Blended Beer. Cheating or not?

[slowbie]

I was referring mostly to the poll.

 

[Willie3]

P.S. I was just going to watch this thread and not comment at all, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry.

Just when I thought I was safe, they pull me back in.... it's like Pringles, betcha can't eat just one.


WW

 

[slowbie]

....it's like Pringles, betcha can't eat just one.

No kidding. I watched this thread from the beginning and managed to not comment for two days and fifteen pages and here I am on my fourth comment in three hours on this thread.

 

[DavidSteel]

Possibly, yes.

BTW: I'm not down with this accidental beer concept.

If you brewed a beer (using methods including possibly blending), EVALUATED IT TO A STYLE guideline and entered it, then there is no accident.

You can follow every recommendation under the sun to increase your chances of repeating a beer, but there is certainly no guarantee of it. Who is to say that your carefully brewed un-blended beer is not a one off? An accident.

Already explained this in a follow-up post. If you buy into the subjective comment, then beer rating and award-winning is nullified and all due to subjective interpretation. It's not to say the beer is bad, it's just you are not responsible for creating it.

Let's say I was brewing a Dortmunder, and for some reason, my hop utilization was better than I expected and it was too hoppy. The beer's ok, but not really in style or what I like, so I add some combination of my own Helles and Pilsener to nudge the beer into the proper values for the style in terms of FG, taste and IBU.

I've never seen anything that even implied that the brewer's original intent was the important part.

>"For the slight miss in IBU or gravity due to unknown, lets call them, imperfections in the hops (not well-recorded AA, let's say) or slight miss in mashing temp by 1-2 degrees (or the machine weighing the grains was inaccurate a little), I think are dismissible, but only a certain extent. If you want to take responsibility for a beer, you should have a lot of experience with that beer (in making it, knowledge about what goes in to it, exact amount of hops, etc etc.). I, personally wouldn't take it this far. I think it is enough to have a planned vision of what you are going to make and then act on that vision. If it does not turn out how you have seen it, keep working at it. Once you have it, master it. Only then can it be called your beer (unless, that is, you buy into the realm of the subjective and thence anyone can see the beer for whatever they want and it loses it's objective value and vision that you constructed it with. Think of a tarp with paint splattered on it randomly. Is this "art"? No. It is not. There is a purpose behind what an artist does and a certain objectivity in their creation that they have built it on and want people to see. People can claim to feel all sorts of percepts (e.g. emotions) it gives them, but these people completely miss the point). People that act (paint) without a purpose in mind are not making "art". I could keep going, but I don't feel it's as related. Another way to think of it is as a BMC drinker liking your beer because it's red and that is it. Does that make your beer good because it is red? Hell no. That is an amber ale brewed with: ______ ________ _______ etc. etc. You wonder why we hate BMC drinkers and don't like people who don't understand something for what it is.)."

Intent is looked at if you actually deserve the award. I can pour an old rasputin and a dopplebock together and submit it as my own, do you think I deserve an award? If the beer is good, that's nice and dandy (and maybe a good reference point for future brews), but you don't win. You didn't do anything. That's similar to covering a popular bands song, putting your own little spin on it (Additional bass line etc.) and claiming it your own.

What if I was to add to my recipe x# of grain, xOZ hops, & another yeast...but the manner in which I add them would be to first combine them separately then introduce the rest of the ingredients to which they also have been combined. Is that blending?

If that was your original goal, it should be fine under most circumstances.

The one problem with this point that you keep bringing up is that this thread has shown that most experienced brewers consider blending to be a part of the brewing process.

"Remember, the major goal of competitions
is to educate the entrants and
to help them improve their brewing.
The one problem with this point that you keep bringing up is that this thread has shown that most experienced brewers consider blending to be a part of the brewing process."

Most 'experienced brewers' that you speak of have the idea of blending in mind and (may) have the knowledge and background (experience) to do so. I'd digress to my argument that one (the person) should only get an award if they had experience with the beer and have worked at it from a vision they had, whether it be from past experienced, inspiration, ideas, etc. They have to work at it to call and know every step about what they are doing in order to claim responsibility for it.

