Boil kettle condenser - no overhead ventilation needed

[schematix]

Another alternative might be to just capture the water and let it cool off in between brew days; at 9 gph, you will only need to store about 10 gallons. Run it through the condenser, collect the water, let it cool off for a few days, then repeat.

You are wasting the heat that way though. I think the “greenest” solution is to reuse the hot water for cleanup. That way, you are making use of both the water and heat.

That sounds like a great way to feed microorganisms. It's 9 gallons.... put it down the drain.

 

[BrunDog]

Ya totally agree. The water could be collected, let cooled, then re-used. That said, I don’t think this water is all that clean. It will have the boiled-off volatiles in it. I think you could recirculate it a couple of times but at some point it will have to be dumped. Or you could use it for first-round cleaning.

For me, and as noted above, 9 gallons is not a huge issue. I am sure I dump that much and more chilling.

 

[jonofthedead]

This is a great idea brundog, I am in Florida as well (st pete) and have slowly collecting all the pieces my an electric system but didn’t know what I was going to do with the exhaust as cutting holes in my garage wall would not make the Wife very happy!

Do you have that parts list? I would be interested in trying to put this system together to start testing myself!

 

[EJay]

Any reason at a homebrew scale we couldn't just make a port in the kettle top, and run the steam through something like an aluminum transmission cooler with a PC fan attached, and basically air-cool it, and not deal with water-cooling the steam? The little waterwise water purifiers are kinda like that and they are pretty effective at eliminating steam.

 

[cfrazier77]

Thank you for doing this experiment. I hope that it works out well with a pale lager. I would think that if the condenser created enough air flow then it would suck the DMS out before it could condensate on the lid.

However, it is not just cooling of the steam that is creating the airflow. I used to be a firefighter and we sometimes used hydraulic ventilation. We would set our fog nozzle to a 45 degree pattern and put it outside of an open window. The water flow would such the smoke out of the room. Your water spray pattern in the picture looks right on target. Well done sir.

 

[mcgeebc]

I’m wondering if some of the condensing assemblies that are made for all in one systems for distilling would work for eliminating steam during the boil. I have no interest in distilling, but am thinking of getting a grainfather or the Brewha BIAC. Would something like this do the same thing described in this thread?
https://brewhaequipment.com/collections/extras/products/condensing-assembly

 

[BrunDog]

Any reason at a homebrew scale we couldn't just make a port in the kettle top, and run the steam through something like an aluminum transmission cooler with a PC fan attached, and basically air-cool it, and not deal with water-cooling the steam? The little waterwise water purifiers are kinda like that and they are pretty effective at eliminating steam.

I think you can use a radiator but it will need to be sized to draw away enough heat. There is a lot of latent heat that needs be pulled out to convert steam to liquid. I would think the airflow restriction of an air-air heat exchanger might require a fan or air pump to pull the air/steam through also.

 

[EJay]

I think you can use a radiator but it will need to be sized to draw away enough heat. There is a lot of latent heat that needs be pulled out to convert steam to liquid. I would think the airflow restriction of an air-air heat exchanger might require a fan or air pump to pull the air/steam through also.

Yes, thats what I was thinking. I have a waterwise and I may just try to hook up its condenser to a ported kettle lid and see what happens. Granted, a watewise is a 1G system, but I should be able to tell from a test if I can hook it up. The water in that system goes in at boiling and comes out a little over room temp. It will definitely be worth the test.

It never occurred to me before this forum topic to try to condense the steam. I got kicked out of the kitchen over too much steam output so if I could reduce it, I can brew inside again. Beats brewing outside in the rainy season.

 

[BrunDog]

Thank you for doing this experiment. I hope that it works out well with a pale lager. I would think that if the condenser created enough air flow then it would suck the DMS out before it could condensate on the lid.

However, it is not just cooling of the steam that is creating the airflow. I used to be a firefighter and we sometimes used hydraulic ventilation. We would set our fog nozzle to a 45 degree pattern and put it outside of an open window. The water flow would such the smoke out of the room. Your water spray pattern in the picture looks right on target. Well done sir.

