Mostly 6 gallon with 8.5-9 gallon starting volume, mostly 90 minute boils. Just go 9 gph.
Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed
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DexterBrewing
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Hey guys,
Massively interested in this, seems like the perfect solution for brewing indoors.
I currently have no control panel for my electric brewery, however i'm just about to upgrade to a HERMS system. For this I plan to make a control panel with a single PID in a control box big enough to expand on in the future. This PID will control the HLT for the HERMS process with the temperature probe fitted at the mash tun.
I really want to build a steam condenser, but I know that boiling will the lid on will retain heat much greater than how I currently use it.
Would it be possible to unplug the HLT element from my control panel and plug in my kettle element allowing me to reduce the power going to my kettle element during the steam condenser process?
Under normal operation the control panel will read temperature from my probe at the mash tun and adjust accordingly. This probe will be fixed into position and I wouldn't like to move it. I've read somewhere in this thread its possible to run the PID in manual mode, could anyone expand on this and potentially tell me if its possible with my situation?
Ideally i'd just like to switch plugs for now, keep the temperature probe in place - but not really be in use for the kettle boil. And manually control the kettle element by programming the PID to say run at 50%?
Thanks
Dave
Massively interested in this, seems like the perfect solution for brewing indoors.
I currently have no control panel for my electric brewery, however i'm just about to upgrade to a HERMS system. For this I plan to make a control panel with a single PID in a control box big enough to expand on in the future. This PID will control the HLT for the HERMS process with the temperature probe fitted at the mash tun.
I really want to build a steam condenser, but I know that boiling will the lid on will retain heat much greater than how I currently use it.
Would it be possible to unplug the HLT element from my control panel and plug in my kettle element allowing me to reduce the power going to my kettle element during the steam condenser process?
Under normal operation the control panel will read temperature from my probe at the mash tun and adjust accordingly. This probe will be fixed into position and I wouldn't like to move it. I've read somewhere in this thread its possible to run the PID in manual mode, could anyone expand on this and potentially tell me if its possible with my situation?
Ideally i'd just like to switch plugs for now, keep the temperature probe in place - but not really be in use for the kettle boil. And manually control the kettle element by programming the PID to say run at 50%?
Thanks
Dave
Wizard_of_Frobozz
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In principle, yes, it's possible to do as you are asking.
In practice, it depends on a a few things:
1. What PID controller are you using? It may or may not have a manual mode; do you already have it or are you looking to get one? Some PID's are more user-friendly with manual mode than others.
2. Are both heating elements 240V or 120V? If one is 240V and the other is 120V, then it becomes a LOT harder to do what you want. Not impossible, but a lot more complicated. If they are both the same voltage, then read the next point.
3. What power level are your two heating elements? Need to make sure the plugs match up, which isn't a big deal (assuming the two heating elements are both the same voltage). You pick a plug and receptacle combination for the highest amperage AND have the proper wire sizes and circuit protection for the highest current either heater will pull. Technically, you may need to have different circuit protection for each heating element if they are significantly different in power level. It's easier if both heaters are the same wattage and voltage.
A lot of people use contactors to switch between heating elements to achieve basically the same thing as switching the plugs, just uses some big relays to do the job so you don't have to unplug but it does add complexity.
One thing to be very careful on: DO NOT PULL A HEATER PLUG OUT WHILE IT IS ON! Never disconnect a big load while it's pulling current through the wires or you could get an arc as you pull the pug. This can be very dangerous. Add an "OFF" switch that completely disconnects the power - the SSR is not a reliable way to disconnect power. If you are using a 5500W heater or lower power, a disconnect switch is easy to add without breaking the bank: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton...ble-Pole-Switch-White-R62-03032-2WS/100356941 This type of switch is a double pole switch, so you completely disconnect both "hot" wires (if you're working with 240V) and is rated up to 30 amps, which is more than what a 5500W heater will pull. You can find them at pretty much any hardware store (not just Home Depot).