A lot of this just ends up coming down to the beer getting the award and you just getting to hold on to it. I think a person getting the award relates more to a single brewery, as they have (in their mind) perfected a style and continue to make that single beer to the best of their abilities. Not everything can be calculated 100% accurately, but things like that are to be expected.

 

[slowbie]

I can pour an old rasputin and a dopplebock together and submit it as my own, do you think I deserve an award?

We are well past the debate of whether or not blending commercial beers is ethical. Obviously it is not and is against the rules in most if not all competitions.

I don't have the time or patience to deal with the rest of what you wrote.

 

[AnOldUR]

Poll: Blended Beer. Cheating or not?

The one problem with this point that you keep bringing up is that this thread has shown that most experienced brewers consider blending to be a part of the brewing process.

I was referring mostly to the poll.

Just thought you might like to know what the poll question was.

 

[hal2814]

This is purely speculation on your part. All this thread proves is that the blenders on this forum feel the need to justify there practice more than the non-blenders.

Your mention of "blenders on this forum" makes me curious how many of us posting on this thread actually blend beer on a regular basis (or at all for that matter). I have defended the process of blending beer but the only time I've actually done it is when I brew 10 gallon batches. I don't have the equipment for a 10 gallon boil or ferment so I split the batch in two after the mash but before the boil. Unfortunately, I get different boil-off rates so after fermentation I go half and half from each fermenter into two kegs. I've never entered that beer into a competition but I wouldn't hesitate to. Does anyone else here ever blend beer for any reason? Has anyone here entered a blended beer into a competition?

 

[slowbie]

Just thought you might like to know what the poll question was.

My apologies. However, no offense to you, but when it comes down to it, as a new brewer with limited personal experience, but plenty of experience reading HBT, I am going to trust the opinions of people like Yooper and olllllo before I'm going to trust yours. They have consistently proven themselves to be knowledgeable brewers and upstanding citizens (for the most part ) throughout their many posts across this forum.

Also, IMHO (I'm really trying to keep the H in there, so I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like it), their logic makes sense, whereas yours seems arbitrary and groundless.

 

[Trevor57]

Why are you people still crying about others blending beers? You can't stop it from happening, and it seems obvious that nobody cares about what your individual rules are for what you consider proper brewing technique, or what you define as beer.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . as a new brewer with limited personal experience, but plenty of experience reading HBT, I am going to trust the opinions of people like Yooper and olllllo before I'm going to trust yours. They have consistently proven themselves to be knowledgeable brewers and upstanding citizens (for the most part ) throughout their many posts across this forum.

Also, IMHO (I'm really trying to keep the H in there, so I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like it), their logic makes sense, whereas yours seems arbitrary and groundless.

So, this implies that I know nothing about brewing and that I raped the neighbors dog. Sure, I'm fine with that.



This post pretty much sums up my position on blending. Please, oh well read, humble one, what exactly is arbitrary and groundless about it?

This is exactly my opinion. I would not enter a blended beer into a catagory where it's not part of the historic process, but I don't expect that from someone else. And if they win, good for them.

Considering them a cheat is wrong. It's clearly not against any rules. If I enter a competition, it's to test my skill at brewing a single style of beer. For someone else the purpose may be to produce a winning beer. If we both get what we were after, no one loses.

 

[weirdboy]

This is purely speculation on your part. All this thread proves is that the blenders on this forum feel the need to justify there practice more than the non-blenders.

For what it's worth, I don't blend my beers, although after having enjoyed their special blend "Dirty Beaver Juice" at the Bruery last weekend, I have been more interested in experimenting along these lines.

I simply support the position that there's nothing wrong with it. I don't see how it's different from adding DME to wort when you miss your target pre-boil gravity, adding yeast to a stuck fermentation, etc.

 

[slowbie]

Oh, I'd say that when "beer" becomes one of your ingredients for making beer, you've crossed the line.