The liquid running out of the drain is very hot. That heat comes from the steam. So yes, the steam and volatiles in are are being drawn out. The percentage is likely fairly high, because the kettle lid cannot transfer off enough heat to condense large volumes of the steam. You could insulate the lid if that were a real concern.

As far as the hydraulic ventilation - there is probably some function of it occurring, though the drain is a fairly small diameter. A larger one would be better in this regard. Might be worthwhile to upgrade to a bigger nipple and tube.

 

[cfrazier77]

The liquid running out of the drain is very hot. That heat comes from the steam. So yes, the steam and volatiles in are are being drawn out. The percentage is likely fairly high, because the kettle lid cannot transfer off enough heat to condense large volumes of the steam. You could insulate the lid if that were a real concern.

As far as the hydraulic ventilation - there is probably some function of it occurring, though the drain is a fairly small diameter. A larger one would be better in this regard. Might be worthwhile to upgrade to a bigger nipple and tube.

It would be worth a test. The water would still cool the steam to its condensation point, but it would create overall more airflow.

 

[xico]

I am very interested in your progress with this. I love seeing people push the boundaries of homebrewing. Is there a way to get your beer analyzed? Do you know anyone who runs GC/MS or HPLC/MS for a living? My initial concern was what you mentioned, venting off the many precursors to unwanted flavors, DMS being the result of just one possibility.

One solution would be to keep a vigorous boil with no condensation system in the beginning perhaps?

Well done on the work and thank you for sharing!

 

[BrunDog]

I agree. One of the topics that cam up in discussion with a friend yesterday was something we were both thinking about independently... that mist atomization is as important or more important. I really need to try to qualify the atomization that occurs with the 6 gph vs the 9 gph sprayer. My anecdotal feeling is the 6 is finer. This may be related to the nozzle size and pressure used. Better performance might be better with a pump to elevate the pressure prior to being sprayed.

This may be chasing an unnecessary problem, but certainly more tests to learn and make this as effective as possible are in order.

 

[user 125772]

I was also thinking about this the other day concerning how it could be incorporated into a lid.
Brundog, was there some specific reason you put the port in the side of the kettle versus the lid? I like the simplicity of your design, but I couldn't sacrifice that 2" headroom in my BK without taking a hit in my batch size.

 

[BrunDog]

Great question. I put it in the side because I do take the lid on and off often enough and felt the hardware built into it would make it cumbersome. My kettle stays mounted as I CIP so this made logical sense for me. But higher is always better for both kettle volume and steam capture.

One side benefit (pun intended) of putting it on the kettle is this design eliminates the chance of a boil-over. Should one happen, that foaming wort will go through the drain! I personally use fermcap religiously so it’s never an issue, but it’s a safety I guess.

Putting it on the side made part selection easy, as a 2” TC tee is easy to get. A sweeping 180 tube is harder to come by and likely much more expensive.

All that said, no reason you couldn’t easily put something like this on the lid.

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

Sorry I'm sure you're getting bombarded with questions since this came out in that newsletter but any reason why you don't just use a normal lid? Was it to just see inside for the experiment?

 

[kal]

Electric brewing pioneers like Kal came up with an overhead ventilation system consisting of a hood and fan which generally work well.

I can't take credit for that... That goes to whomever invented condensate hoods for use in restaurants (usually over dish washer sinks) or even just simple stove hoods.

Kal

 

[BrunDog]

Sorry I'm sure you're getting bombarded with questions since this came out in that newsletter but any reason why you don't just use a normal lid? Was it to just see inside for the experiment?

I only used plastic wrap for the test so that I could "see" the steam escaping (it didn't work). A lid would be normally used.

 

[BrunDog]

I can't take credit for that... That goes to whomever invented condensate hoods for use in restaurants (usually over dish washer sinks) or even just simple stove hoods.

Kal

You still get credit for being an electrical brewing pioneer!

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

I only used plastic wrap for the test so that I could "see" the steam escaping (it didn't work). A lid would be normally used.

That's what I figured. I'm definitely going to be implementing this in my home brewery as I just moved and there is no convenient spot for a high powered ventilation hood without significant remodel/work.

