Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

Yakima 728
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rkhanso said:
That just doesn't work. I've tried it. I wish it did work.
It's either too long of a run to generate the vacuum, or maybe my floor isn't level or sloping down as it goes out and I lose the air gap. I lose suction/vacuum and the condenser stops working.
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As long as its sloping downward and never goes up an incline it should be fine to drain distances. You might try taking a 2x4 or something and elevating it at the brewery end and run the hose along that to ensure a downward slope the whole way.
 
Wagon_6 said:
Anybody hear when Bobby might have the steam slayer back in stock?
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Dang I just bought it on maybe Thursday last week and got it yesterday, it's a custom part so I'm sure there is production needed. You can set an email alert for the product and you get it right when it comes into stock.
 
Any ideas why this isn’t working for me? I’ve got the whole setup down almost exactly the way it’s described here, but my system isn’t pulling any steam out. Waste water is cold. Only 10 degrees above ambient. Could I have the sprayer positioned wrong? It’s just slightly below the midpoint of the tee.
 
Lumpyyyyy said:
Any ideas why this isn’t working for me? I’ve got the whole setup down almost exactly the way it’s described here, but my system isn’t pulling any steam out. Waste water is cold. Only 10 degrees above ambient. Could I have the sprayer positioned wrong? It’s just slightly below the midpoint of the tee.
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Be sure that the end of the output hose isn't submerged in water, and be sure if you're draining it on an angle that there isn't a pooling of water blocking the hose.

Is your lid reasonably tight on the kettle? It doesn't need to be hermetically sealed, just set down square on the kettle.

Since you're not getting any heat through there that suggests either a blockage in the hose, or the lid is not sitting square enough to drive steam into the steamcatcher.
 
mongoose33 said:
Be sure that the end of the output hose isn't submerged in water, and be sure if you're draining it on an angle that there isn't a pooling of water blocking the hose.

Is your lid reasonably tight on the kettle? It doesn't need to be hermetically sealed, just set down square on the kettle.

Since you're not getting any heat through there that suggests either a blockage in the hose, or the lid is not sitting square enough to drive steam into the steamcatcher.
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Yup. The line was too long causing it to back up where it sagged. I cut it shorter to remove slack and that solved it instantly.

EDIT: After doing so, the condensate fluid was nearly 200F, I reduced my boil percentage from 75% duty to 50% and it dropped to 120F. Still operating at about 1 gal/hr boil off so no worries there I suppose.
 
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ancientmariner52 said:
If you start with BrunDog's post #1 I think you'll find what you need. Maybe not the actual components that would be available in UK, but certainly enough info to design your own system. Good luck!
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Thanks

What are people using for the feed pipe and the fitting through the top cap?

Anyone know where you can get a suitable spray nozzle in the UK/EU?
 
This might be a numpty question but if you are capturing all the steam why is the boil off rate lower?

With a lower boil off rate doesnt that mean that some steam must be condensing on the lid and returning to the wort which I thought was a no no?
 
RidleyRumpus said:
This might be a numpty question but if you are capturing all the steam why is the boil off rate lower?

With a lower boil off rate doesnt that mean that some steam must be condensing on the lid and returning to the wort which I thought was a no no?
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I think this is a fair question, and I am not sure that I can fully answer it, other than generalizing that both heat and steam escape an open boil kettle, but with a closed lid, the heat is contained while the steam escapes. Stated differently, with the lid closed, the only volume leaving is the steam, while with the lid open, ambient air also comes in to replace escaping steam, extracting the heat.

During my initial experiments, I was worried that adequate steam (and volatiles as a result) would not be removed, but I think this has been proven not to be a concern. Needing less heat is a significant benefit in my opinon - less power (and local heating) into the wort should ultimately stress is less. Plus, saving power is never a bad thing in my opinion.
 