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DexterBrewing
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Thank you for the reply.
Each element I use in the HLT and the kettle are identical, so it seems I shouldn't have any issues switching over the plugs for my boil.
The PID I've ordered is the following;
Inkbird PID Temperature Controller Thermostat ITC-100VH
Thanks for your additional safety information, I didn't even think of this being a issue. I didn't consider installing a disconnect switch, but I might look into that now. I have a very limited experience with electronics, the whole PID build already feels a bit daunting for me to be honest, so I didn't want to over complicate anything inside - but just leave room to expand as I learn more.
When I've used my elements in the past, they have been plugged into mains power and when i'm finished using them I've switched the power off at the socket and then unplugged the element from the socket. I assume this is what your getting at in your safety information - that if I left the power on but just unplugged while the element is heating an arc could occur?
Therefore taking this into a PID controller, the best thing to do to switch plugs would be to disconnect the controller from mains supply before unplugging the element and switching it with the kettle element?
Wizard_of_Frobozz
Well-Known Member
Yup, you should be good to go on that, since they are the same voltage and power, the circuit, wires, breakers, etc. will work with either heating element.
I don't have any experience with that PID controller, but a quick check of the manual (https://www.ink-bird.com/products-PID-controller-itc100.html - see the link at the bottom left of the page) says it has a manual mode so you should be able to adjust the power % with that.
Take this advice for what it's worth, but I would recommend you learn how electricity works with your house circuits and how to wire up 240V circuits (assuming that's what you are working with...). Electricity and water don't mix well; if you don't know what you are doing it can kill you. I don't say this to discourage you, but to encourage you to make sure you build a safe setup. As you said, this can be daunting, but it's totally worth it to learn it up front. That way, you know you've built a safe system vs. using someone else's circuit diagram that you found online somewhere. Not saying that's what you are doing, but I'm always amazed at how many people just want someone else to figure it out for them. Use this forum for help, and definitely learn from the many circuit diagrams that are out there, but make sure you fully understand how and why your system is put together. As I said, this stuff can kill you: do you really want to take chances with this stuff?
Yes, this is what I'm getting at. If you pull a plug while it's got current flowing through it, you'll get a spark. The more current, the bigger the spark. When you are talking about 20+ amps, that's a pretty big spark and can set things on fire.
Well, not exactly. The controller does not completely remove power from the heating element. The controller is turning a Solid-State Relay (SSR) on and off very rapidly. It only is interrupting one of the wires feeding the heating element (the black one typically, but it really doesn't matter electrically which one). The other wire (red, typically) is fully connected to the power source and the heating element all the time. By using a double pole switch like I linked earlier, you put both the black and red wires through the switch, and both are opened whenever the switch is turned off. This is a complete removal of all power to the heating element; the SSR from the controller is only removing one, and SSR's tend to fail "ON" so it's best to have a physical disconnect that removes both "hot" wires. This all assumes you are working with 240V power as it's set up in the United States, so if you are using 120V or live somewhere else with a different type of household power, then it changes. Again, it's best if you know how this works before you start messing with it.
Another safety thing I failed to mention: Use a GFCI to protect you. GFCI protection can be done with 240V power, but it's a little more complicated than just installing a GFCI outlet for 120V. GFCI's are a last resort form of protection, but to me, it's critical: we are dealing with home-built equipment, high electrical currents, and water all mixed together.
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DexterBrewing
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Thanks for your advice again.
Pre-built controllers are just so expensive, and in my experience there isn't really anyone out there prepared to assemble one with parts I provide due to the insurance required of something so bespoke.
My plan would be to research as much as possible, take my time and built it myself. Then as my experience is so limited I'm going to try and take my completed control panel to a professional who I'm hoping would be able to take a look at it and give me some assurance that its not going to cause any harm.
Looking forward to getting the steam condenser built, its a really cool idea.