The debate isn't about hot side / cold side. We’re obviously talking about the entire brewing process, which includes cold side additions. The discussion is if blending two different beers to make a third should be part of that process like dry hopping or wood aging.

The fact that you don't consider the blending of two beers that are brewed by one homebrewer to be a legitimate part of the brewing process is what I find to be an arbitrary and groundless line.

So, this implies that I know nothing about brewing and that I raped the neighbors dog. Sure, I'm fine with that.

I only meant to say that I know nothing about your brewing. For all I know you could be the best brewer in the world. But by the same token, for all I know, you don't know much about brewing. The point is: I DON'T KNOW. The upstanding citizen part was an attempt at a joke based on a recollection of one of Yooper's threads I read recently. I guess it didn't transfer well.

The point is, in my experience, Yooper and olllllo are people whose factual knowledge is true in my experience. I have also found that the opinions they form from this knowledge are opinions I tend to agree with. You, on the other hand, are an unknown. All I have read from you is in this thread.

I'm sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I can tell you one thing for sure, if you offered me your beer, I would accept, blended or not EDIT: (Oh yeah, and I'd give you one of mine, as soon as I have one worth sharing.)


Regardless of who was making what points, I came into this thread with an opinion closer to yours, and upon reading, have decided that I think blending one's homebrew is perfectly fine as a part of their brewing process. Obviously your opinion is not going to change and mine is unlikely to change either, especially since both sides have been basically rehashing the same points for the last ten pages (aren't forums great!) I didn't even want to get involved, and I don't know why I did, but I'm done now. Thanks for sharing your opinions and knowledge to help my learning and development as a new brewer.

 

[JayInJersey]

Wait if everyone stop arguing in these threads...I'll have to WORK!

UNACCEPTABLE

 

[AnOldUR]

The fact that you don't consider the blending of two beers that are brewed by one homebrewer to be a legitimate part of the brewing process is what I find to be an arbitrary and groundless line.

Everyone who enters a competition has that glimmer of hope that they may win something, but the reality is that for most us, we’re looking for two things; validation that our beer doesn’t suck and feedback on ways to make it better. Bobby_M mentioned if you "send in a mix of RIS and Munich Helles, and it tastes like a perfect Northern Brown, it will be judged that way. " This is true and if it’s the best Northern Brown it should win.

The reason I don’t consider blending part of MY brewing process (for competitions) is that the feedback I get won’t do a lot for me when I try to actually brew a Northern Brown. There’s nothing groundless or arbitrary about that.

Adding DME to correct a low OG or yeast for a stuck fermentation are things that can be corrected for the next time I brew. The complexities of figuring out how two finished beers came together to create a third would be hard to duplicate.

So if you’re happy with brewing a RIS and a Munich Helles every time you want a Northern Brown that’s your business. It’s just not the way I want to brew.

 

[Bobby_M]

Me either. I don't think anyone really wants to brew blend batches. I know a few people who actually DO brew complimentary beers to end up with 10 gallons of decent APA rather than 5 gallons of underhopped APA. For most, they'd just drink it or dump it and go ahead and take another shot at it.

I'm defending the relevancy of blending despite the fact that I have never done it and don't plan to (except for the Flanders Brown if necessary).

I think we're going through a fun mental exercise here rather than dealing with a practical problem. Does anyone see Gorden Strong's method of fruiting in the same league as blending two beers? Fruit beers already have half a dozen ways of getting fruit into them.

 

[brewagentjay]

Does anyone see Gorden Strong's method of fruiting in the same league as blending two beers? Fruit beers already have half a dozen ways of getting fruit into them.

Fruiting the beer break "Man Laws" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Laws

 

[Synovia]

This is exactly my opinion. I would not enter a blended beer into a catagory where it's not part of the historic process, but I don't expect that from someone else. And if they win, good for them.

There is not a single category that doesn't have blending in its historic process. Commercial breweries have been blending beers for hundreds of years. You would have a hard time finding a commercial beer that ISNT blended.

