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evrose

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I like to call this the Starbucks syndrome, now that Starbucks is evil everyone jumps ship to Dutch Brothers....so at what point does DB become the evil giant thanks to it's supporters?
Yup.... once upon a time, Starbucks was a hip, trendy, small specialty coffee place in Seattle. Now it's evil (according to this line of logic).

Same with Walmart.

And Microsoft.

And Apple.

And Google. (no, wait, their slogan is "don't be evil", so they are okay.)

And... and... and... and...
 

roastquake

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What's wrong with selling part of your business to a bigger business to get more distribution channels, thus more sales, AND you get to brew the same craft beer? Goose Island isn't being forced to brew swill! It's a win-win for both companies AND the consumer who (at least in my area) can now go to the grocery store and choose from a larger selection of craft beer. just my 2 cents, I'd still rather buy from New Belgium for their sustainability practices
 

NewJersey

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I live in New Jersey and we have a handful of good breweries here. (nothing in comparison to san diego. i was there last week and that is beer nerd heaven)
Its pretty hard to find Kane, Carton, or River Horse on tap at bars. i have an incredible liquor store in my town that carries or will get you literally anything you want. (if theyre not gonna carry it, they make you buy a case)
i would like to be able to go to my local bars and have more choices than the usual bud/bud lt/mil lt/yuongling/angry orhcard/heineken/summer shandy/sam/sam seasonal/goose island honkers ale/magic hat 9/and a long trail if we're lucky. some version of this is what every bar carries. we have a couple beer bars, but theyre far and few between. this is due to the system that BMC controls with distribution and it sucks. if youre a brewer and you want your beer toi be picked up by a distributor you have next to no chance.
 

Yooper

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Yup.... once upon a time, Starbucks was a hip, trendy, small specialty coffee place in Seattle. Now it's evil (according to this line of logic).

Same with Walmart.

And Microsoft.

And Apple.

And Google. (no, wait, their slogan is "don't be evil", so they are okay.)

And... and... and... and...
I think for most of us with ethical reasons to not shop at certain places don't see "large" as "evil". Large companies exist, and that in itself doesn't make them unethical.

I think to take the giant leap that people who have moral convictions about things they buy just are too stupid to know that large doesn't equal evil is a great insult to those who make the choice.

I don't buy clothing from sweatshops in Malaysia, palm oil because of the deforestation, items from Wal-Mart due to its business practices, etc. It's not because a company is large. It can be a small company that I don't support due to its business practices.

To be so snide as to suggest that it's simply fear and loathing of large corporations and not a moral conviction is demeaning and insulting. I'm an educated person, and choose to not spend my dollars supporting things that go against my moral beliefs. I don't slam others for making their own choices, especially educated choices.

Let's not demean others who make other choices.
 

evrose

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I think for most of us with ethical reasons to not shop at certain places don't see "large" as "evil". Large companies exist, and that in itself doesn't make them unethical.

I think to take the giant leap that people who have moral convictions about things they buy just are too stupid to know that large doesn't equal evil is a great insult to those who make the choice.

I don't buy clothing from sweatshops in Malaysia, palm oil because of the deforestation, items from Wal-Mart due to its business practices, etc. It's not because a company is large. It can be a small company that I don't support due to its business practices.

To be so snide as to suggest that it's simply fear and loathing of large corporations and not a moral conviction is demeaning and insulting. I'm an educated person, and choose to not spend my dollars supporting things that go against my moral beliefs. I don't slam others for making their own choices, especially educated choices.

Let's not demean others who make other choices.
Boy... that escalated quickly.

Sigh--- I wasn't saying a single thing about people who make informed decisions. But there's no denying that there is a certain "anti-big-company" attitude that has become pervasive in America. It's there. References to Big Pharma , Big Auto, Big BMC, Big XYZ, Big Whatever, are all over the place (always with a negative implication).

You make informed decisions... good for you. Many people don't. Many people (maybe more where I live) see anything Big as automatically suspect and Bad. Except Big Government - which is always looking out for the Little Guy. Maybe it's because I live in a heavily Blue state filled with anti-capitalist nutjobs... of which there are fewer in the UP. Who knows.

Anyhow, you read more in to my comment than I was thinking.

Now, pardon me while I go put on a Malaysian knit sweater, make a palm oil stir-fry, and browse through the WalMart website for some cheap Chinese-made kitch... while sipping a double-half-caf, no-whip, Starbucks Frappalattechino.... Um... you can barely taste the self-righteousness.
 

signpost

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I think for most of us with ethical reasons to not shop at certain places don't see "large" as "evil". Large companies exist, and that in itself doesn't make them unethical.