Pre-built controllers are just so expensive, and in my experience there isn't really anyone out there prepared to assemble one with parts I provide due to the insurance required of something so bespoke.
My plan would be to research as much as possible, take my time and built it myself. Then as my experience is so limited I'm going to try and take my completed control panel to a professional who I'm hoping would be able to take a look at it and give me some assurance that its not going to cause any harm.
Looking forward to getting the steam condenser built, its a really cool idea.
Here's an example of how to use the switch that @Wizard_of_Frobozz linked (Leviton 3032 or equivalent.) This is for a different PID, so the terminal assignments are likely different, but that shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
Any further discussion of this topic should be moved to a separate thread in the "Electric Brewing" forum, since it is off-topic in this thread.
Brew on
Any further discussion of this topic should be moved to a separate thread in the "Electric Brewing" forum, since it is off-topic in this thread.
Brew on
Not to beat a dead horse, but has anyone got a solid answer on when the steam-slayer will be back in stock? As far as I can tell they have been sold out for like 3 months now. When I inquired a month ago, I was told "any week now". Have they been built? Have they been shipped? Are they on the slow boat from China? Are they stuck in customs? Just looking for a timeframe. My build is coming together nicely and this is one of the final pieces to the puzzle, I really have no backup ventilation plans.
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I think they showed up yesterday, 21 in stock. Better act fast!!
Thanks for the heads up. 17 left in stock as on right now...
Edit: not to be a dick, but I did sign up for email notification when it was supposed to be back in stock but have not received any emails with such information.
It’s because the product name changed. He has 2 options now the original 1.5 and a new 2 inch version. The product name was Steamslayer before. Now it’s steamslayer15 . When he changed the name it basically deleted the old product and any requested reminders.
I had a reminder as well. Been watching the page for awhile now. I was getting close to building one myself but really wanted Bobby’s version. It’s the last thing I need to finally brew on my new electric system!!!
It seems like we have all been waiting, i too was expecting the email, but had the page added to my favorites, when i checked yesterday it had disappeared luckily i saw on here they were in stock and purchased.
Crap. I didnt think about the implications of the product code change. Sorry about that. Also, I have 100 units in stock but wanted a chance to catch up on the accessories before I run out.
Bobby M this wasnt meant as a dig, I appreciate everything you have done trying to get them back in stock. No need for apologies and thank you for all you do,
Luckily I had a bunch of stuff to order and a couple of them were out of stock, got those notifications and got my slayer ordered! Oh I cannot wait to get this thing fired up, thanks @Bobby_M!
SkunkFunkk
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Hey guys,
I've been reading this post for a few months now and I think you proved me that the steam condenser was a good idea,
I've seen peoples using a 2" version of the steam condenser on 30 gal kettles, I am buying some 50 gal kettles and, I wanted to know what were your thoughts about my dilemma : 2" or 2,5" ? 3"?
Thank to everyone for contributing to this nice forum, you taught me a lot about homebrewing
I've been reading this post for a few months now and I think you proved me that the steam condenser was a good idea,
I've seen peoples using a 2" version of the steam condenser on 30 gal kettles, I am buying some 50 gal kettles and, I wanted to know what were your thoughts about my dilemma : 2" or 2,5" ? 3"?
Thank to everyone for contributing to this nice forum, you taught me a lot about homebrewing
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The flow capacity of a pipe increases by a squared factor with an increasing diameter, so I would expect that 2.5" or 3" would suffice. Anecdotally, I've seen a few photos of small (maybe 5 barrel) commercial systems with what looked like comparatively diminutive 3-4" boil condenser piping.
I theorize that if you go too large on the piping, you will get condensation of steam before the condenser and you may get drip-back into the kettle. Also, the condensation of steam by water spray will not create a very good vacuum to pull more steam out if the piping diameter is too large. But I'm not sure at what piping diameter this would be a problem, lots of factors involved (BTU of steam, heat loss to piping, cooling water temp and flow, etc).