BrunDog said:
I think this is a fair question, and I am not sure that I can fully answer it, other than generalizing that both heat and steam escape an open boil kettle, but with a closed lid, the heat is contained while the steam escapes. Stated differently, with the lid closed, the only volume leaving is the steam, while with the lid open, ambient air also comes in to replace escaping steam, extracting the heat.

During my initial experiments, I was worried that adequate steam (and volatiles as a result) would not be removed, but I think this has been proven not to be a concern. Needing less heat is a significant benefit in my opinon - less power (and local heating) into the wort should ultimately stress is less. Plus, saving power is never a bad thing in my opinion.
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I think this is substantially correct, except that you really can't consider steam and heat as seperate substances. The heat is contained in the steam. When you put the lid on, less heat/steam is allowed to leave the system, and you will have a boil-over unless you reduce the firing rate, that is, turn down the fire or the electric element to maintain the balance between heat entering and heat leaving.

The DMS precursors we're needing to get rid of boil at a lower temperature than water, so they are still removed, along with the reduced volume of steam collected by the condenser. Some will condense on the lid and drip back, it is true. Over the course of our boil, that cycle will happen so many times that the bad stuff will be removed as surely as with open boiling, I think.

I've been trying to word an answer to this question since last night. My thermodynamics courses were a loooong time ago, I hope this all makes sense.
 
ancientmariner52 said:
I think this is substantially correct, except that you really can't consider steam and heat as seperate substances. The heat is contained in the steam. When you put the lid on, less heat/steam is allowed to leave the system, and you will have a boil-over unless you reduce the firing rate, that is, turn down the fire or the electric element to maintain the balance between heat entering and heat leaving.
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Heat certainly is transferred without the steam. Remember that heat transfers occurs via conduction, convection, and radiation. The radiation, for example, does not necessarily use steam medium as a conduit.
 
BrunDog said:
Heat certainly is transferred without the steam. Remember that heat transfers occurs via conduction, convection, and radiation. The radiation, for example, does not necessarily use steam medium as a conduit.
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That's absolutely true. I didn't want to go deeper down the rabbit hole than neccesary. Since putting a lid on doesn't have much effect on conduction or radiation, I didn't mention them. Convection is the only heat transfer mechanism that requires a working fluid such as steam. Steam without heat is just cool mist, is my point.
 
BrunDog said:
I think this is a fair question, and I am not sure that I can fully answer it, other than generalizing that both heat and steam escape an open boil kettle, but with a closed lid, the heat is contained while the steam escapes. Stated differently, with the lid closed, the only volume leaving is the steam, while with the lid open, ambient air also comes in to replace escaping steam, extracting the heat.

During my initial experiments, I was worried that adequate steam (and volatiles as a result) would not be removed, but I think this has been proven not to be a concern. Needing less heat is a significant benefit in my opinon - less power (and local heating) into the wort should ultimately stress is less. Plus, saving power is never a bad thing in my opinion.
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In my case, the boiloff rate is lower because i have the power turned down to about 30 percent, so instead of a vigorous boil I have more a simmer. It's not a function of the steam catcher, at full power that steam would have to go somewhere, and the steam catcher is where it would go.

The problem with full power and a covered kettle is a more violent/vigorous boil. That deposits hop residues on the sides of the kettle instead of in the wort where I want it. Further, in my case it'll start to come out of the lid, so it has to be dialed down.

Very early in this thread somewhere I noted that the effluent was very hot; the answer to that was to turn down the boil and voila! Much cooler effluent, and no issues with boiling over.

There is a current discussion amongst homebrewers that the "standard" advice of having a vigorous boil is being replaced by more of a simmer type of boil. The argument is the vigorous boil harms the wort due to excess heat. I'm not sure how to take that, as I don't think the wort can tell in a 212* boil whether it's a vigorous or relaxed boil--same temp.

But maybe with a vigorous boil the rising steam bubbles are hotter than they would be in a relaxed boil? Dunno.
 