I think to take the giant leap that people who have moral convictions about things they buy just are too stupid to know that large doesn't equal evil is a great insult to those who make the choice.

I don't buy clothing from sweatshops in Malaysia, palm oil because of the deforestation, items from Wal-Mart due to its business practices, etc. It's not because a company is large. It can be a small company that I don't support due to its business practices.

To be so snide as to suggest that it's simply fear and loathing of large corporations and not a moral conviction is demeaning and insulting. I'm an educated person, and choose to not spend my dollars supporting things that go against my moral beliefs. I don't slam others for making their own choices, especially educated choices.

Let's not demean others who make other choices.
Right on!
 

signpost

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Also, I think too many people treat capitalism as a religion.

If Ayn Randism eventually takes over, as many want it to, I'll will undoubtedly be living more than 2 standard deviations from the norm. And happily so.
 

Nightshade

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I think for most of us with ethical reasons to not shop at certain places don't see "large" as "evil". Large companies exist, and that in itself doesn't make them unethical.

I think to take the giant leap that people who have moral convictions about things they buy just are too stupid to know that large doesn't equal evil is a great insult to those who make the choice.

I don't buy clothing from sweatshops in Malaysia, palm oil because of the deforestation, items from Wal-Mart due to its business practices, etc. It's not because a company is large. It can be a small company that I don't support due to its business practices.

To be so snide as to suggest that it's simply fear and loathing of large corporations and not a moral conviction is demeaning and insulting. I'm an educated person, and choose to not spend my dollars supporting things that go against my moral beliefs. I don't slam others for making their own choices, especially educated choices.

Let's not demean others who make other choices.
While I see your point I also have met and known a lot of "bandwagon haters" who dislike a company because it is the cool thing to do but when you question them they have no real idea why aside from repeating "facts" they saw on a meme posted to Facebook, or some such tripe. This is where the idea of hating a company just because they are the giant that must fall next becomes a fact of life for a strong number rather than any real convictions.

All that aside I give you much respect for living by your convictions and both understanding them and the ability to state them clearly when confronted:mug:
 

signpost

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I'm so glad that Sierra Nevada, Dogfish, Boston, etc. give away their beer for free and have no interest in all at turning a profit. ;)
Ah, selective quoting. Here's what I actually wrote. Read it. Yeah, the WHOLE sentence.

The idea that turning a profit trumps morals is maybe a capitalist ideal, but I sure as hell don't think it is a virtue.
I never said turning a profit is a bad thing. Nobody would start a business if they weren't interested in a profit to some extent. What I do think is a bad thing is the way that turning a profit is held higher than any other value by so many people that defend less than friendly business practices.

Turning a profit is a good thing. But there are many other good things as well. I start having a problem with businesses when those other good things are thrown out in service of making a profit.
 

kaconga

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If your defense of BMC is "it's capitalism, deal with it." Then I wonder how we could ever better ourselves. As a system, capitalism has its flaws. Acknowledging these flaws and attempting to not reward companies who exploit them is not about hating capitalism. For me it is about standing up for a belief that people can be more than selfish money grubbing jerks. Not saying any of you fit that description. I just think having ideals is not ignorant. If any company behaves in a way I find contradictory to my beliefs then I avoid buying from them.
 

Pratzie

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If your defense of BMC is "it's capitalism, deal with it." Then I wonder how we could ever better ourselves. As a system, capitalism has its flaws. Acknowledging these flaws and attempting to not reward companies who exploit them is not about hating capitalism. For me it is about standing up for a belief that people can be more than selfish money grubbing jerks. Not saying any of you fit that description. I just think having ideals is not ignorant. If any company behaves in a way I find contradictory to my beliefs then I avoid buying from them.
And then theres the other end of ur last sentence. Take Chick-Fil-A for example. They haven't seen a decline in business since their CEO's Sanctity of Marriage comment. They even saw a huge influx in business afterwards with the Support Chick-Fil-A Day. This while the majority of the country is agreement with and approves of gay marriage.
 

mcangeli

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If you like it Drink it. I like coke. I drink coke. I can't drink pepsi (unless there is a good amount of rum in it...) I don't drink pepsi.

I will drink Budwiser, I won't drink bud light, coors light or the bud light lime...