SkunkFunkk
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Thanks for your answer @ten80,
So if some people use a condenser of 3 or 4 on a 5bbl system i could go with only 2,5" steam slayer since 30 gal batch is only 1BBL?
I found some 2,5" TC Tees on https://www.glaciertanks.com/search.cgi and i am still trying to find the right nozzle for this diameter.
@Bobby_M
Hi, do you think your 2" steam slayer would be enough on a 50 gal kettle, i will brew 25 up to 30 gal batches, do you plan on commercialising a 2,5" or 3" steam slayer?
Should i have a more powerful nozzle than the people having a 2" Steamslayer on a 30 gal kettle?
Thank you guys
So if some people use a condenser of 3 or 4 on a 5bbl system i could go with only 2,5" steam slayer since 30 gal batch is only 1BBL?
I found some 2,5" TC Tees on https://www.glaciertanks.com/search.cgi and i am still trying to find the right nozzle for this diameter.
@Bobby_M
Hi, do you think your 2" steam slayer would be enough on a 50 gal kettle, i will brew 25 up to 30 gal batches, do you plan on commercialising a 2,5" or 3" steam slayer?
Should i have a more powerful nozzle than the people having a 2" Steamslayer on a 30 gal kettle?
Thank you guys
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OP
OP
It’s not the size of the kettle that determines the size of the condenser... it is the boil-off rate and spray water temp. So we could assume your boil-off rate of 6% of 40 gals. Would be 2.4 gals/hour. Is that about right? What is the water temp?
SkunkFunkk
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@BrunDog
Hey, i am currently sourcing the different parts for my new brewry, i ordered some 1BBL spike brewing kettles, should i wait until i receive the kettles before I order the different parts for the steam slayer ?
I actually dont know the boiloff rate and my water temperature, I am starting a new project\pilot brewry..
I will check my water temperature tomorrow, I dont have a thermometer right now, i would say its pretty cold in the winter and can get up to 60f during the winter,
We have very cold winter \ hot summers in Montreal
Hey, i am currently sourcing the different parts for my new brewry, i ordered some 1BBL spike brewing kettles, should i wait until i receive the kettles before I order the different parts for the steam slayer ?
I actually dont know the boiloff rate and my water temperature, I am starting a new project\pilot brewry..
I will check my water temperature tomorrow, I dont have a thermometer right now, i would say its pretty cold in the winter and can get up to 60f during the winter,
We have very cold winter \ hot summers in Montreal
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OP
OP
There is a calculator I posted a while back in this thread - you can use this to determine the rough sprayer flow needed.
Skunkfunk:
Since you are in the process of ordering your kettles, I would have Spike weld in a 2" triclover ferrule on the side of your boil kettle (as close to the top as possible) or on the lid. Then pick the sprayer nozzle needed based on your anticipated boil off rate. I used to have a 1 barrel system and I typically boiled off about 3 gallons per hour - about 7-8% evaporation rate. My preboil volumes were 39-41 gallons depending how long I boiled. BrunDog's estimates of 40 gal preboil volume and 2.4 gal/hr boil off are very close to my real world experience.
Since you are in the process of ordering your kettles, I would have Spike weld in a 2" triclover ferrule on the side of your boil kettle (as close to the top as possible) or on the lid. Then pick the sprayer nozzle needed based on your anticipated boil off rate. I used to have a 1 barrel system and I typically boiled off about 3 gallons per hour - about 7-8% evaporation rate. My preboil volumes were 39-41 gallons depending how long I boiled. BrunDog's estimates of 40 gal preboil volume and 2.4 gal/hr boil off are very close to my real world experience.
SkunkFunkk
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@stevehaun So you think 2" is enough for a steam slayer ?
i was planning to ask them to weld it, that's why I was asking your opinion about the diameter of the T connector i had to buy.
i was planning to ask them to weld it, that's why I was asking your opinion about the diameter of the T connector i had to buy.