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mongoose33 said:
In my case, the boiloff rate is lower because i have to power turned down to about 30 percent, so instead of a vigorous boil I have more a simmer. It's not a function of the steam catcher, at full power that steam would have to go somewhere, and the steam catcher is where it would go.

The problem with full power and a covered kettle is a more violent/vigorous boil. That deposits hop residues on the sides of the kettle instead of in the wort where I want it. Further, in my case it'll start to come out of the lid, so it has to be dialed down.

Very early in this thread somewhere I noted that the effluent was very hot; the answer to that was to turn down the boil and voila! Much cooler effluent, and no issues with boiling over.

There is a current discussion amongst homebrewers that the "standard" advice of having a vigorous boil is being replaced by more of a simmer type of boil. The argument is the vigorous boil harms the wort due to excess heat. I'm not sure how to take that, as I don't think the wort can tell in a 212* boil whether it's a vigorous or relaxed boil--same temp.

But maybe with a vigorous boil the rising steam bubbles are hotter than they would be in a relaxed boil? Dunno.
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I think the confusion might lie in the distinction between heat and temperature. Temp is a good measure of heat content right up to the boiling point. Then you have to pump in more and more heat energy to start the boiling, but the temperature doesn't change. How is that possible? Durned if I know, I've never understood it. But it's an observed fact. Latent heat of vaporization, it's called.

Anyway. Could it be that the more energetic water involved in vigorous boiling does something to the wort on the molecular level, without showing up on our thermometers? I dunno either.
 
I know this is a controversial topic... Boil intensity is one of those homebrew concepts which is taking time to evolve. Everybody feels satisfied by a hearty boil, but the reality is it degrades the wort. Remember that the boil's purpose is to volatilize undesirable chemicals and to isomerize hop oils - not cook the wort. We know (from science, not opinion), that heating wort detrimentally impacts it - so yes, a gentle simmer should be the target. Simmering is boiling, so the wort is indeed at max temp, ensuring the above are happening. Commercial breweries targe 4-6% boil-off and it is nearly impossible to achieve that with an open vessel. So I hope, this type of design ultimately helps us make better beer.

Anytime you close the kettle, you will retain more heat, which means you will have to lower the power. If you don't, you'll definitely have a crazy aggressive boil. The condenser seems to cut power requirements in roughly half - so anyone implementing should adjust accordingly. I'll also restate that at lower powers, power pulsing becomes more of an issue, so duty cycle lengths should be reduced (maybe 1 or 2 seconds max).
 
RidleyRumpus said:
This might be a numpty question but if you are capturing all the steam why is the boil off rate lower?

With a lower boil off rate doesnt that mean that some steam must be condensing on the lid and returning to the wort which I thought was a no no?
Click to expand...
ancientmariner52 said:
...

The DMS precursors we're needing to get rid of boil at a lower temperature than water, so they are still removed, along with the reduced volume of steam collected by the condenser. Some will condense on the lid and drip back, it is true. Over the course of our boil, that cycle will happen so many times that the bad stuff will be removed as surely as with open boiling, I think.

...
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DMS boils at ~100°F, and the lid and walls of your BK are going to be around 210°F. DMS will not condense on the interior surfaces, and will not return to the wort.

SMM, the DMS precursor, does not boil, but rather decomposes at boiling temps (and down to about 170°F.) The rate of decomp is highly temp dependent, and since boiling is as hot as you can get the wort, it gives the highest decomp rate. Once the SMM decomposes to DMS, the DMS wants to escape as fast as it can get to the surface of the liquid. Convection in the wort is the best way to get DMS to the surface, but you don't need a wild boil to get adequate convection.

Brew on :mug:
 
ancientmariner52 said:
That's absolutely true. I didn't want to go deeper down the rabbit hole than neccesary. Since putting a lid on doesn't have much effect on conduction or radiation, I didn't mention them. Convection is the only heat transfer mechanism that requires a working fluid such as steam. Steam without heat is just cool mist, is my point.
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This is where commonly used English breaks down.