 

[Siouxerbrewer]

I would be curious to see how this preforms in reducing the DMS. I think a good test would be to brew a Helles and see if you can taste cooked corn. Again awesome work Brundog!

 

[BrunDog]

Thanks. I will continue to report. Going to do a lager next so may have a sense from that.

 

[TheLostBeer]

Any reason at a homebrew scale we couldn't just make a port in the kettle top, and run the steam through something like an aluminum transmission cooler with a PC fan attached, and basically air-cool it, and not deal with water-cooling the steam? The little waterwise water purifiers are kinda like that and they are pretty effective at eliminating steam.

This is the same idea I said earlier on, based on the same idea as distillers, tho would have to figure out how big of opening you would need so the flow is not restricted.

 

[BrunDog]

Yes it absolutely could work. But you can’t haphazardly just add any radiator. You have to size it large enough to pull out the heat. There is a good chunk of heat which needs be pulled from 213 degree vapor to condense it back to 211 degree liquid.

 

[GreenMonti]

Should need about an 8,000 BTU per hour capacity to just handle the phase change.


Edit:
BrunDog,
Very cool project!! One of these will be going on my setup real soon. Like, before next brew day. Thank you for blazing the trail!!
Looks like your 6 GPH spray nozzle puts you right where you need to be for the phase change if you have 50 degree input water.

With your pressure not being what the spray nozzle needs, do you fall short on the 6 gallons in an hour?

 

[paledragon]

Anyone have thoughts on the fogging nozzles on McMaster? They only come in brass, but produce a finer spray, potentially with better heat transfer.

 

[HumulusHead]

I too wonder if the fogging nozzle will work better?

Also, I feel that the DMS issue may not be a huge deal IF you can truly create a vacuum. I guess personally I do not brew lagers so the DMS does not worry me as much, but I still want to exhaust nearly as much steam as you would during a normal boil (i.e. lid off etc). No science behind this on my end, but I feel that if you can create a good vacuum, that the evaporation rate should be relatively the same.

To create a good vacuum though, I would think you may need to seal the lid to the top of the BK somehow?

Also, do you think it makes a difference whether the end of the outlet hose is submerged or above water?

I fully intend on experimenting with this with my keggle setup. I recently purchased a super cheap range hood with 190 cfm fan, and was highly disappointed. I figured the fan was undersized, but even then it wouldn't move any steam at all, it just all condensates on the hood. It may work if I add a larger fan (6" inline or similar), but this method you outline is much more appealing to me.

I will post with results once I acquire all of the pieces. At this point I am debating between the larger misting nozzle (9.3? gph) or the fogging nozzle.

 

[BrunDog]

Fogging nozzle is fine, but remember you need the volume of water to absorb the heat. So both atomization and heat capacity must be considered.

I don't see the need for a perfect seal. In my tests, there is very little steam escaping the lid when it is running, but the steam comes out heavy past the lid when I turn it off. Certainly a gasket could block the small remainder.

I did see when the drain was submerged that more steam came from under the lid, so that bit of airflow is important.

 

[HumulusHead]

I probably am overthinking things...

I guess I wasn't worried about losing steam through the lid as much as I was worried about a loose lid being a vacuum breaker. I feel that if it was sealed air tight, then the vacuum through the condenser would be much stronger?

Either way I am going to try it and experiment.

I did see that some of the fogging nozzles do have flows closer to 7-8 gph if I remember correctly. Though they are twice the cost...

Yesterday I spent a few hours trying to devise a different piping system, but your Tee idea really seems to be the best combination of economy/quality.

Thank you for your inspiration!! This is exactly what my setup needs!!

 

[BeardedBrews]

Also, outside of aesthetics, any reason this couldn't be assembled out of PVC?


(edit - lid question answered earlier in the thread)
Would a system like this work coming out of the lid instead of through the wall of the kettle?

 

[BrunDog]

I don't know if an air tight seal will make it better. Would need to test it. My trial test used plastic wrap and that had a good seal. You can see the vacuum created with it, but again I can't claim more is more.

You might use an instrument tee as the tee section is shorter.