Corporations aren't evil. The people running the corporations, yes....
 

roastquake

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And then theres the other end of ur last sentence. Take Chick-Fil-A for example. They haven't seen a decline in business since their CEO's Sanctity of Marriage comment. They even saw a huge influx in business afterwards with the Support Chick-Fil-A Day. This while the majority of the country is agreement with and approves of gay marriage.
Along with gay rights, I also support the marriage of breaded chicken and hot oil
 

dpatrickv

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I have read a lot of people say they will not touch a BMC beer. Is there a reason for this? One of my favorite beers is Ranger IPA from New Belgium (aka Coors).

I say if it tastes good, drink it.
Uh....wut?

No.
 

Gameface

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So there have been several comments that have said they don't like BMCs, or AB InBevs business practices, but what is it about their business practices that are bad? Honest question.

Just because one company produces 80% of the beer on the grocery store shelf it doesn't mean our choices are being limited. Budweiser has been offering a greater selection in response to the demands of the consumer. Plus, there is WAY more variety at my grocery store than there ever has been, and it's getting better all the time. If this is an example of Budweiser keeping the little guy down they are doing a horrible job.

Many act like the only reason anyone drinks Budweiser is because they've been tricked into it. I have news for you guys, some people like it. Those same people often don't like the micro brews we cherish.

If people stopped wanting Budweiser products Budweiser would die, three-tier system, shelf space domination and all.

How easy is it to start a nono airline or an independent TV network? Yet we bitch because every homebrewer with aspirations of going pro can't just get their beer on the grocery store shelf...
 

kaconga

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So there have been several comments that have said they don't like BMCs, or AB InBevs business practices, but what is it about their business practices that are bad? Honest question.

Just because one company produces 80% of the beer on the grocery store shelf it doesn't mean our choices are being limited. Budweiser has been offering a greater selection in response to the demands of the consumer. Plus, there is WAY more variety at my grocery store than there ever has been, and it's getting better all the time. If this is an example of Budweiser keeping the little guy down they are doing a horrible job.
The Coors 9 pack is a great example. It makes no sense to do a 9 pack other than to eat up shelf space. Space that could otherwise be occupied by some local craft beers. I love the fact that most people dislike hopped up IPAs because it means more for me. I don't love it when a good beer gets the boot so people can buy a 6, 9 or 12 pack of the same beer.

Another example, while older, is killians Irish red. When it was originally produced it was an ale. First thing they did when they bought it out was change it to a lager. The average person probably wouldn't care but we who know the difference should find that sort of thing a little off putting if nothing else. At least in my opinion.
 
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TwoHeart

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All I'm sayin is that I love Ranger IPA.

And I'm glad they aren't owned by Coors... thought I heard they did somewhere, probably after too many rangers.
 

DrunkleJon

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Just because one company produces 80% of the beer on the grocery store shelf it doesn't mean our choices are being limited. Budweiser has been offering a greater selection in response to the demands of the consumer. Plus, there is WAY more variety at my grocery store than there ever has been, and it's getting better all the time. If this is an example of Budweiser keeping the little guy down they are doing a horrible job.

Many act like the only reason anyone drinks Budweiser is because they've been tricked into it. I have news for you guys, some people like it. Those same people often don't like the micro brews we cherish.
This. Many many times this. As backup to this, look at threads such as the "funny things you have heard about your beer" one. The vast majority of American beer drinkers prefer the light yellow fizzy lagers. Hence the reason the unwashed masses think a beer is super strong if it is dark (Guinness anyone?).

The light macro-lagers still take getting used to for budding beer drinkers. I remember my first couple beers had to be choked down because the taste was not quite for me. Then I had to work my way up to the more craft options, and now am experimenting with the more extreme flavored ones like DIPA's, Sours, RIS, etc.

You all have to admit that the light macro-lagers are well made. That kind of consistancy is amazing and I wish I were able to match it with my brews.

If you do not like the flavor of BMC beers, don't drink them. I will admit to liking a light beer on a hot day. If you have a problem with the (legal) competative business practices, do not support the company, but realize those practices are their right. If you have a problem with a company using sweatshop labor and mistreating employees/committing other atrocities, definitely do not support the company.

All I ask is you respect a company, in a capitalist industry, for trying to make money within the bounds of the law. If you really want to see the state of beer improve, gently introduce your friends and family to different styles of beer and get the market share of other styles up. Do not just trash the big guys, people are entitled to their opinions.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for the long response.
 

signpost

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All I ask is you respect a company, in a capitalist industry, for trying to make money within the bounds of the law. If you really want to see the state of beer improve, gently introduce your friends and family to different styles of beer and get the market share of other styles up. Do not just trash the big guys, people are entitled to their opinions.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for the long response.
People are entitled to their opinions. And I am entitled to not have any respect for companies that do things I disagree with.
 