When water boils it turns into water vapour which is invisible. The stuff you see is water that has already condensed into very fine droplets, condensing from vapour to liquid releases a huge amount of energy in the form of heat. This is how your fridge/air con etc work.

Now some people call steam the stuff you see and others say steam is water in its gaseous phase, which you cannot see.

A quick Google gives two different "definitions"
 
ancientmariner52 said:
I think the confusion might lie in the distinction between heat and temperature. Temp is a good measure of heat content right up to the boiling point. Then you have to pump in more and more heat energy to start the boiling, but the temperature doesn't change. How is that possible? Durned if I know, I've never understood it. But it's an observed fact. Latent heat of vaporization, it's called.

Anyway. Could it be that the more energetic water involved in vigorous boiling does something to the wort on the molecular level, without showing up on our thermometers? I dunno either.
Click to expand...

Temp is almost never a good measure of heat content.

(what has more heat energy a hot bath or an iceberg?)

When you are at the boil the energy you are adding goes to breaking the bond between the molecules. In order to do thus you need to add energy. Once the bonds are broken the water is in a gaseoes state, the bubles in boiling water are bubbles of water in the gaseous state.

When water condenses bonds reform and energy is released.

At the boil the temperature cannot change because all the energy is going into breaking the bonds thus stopping the temp rising.
 
RidleyRumpus said:
This is where commonly used English breaks down.

When water boils it turns into water vapour which is invisible. The stuff you see is water that has already condensed into very fine droplets, condensing from vapour to liquid releases a huge amount of energy in the form of heat. This is how your fridge/air con etc work.

Now some people call steam the stuff you see and others say steam is water in its gaseous phase, which you cannot see.

A quick Google gives two different "definitions"
Click to expand...
That visible mist may or may not be accompanied by a lot of very hot, dangerous steam. Heat energy is what makes the difference. I've hunted down 600 psi superheated steam leaks with a broom handle. The actual leak will be several feet away from where the mist cloud forms. Thank goodness we're only dealing with open systems here.

I'm talking about tiny pinhole leaks, of course. Anything much bigger, you just die.
 
ancientmariner52 said:
That visible mist may or may not be accompanied by a lot of very hot, dangerous steam. Heat energy is what makes the difference. I've hunted down 600 psi superheated steam leaks with a broom handle. The actual leak will be several feet away from where the mist cloud forms. Thank goodness we're only dealing with open systems here.

I'm talking about tiny pinhole leaks, of course. Anything much bigger, you just die.
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Yep it is the latent heat that is the danger with steam, huge amount of energy release as it condenses.
 
RidleyRumpus said:
This might be a numpty question but if you are capturing all the steam why is the boil off rate lower?

With a lower boil off rate doesnt that mean that some steam must be condensing on the lid and returning to the wort which I thought was a no no?
Click to expand...
Thinking out loud here. Without going into any of the math that @BrunDog did, I would expect that the condenser we are using can only escape a certain volume of steam and that a full rigorous boil with the lid off produces more steam than can be escaped by the condenser. He did mention that he is targeting a commercial boil off rate that is lower than the 10% a lot of homebrewers go by. If someone mounted 2 or 3 of these to their kettle could they effectively boil at their previous open lid wattage and get a 10% boil off rate? Not saying we should do that, but more of food for thought.
 
You could certainly do that. I also suspect that we are wasting a lot of condensing ability with the spray water not completely getting mixed with the steam. At some point the spray reaches the side wall of the tube, rendering it ineffective to condense and remove heat.
 
Wow, lots of thermodynamics talk since last weekend! Just checking in to close the loop on my experience.

So, this is my first "clean" brew of 3 attempts, meaning I solved my controller issue, avoiding any boilovers.

I also decided NOT to collect condensate for use as PBW cleaner, but instead trickle straight to laundry tub drain.

Odor was much more tolerable. House above smells like a brew day, slightly "cornier". My teenage daughter told me she really doesn't like the smell, but everyone else agreed better than last 2 weeks and seems cleared by evening.