 

[Synovia]

Everyone who enters a competition has that glimmer of hope that they may win something, but the reality is that for most us, we’re looking for two things; validation that our beer doesn’t suck and feedback on ways to make it better. Bobby_M mentioned if you "send in a mix of RIS and Munich Helles, and it tastes like a perfect Northern Brown, it will be judged that way. " This is true and if it’s the best Northern Brown it should win.

Again, you're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that this is all random, and that theres no a HUGE amount of skill involved. You can't just throw beers together and get something good.


If a brewer is good enough to drink some of that RIS, and say, "hey, a little bit of pils, little bit of Munich, some nobles hops, maybe a touch of vienna, and this will make a fantastic Brown", then they know what they're doing, and understand the styles and ingredients much better than I (and most of the people on this forum) do. Finding the right balance in mixing two beers is significantly more difficult then just brewing a Brown Ale.



EDIT:

I just wanted to add another point here:

You are at a point as a brewer where you need honest feedback about your beer to learn how to be a better brewer. Thats where most of us are. There are those who have good enough taste buds, or knowledge, who are past the point of needing quick help and picking up off tastes.

Blending is a separate step, and there are people entering competitions to get feedback on how well they are doing that process. The fact that most of us aren't at the point where we can't use more feedback on simple recipes doesn't mean that there aren't people who are.

 

[knightbeer39]

This may have been posted, I'm not going to go through 14 pages of bickering to find out, but this recently came up on AHA Tech talk:

"Michael, One final word on blending for competitions: "Maybe a policy statement from BJCP would also settle the matter." We did; I did. In my earlier reply to this issue I, in my position as BJCP Competition Director, said that the BJCP does not care if the entrant blends or not. It is OK as far as the BJCP is concerned. Judges only judge the beer that's put before them. We do not read the recipes or know who made it or how they made it. Judges don't care. We will judge the beer compared to published, objective standards and provide appropriate evaluation and feedback. Beyond that, the BJCP and judges, don't care if the brewer blended, nailed everything as intended or made a dry stout and it turned out a great American Dark Lager and the brewer entered as such. Local competition organizers may if they wish set local competition rules and could say "no blending." I would never do that as a competition organizer but someone can if they wish. And brewers can chose to enter competitions based on the published rules.

David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director"

There is everyone's answer. It's perfectly acceptable to blend as far as the BJCP is concerned.

 

[AnOldUR]

Again, you're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that this is all random, and that theres no a HUGE amount of skill involved. You can't just throw beers together and get something good.

There’s really no point in responding to YOUR ridiculous statements. Numerous times in this thread I’ve already pointed out that I see it as an admirable skill. But that for ME it has no place in competition.

Blending is a separate step, and there are people entering competitions to get feedback on how well they are doing that process.

Well, we’re making progress. We agree that it’s a separate step and a different process from actual brewing. Not cheating. No less noble. Just different.

 

[Willie3]

Now I am hung up on the belief that it is not about the brewer because the beer is what is being judged. I believe that brewers create amazing beers from steadfast recipes (including blending if you must), and win medals for their brew, recipe, process, and ingredients not just the beer. As a whole the brew includes everything mentioned above plus the person who created it. Would you agree that a medal/ribbon just does not stand for the brew it stands the the process as a whole. I think that one side believes blending to be more in the lines of Mixology and is what they feel is a result of that practice, not brewing.

Arguments were also made about how big brewerys blend, which again IMHO, is irrelevant to the point we aren't BMC or the like.

If blending is something you wish to do by all means do it, you probably can concoct a fabulous brew and should be available to us as homebrewers. I don't think that it would do anything for me to enter a blended beer as the feedback may just be more a result of my blending technique and not my brewing technique.