My gut feeling (no data) is that 2” will work. I currently do 10 gal batches using a 1.5” steam condenser. I use the 6 gph nozzle. You will obviously need a nozzle with greater flow. Perhaps someone with bigger batch experience will comment here.
Derry
Member
To BrunDog and all the contributors to this thread, I wanted to thank you for the great idea, concept and advice that allowed me to bring down the steam level to zero on my 400liters (3 BBL?) electric brewery.
I have upgraded the device to 4”, welding a 4” clamp on the top of my boiler (closed with a 18” manhole on top). A couple of elbows, tees, reducers later and it was good to go. I used a full cone 90° spraying nozzle.
The device works very well on steam. For my case, I will need to adjust the position of the spraying nozzle as some water is flowing back to the boiler (I noticed that running a test before steam is produced, I cannot perform a visual check once the tank is full of steam, therefore not sure if it’s the case with steam pressure). For the time being, the tip of the nozzle is 2” higher than the top of the Tee inlet. Doing the math, theoretically, at this height, the cone surface would be equal to the top of the tee inlet surface (4” diameter) therefore maximizing contact area (to the entire inner tube area)
Obviously, something is wrong withmy math, so I will tend to lower the nozzle tip, maybe by 2 or 4 inches.
Any thoughts or advice on this ?
Many thanks.
I have upgraded the device to 4”, welding a 4” clamp on the top of my boiler (closed with a 18” manhole on top). A couple of elbows, tees, reducers later and it was good to go. I used a full cone 90° spraying nozzle.
The device works very well on steam. For my case, I will need to adjust the position of the spraying nozzle as some water is flowing back to the boiler (I noticed that running a test before steam is produced, I cannot perform a visual check once the tank is full of steam, therefore not sure if it’s the case with steam pressure). For the time being, the tip of the nozzle is 2” higher than the top of the Tee inlet. Doing the math, theoretically, at this height, the cone surface would be equal to the top of the tee inlet surface (4” diameter) therefore maximizing contact area (to the entire inner tube area)
Obviously, something is wrong withmy math, so I will tend to lower the nozzle tip, maybe by 2 or 4 inches.
Any thoughts or advice on this ?
Many thanks.
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Have you tried measuring the amount of effluent produced? This may give you an idea how much is flowing back into the boiler.
Also: if you're getting similar post-boil amounts in the boiler, then that would suggest you're not getting any drain-back from the sprayer.
OP
OP
Sounds great. Pictures would help if you can post some up.
Derry
Member
My boil off rate is lower but it was expected. What is less cool, is the fact that tap water (of the nozzle) may flow back to the boiler.
I do not know if my original post was clear. The only issue is not steam related. When tested in the early stage of the boiling process, part of the sprinkled water seemed to flow back to the boiler, thus questioning the nozzle position.
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Derry
Member
Sure will do.
If I may, as the owner of this great idea, what do you believe is the best position for the nozzle in a 4” setting?
Just on top of the Tee inlet hole? In the middle of the tee inlet?
Thanks
OP
OP
I honestly don't think it is that critical. Ideally, you would like the spray cone to land just below the entrance to the tee to prevent that water from spraying back into your kettle. But a inch or two deeper will not any difference in terms of performance.
But you also asked if it would flow back when under steam pressure, which is what my response was directed to. You said you couldn't tell when full of steam; my comments were to suggest a way to determine whether there is flowback when under steam.
OP
OP
With steam or without, if the sprayer sprays into the inlet tube, it is too high.
As I was reading this entire thread yesterday (thank you all! this will be part of my future build at home) I noted with interest the comments about the temperature of the discharge relative to the rating of the drain pipes it's going to. This morning Facebook reminded me of a post I made there two years ago on this subject, thus reminding me where to find this picture.
The severely bent PVC pipes pictured below are from the bottom of a three bay sink in a brewery I worked for. I was called in to re-plumb the sink drains. They directed the discharge from their plate chiller into one bay of the sink and failed to add any cold water flow to temper the discharge to a level safe for the pipes. There was around 150 feet of damaged pipe throughout the building. This was a 3 barrel brew house.