I'll probably stick with this approach going forward, though I might swap to the 9 Gph, as this theoretically should dilute the DMS, reduce effluent temp, both should further reduce revolatilizing DMS upon exit of the slayer.
 
gromitdj said:
Any chance that will also include a 2" Weldless T.C.? I really want one for my element install!
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A 2" WL TC is in the works but it's going to be a ***** to install given the hole size required. I also have a pull through tool coming soon that will allow install of standard 2" TC ferrules. In any case, elements install through 1.5 TC well enough that I don't understand the desire for 2"
 
I’m brewing today and have ran a pvc drain ran to my sump pit and placed a flexible mesh carbon filter over the opening. I tested on a water boil last night and everything worked. I’m going to try this and if I do have much smell coming off my sump is right under a window so I rigged my old hood fan and some flexible hose to be able to exhaust anything coming from the sump pit. I’m hoping this solves the odor problem. I’ll report back.
 
Got my condenser installed today excited to give it a try. Right now I'm draining to a bucket with a hole in the lid, it's a snug fit so I'm hoping the smell won't be too bad.
 
Bobby_M said:
A 2" WL TC is in the works but it's going to be a ***** to install given the hole size required. I also have a pull through tool coming soon that will allow install of standard 2" TC ferrules. In any case, elements install through 1.5 TC well enough that I don't understand the desire for 2"
Click to expand...

Well, I've already purchased a 1 7/8" knockout punch to install the Still Dragon 2" WL TC, but would rather purchase one from you so I'm hoping its the same hole size. As to the why, I have future plans for another vessel that has a welded 2" TC that I would like to share the same element with.

A pull through soldered TC would work as well, I suppose.
 
cubsfan16 said:
Brew went well. Smell was much much better with it drained to my sump. I did run an exhaust fan with the flexible ductwork positioned next to the sump so I’m sure that helped. I’m just glad I have a hoodless low odor solution.
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this made me laugh a lil.
you ran a fan with duct work...... to avoid a fan with duct work!
ok, carry on guys, I keep coming back to see the final solution here.
 
NewJersey said:
this made me laugh a lil.
you ran a fan with duct work...... to avoid a fan with duct work!
ok, carry on guys, I keep coming back to see the final solution here.
Click to expand...

I have a window in the back of my basement that that is the same size as the window my hood was hooked up to above my kettle so I was able to remove the hood place the fan on the floor slide open the window and place my dryer vent totally out of site of my brewing area. So this solution works for me because I had the fan. I now don’t have a big crappy hood and duct work hanging over my brewery now which was why I added the condenser. With the fan, I can barely smell anything upstairs. Without the fan, and running the condensate to a drain 20’ away alone smelled like a normal brew day with my zymatic upstairs.
 
cubsfan16 said:
I have a window in the back of my basement that that is the same size as the window my hood was hooked up to above my kettle so I was able to remove the hood place the fan on the floor slide open the window and place my dryer vent totally out of site of my brewing area. So this solution works for me because I had the fan. I now don’t have a big crappy hood and duct work hanging over my brewery now which was why I added the condenser. With the fan, I can barely smell anything upstairs. Without the fan, and running the condensate to a drain 20’ away alone smelled like a normal brew day with my zymatic upstairs.
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oh yeah, i get it man. just kinda funny that you're still employing a fan with ductwork which the slayer was supposed to eliminate altogether. I do understand what's goin on and I assume a solution is coming anyways.
 
No, after I read it back it I can see your point. Lol. I was first thinking of not adding the fan as a variable to see what a full brew day would be like minus the fan but ending up saying screw it, I have it and it’s out of my way and easy.
 
I want to thank BrunDog for his steam condenser design. I don't have the luxury of a dry basement nor any place in my house where I could put a proper hood. I had considered using some kind of window insert but this looks like a much better solution. I'm looking forward to giving it a try if I ever get my panel done.

SteamCondenser1.jpg
 

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