NewJersey

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The three tier system is bordeline illegal. It faces attacks all the time and many states now allow limited self-distribution by smaller breweries. This is a big win in my book. BMC spend an unreal amount of money on lobbying to keep this competition stifling sytem in place. 3 tier is literally only legal because they use their tremendous size ($$$) to influence lawmakers. this is a perversion of capitalism and democracy.
I dont see how you guys cannot see that AB and MillerCoors splitting distribution for a given area and not allowing anything else isn't stifling competiton. Competition is supposed to be key in a free market economy, right? Under the three tier system you could have a dozen bars that want to buy beer from a local brewery, but are not allowed to because a distributor (basically owned by one of the two BMCs) wont carry it. (thus, not allowing real supply and demand to take place. this is not just "smart business" as many of you are trying to claim) Anyone remember back in the day when we tried Monopoly cases at the federal level. Doesn't happen anymore.
I'm not saying that AB is a monopoly, but they're sure as heck too close for me.
Being a big corporation isn't morally wrong. The shady things their size allows them them to do are. The billion dollar national ad campaigns that trick people into continuing the light lager BS, is depressing.
I've encountered so many BMC drinkers who have never even tried anything other than bud. when offered something else, many actually do like it
 

the_trout

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I agree with NJ that the 3 tier system is deeply flawed. For me (and we are all entitled to our own opinions) the blame should not be placed upon the manufacturer or the distributor. They are operating within the limits of the law. The blame should go to the legislative bodies that passed, and continue to endorse the laws that put this system in place but that is best addressed in another forum.
 

Yooper

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keep in mind that our forum rules prohibit getting into political comments, and while this has been fine so far it can easily start to go off track if we let it! Talking about three tier distribution and the business model of a company is fine- just make sure we don't start getting into political comments and things like that. Thanks.

There is a lot of information about InBev online, and their business practices. I think the movie "Beer Wars" covers much of this as well.
 

Nightshade

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I agree with NJ that the 3 tier system is deeply flawed. For me (and we are all entitled to our own opinions) the blame should not be placed upon the manufacturer or the distributor. They are operating within the limits of the law. The blame should go to the legislative bodies that passed, and continue to endorse the laws that put this system in place. Fundamentally, it is their job to represent the interests of the constituency not the interest of business. It is one of the founding principles of our government that they represent the will of the people. After all the constitution starts with "We the people" not "We the corporations".
I do agree with what you say to a point.

The issue is that the BMC lobby is keeping these books from being repealed through sheer volume of funds, as if buying a blind eye.

I am not advocating leveling the playing field so much as I am more in favor of making sure that no brewery can own the distribution chains and instead distribution has to be an independent company with no affiliation aside from carrying the products from point A to point B. In a perfect world I would say allow standard shipping procedures for any truckable product without having to go through the distributorship, but I know the whole state line thing makes it a federal issue that gets sticky on a state by state basis.
 

Yooper

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Honest question, what is it they do that you don't like?
And, if this is a genuine question, I will just give a couple of recent links that come from googling "department of justice InBev":
http://blogs.wsj.com/riskandcompliance/2013/08/01/doj-joins-ab-inbev-fcpa-probe/
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2013/April/13-at-452.html

I stopped buying InBev in 2009, so my boycott goes back far longer than these links, but this is a tiny start on the explanation on why I have not purchased anything from them.
 

Dylan42

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I got to about page4 of reading everything, and everyone's opinions are not only passionate but very interesting to read. I watched the beer documentary on netflix and it too was very interesting and just so happens to be on this very topic (I forget the title).

I personally don't really care either way I will drink what tastes good to me, which is most often from local breweries here that most on this forum have never heard of. Plus I like supporting the local small companies in my area too.
I honestly am happy as long as the stores in my area continue to stock the craft brew I like.
 

Jeremy_N

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Ironically, the dissatisfaction with the lack of consumer choice has led to such an awesome hobby/obsession for me. If I could buy interesting beers and try new beers easily and for a reasonable price, I probably wouldn't have jumped into homebrewing. In that respect, I'm okay with BMC. I will drink them often, not because I love the taste but I do like to hang out for more than 6 beers. Plus, having them in stock at my house helps keep my friends from smashing all my homebrews. That said, I don't think there is anything wrong whatever side of the fence you are on.
 

NewJersey

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I don't like the fact that they obey laws that are, apparently, against the law
are you being intentionally thick or what?
you've never seen laws that are later changed or reversed? you can't see how what they're doing is just plain wrong?
 
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