It started as sagging wherever the pipe was poorly supported. Eventually those sags grew heavier with trapped hot water and the sagging accelerated. Then glue joints began to fail. The landlord installed new pipe on a shorter path to the drain, not because anyone noticed the sagging (as far as I know, nobody but me has noticed to this day), they did it to stop the flooding every time the glue failed in the tenant space next door. Soon the new pipe path was sagging too.
If your condenser is discharging at temps above the 140°F rating for PVC pipe, please consider increasing spray rate or adding cold water to temper the discharge below 140°F. You don't want the expense of replacing all the pipe in your walls or under the floor.
Someone here noted that we don't worry about pouring the boiling water from a pot of spaghetti down the sink. True enough. But that pot of spaghetti water quickly runs down the drain and contact time with any one spot in the pipe is relatively low. With the condenser discharge, the volume may be low, but the contact time is high.
One other note, you really shouldn't connect the discharge hose directly to any pipe, or even the side of a sink. There should be an air gap so contaminants can't back up into your boil kettle. I agree that most of what's been posted here would never be an issue, but some of the hard pipe connections certainly could be.
The severely bent PVC pipes pictured below are from the bottom of a three bay sink in a brewery I worked for. I was called in to re-plumb the sink drains. They directed the discharge from their plate chiller into one bay of the sink and failed to add any cold water flow to temper the discharge to a level safe for the pipes. There was around 150 feet of damaged pipe throughout the building. This was a 3 barrel brew house.
It started as sagging wherever the pipe was poorly supported. Eventually those sags grew heavier with trapped hot water and the sagging accelerated. Then glue joints began to fail. The landlord installed new pipe on a shorter path to the drain, not because anyone noticed the sagging (as far as I know, nobody but me has noticed to this day), they did it to stop the flooding every time the glue failed in the tenant space next door. Soon the new pipe path was sagging too.
If your condenser is discharging at temps above the 140°F rating for PVC pipe, please consider increasing spray rate or adding cold water to temper the discharge below 140°F. You don't want the expense of replacing all the pipe in your walls or under the floor.
Someone here noted that we don't worry about pouring the boiling water from a pot of spaghetti down the sink. True enough. But that pot of spaghetti water quickly runs down the drain and contact time with any one spot in the pipe is relatively low. With the condenser discharge, the volume may be low, but the contact time is high.
One other note, you really shouldn't connect the discharge hose directly to any pipe, or even the side of a sink. There should be an air gap so contaminants can't back up into your boil kettle. I agree that most of what's been posted here would never be an issue, but some of the hard pipe connections certainly could be.
Derry
Member
Correct.
I did some sketches that enabled me to understand my mistake.
You may find below the boiler tank and condenser overall sketch as well as a detailed one of the condenser + nozzle position.
I initially went for a 90° full cone nozzle and installed it 2 inches upper the tee inlet, therefore option 1 in the above sketch. As you may see it, it is simply mathematical that it would spray in the inlet tube. ugh!
Ideal option is option 3, but I am afraid it won’t be efficient in my 4” setting. A lot of steam will get through between inlet and nozzle.
In order to get it right, I need to go for option 3 but with a 60° cone nozzle. This way I will be able to position the nozzle just at the inlet of the tee and still yield option 3 optimal spraying result.
Gravitysucks
Well-Known Member
If you look at the condensers used in large breweries you'll see the nozzles are mounted quite low in the discharge tube.
Can you explain what you mean by an "Air gap?"
OP
OP
Don't sweat your efficiency concern. Go with option 3 - the condensation creates a local vacuum that pulls steam in.
Regarding the spray angle - what you do not want is spray water hitting the walls of the tube - that water is not condensing steam nearly as much and is effectively wasted. Perhaps a 60 degree pattern is better then.
Derry
Member
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