 

[weremichael]

This may have been posted, I'm not going to go through 14 pages of bickering to find out, but this recently came up on AHA Tech talk:

"Michael, One final word on blending for competitions: "Maybe a policy statement from BJCP would also settle the matter." We did; I did. In my earlier reply to this issue I, in my position as BJCP Competition Director, said that the BJCP does not care if the entrant blends or not. It is OK as far as the BJCP is concerned. Judges only judge the beer that's put before them. We do not read the recipes or know who made it or how they made it. Judges don't care. We will judge the beer compared to published, objective standards and provide appropriate evaluation and feedback. Beyond that, the BJCP and judges, don't care if the brewer blended, nailed everything as intended or made a dry stout and it turned out a great American Dark Lager and the brewer entered as such. Local competition organizers may if they wish set local competition rules and could say "no blending." I would never do that as a competition organizer but someone can if they wish. And brewers can chose to enter competitions based on the published rules.

David Houseman
BJCP Competition Director"

There is everyone's answer. It's perfectly acceptable to blend as far as the BJCP is concerned.

I wish this would have been posted earlier. I change my vote to Blending is not cheating.

 

[Synovia]

Well, we’re making progress. We agree that it’s a separate step and a different process from actual brewing. Not cheating. No less noble. Just different.

No, we do not agree on that at all. We agree that its a separate step from what you're doing, which is only a small subset of what brewing entails.

 

[Synovia]

Arguments were also made about how big brewerys blend, which again IMHO, is irrelevant to the point we aren't BMC or the like.

Big breweries blend. Small breweries blend. Home brewers blend. Abbeys blend. Jamil, Palmer, etc blend.

 

[AnOldUR]

No, we do not agree on that at all. We agree that its a separate step from what you're doing, which is only a small subset of what brewing entails.

Damn! What I do, going from grain to glass, is a small subset of what brewing entails. Thank-you giving me a better understanding of my place in brewing world. I have nothing to contribute here. I'll leave this thread to you and your superior knowledge of zymurgy.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not that anyone should give a crap about my editorial comment on the matter but I think the thread has been interesting and I've gained an appreciation for both sides of the debate. For a 200 post count, it's been generally civil and that's pretty rare when an actual debate ensues. Anyway, I think the two sides have run their course and I personally have nothing more to add. No hard feelings with anyone.

 

[olllllo]

I will tell you of one circumstance where I can foresee an absolute moratorium on blending. If you had a contest where all of the brewers brewed on a certain day or place, perhaps the same style or using the same ingredients and the beers were judged in an effort to see who brewed the best beer that day, in effect a Brewing Contest.

Like a Bake-off, only cooler.

Then I can see a prohibition on blending and perhaps strict guidelines on what can be done after that day.

Is there such a contest?

 

[the_bird]

I will tell you of one circumstance where I can foresee an absolute moratorium on blending. If you had a contest where all of the brewers brewed on a certain day or place, perhaps the same style or using the same ingredients and the beers were judged in an effort to see who brewed the best beer that day, in effect a Brewing Contest.

Like a Bake-off, only cooler.

Then I can see a prohibition on blending and perhaps strict guidelines on what can be done after that day.

Is there such a contest?

Sounds like a reality TV program to me. "Last Brewery Standing."

 

[DRoyLenz]

I will tell you of one circumstance where I can foresee an absolute moratorium on blending. If you had a contest where all of the brewers brewed on a certain day or place, perhaps the same style or using the same ingredients and the beers were judged in an effort to see who brewed the best beer that day, in effect a Brewing Contest.

Like a Bake-off, only cooler.

Then I can see a prohibition on blending and perhaps strict guidelines on what can be done after that day.

Is there such a contest?

The closest thing I can think of is the Stone Vertical Epic Challenge, but even that doesn't fall in to your parameters exactly.

Pretty cool though, nonetheless. Stone Vertical Epic Challenge

 

[JayInJersey]

That would be an excellent contest though.
I assume everyone would use the same equipment?


However...wouldn't one still be able to use only a portion of the ingredients and make a smaller batch so they could then brew a second small batch and blend to perfect the first batch...unless there was a set time, which would make the second brewing difficult.


Would definitely decide if someone was the better brewer as nearly all the other variables would be moot.