room.
 
tracer bullet said:
I've seen that at times in my life. Something along the lines of the boiled water becoming an invisible gas, steam being what is seen when that gas condenses back together above the boiling water itself, and that amount of condensing (if any) depending on other conditions like temperature and humidity in the room.
Click to expand...
Steam is invisible. What is visible is the phase change that occurs when it encounters cooler air and turns back to liquid. Steam is dry too, in fact you can light a match with super heated steam.
 
DuncB said:
You do have a downward angle on the " horizontal pipe" so early condensation runs out rather than back in?
Click to expand...
Due to health I haven't been able to do much in a while, but I'm restless and feeling photo-happy today, so I'm using that as an excuse to share my solution to the back-flow issue:
My keggle has a domed brewbucket lid with the 1.5"TC that I can attach my condeser to, so I got a pair of 1.5">2" TC excentric adapters and put them back to back with one 'flat' side top, and the other 'flat' side opposite bottom:
IMG_1379.jpg

Works like a charm without have to bend or tilt anything. :mug:
 
DuncB said:
@McMullan
That's a surprise on boil control.
You need to be able to dial the power back not control by cycling an SSR.
I think you will not be able to avoid boilover at full power with wort and hops and a lid on.
Click to expand...
That's mine concern, too. 😬
 
@Broken Crow
That is a very elegant solution.
I made mine with 2 inch to start and then down to 1.5 inch with one of those reducers but just went for the simple solution of not doing the bulkhead to triclover up tight so it tilts.
 

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