Black Kölsch?

[AlexKay]

I came across this on a recent visit to my preferred local beer store:
Cold Black Night
Standard disclaimers: not brewed in Köln, therefore not a real Kölsch, there's no tradition of dark malt in Kölsches, etc.

But it's an interesting idea, and I was I was intrigued enough by it -- I was thinking it would be like a Schwarzbier, but with some cold-fermented-ale fermentation character, maybe a little more floral hop aroma, still crisp and sessionable and Kölsch-y -- to buy a pack. And it was a good beer, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion it missed the mark. The little angel floating by my shoulder and whispering in my ear is BJCP certified, and said "well executed, but should have been entered as Munich Dunkel" -- still clean, still drinkable, but definitely hitting the melanoidins too hard to be in Kölsch territory (or possibly Schwarzbier category, either.)

(The little devil whispering in my other ear said, "good, but needs lebkuchen in the mash tun, plus a bunch of lactose.")

So now I have to try to make one myself. I'm thinking:

60% Vienna -- malty, rich, and a little bit of toast
30% white wheat -- for crispness and great foam
5% Carafa III Special -- color and mild roast taste, without husk astringency
5% chocolate rye -- ditto, but also adds that rye je ne sais quoi.
1 g/L Saaz @ 10 minutes, plus whatever it takes in an early addition to get to ~20 IBU (Or instead of or in addition to Saaz, any of the wonderful Polish or Ukrainian high-farnesene hops. Or maybe even something with woody notes, like Fuggle, Vojvodina, or Northern Brewer.)
Kölsch yeast, fermented slightly warmer than usual (say, 62-64 F), with the thought of bringing out the esters a little more to compete with the black malt

Suggestions, comments, complaints, and pearl-clutching welcome.

 

[wepeeler]

There was a guy who brewed a Black Kolsch, and poured it at a local homebrew event, and I couldn't take it seriously. First off, the beer wasn't great. Second, using a Kolsch yeast and dramatically changing everything about a Kolsch just to name it a black Kolsch doesn't work. It's not a Kolsch. Rant over lol

 

[Brew_Dude41]

I personally don't use that much wheat in mine, but I can see upping it to counter the darker malts. If you want color without too much roasted flavor you can also just throw the chocolate rye in at the last 10 min or so of the mash to pull out color but less flavor.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I never thought dark and hoppy could work in the same beer but i often brew a hoppy amber/dark ale and really enjoy them.

Style guidelines are only important if you care about them. I don't care enough to get upset about beers being brewed not to style.

 

[lumpher]

I agree that guidelines can be ignored when it comes to making beer; that's why we brew our own. Now here's the "however"... you can't use a specific style and yeast, modify it however you want, and label it that style except for yourself. If a dog is 3 breeds, calling it a golden mastiff chihuahua doesn't make it so... it's a mutt. Some people will make a black IPA with Saison yeast, 30% wheat, and purple crayons for off-color, and call it a "Stormy Cloudy Off-Black IPA at the Farm". Ok... good on them. No need to try to fit it into a BJCP. Maybe 10% of my beers fit into a true style.
The most important thing to me about brewing: Enjoy the variations involved in what we do, and have fun. If we all stay within style all the time, might as well just buy it.

To address your thoughts on a recipe, I'd use fruity hops instead of woody to off-set the roast. Don't get me wrong... i love roasty beers. Stouts are my favorite. Woody might make it too bitter. Lactose: I wouldn't use it. You probably like your beers different than I do, though, so as I said, go for what you want and enjoy the process.

 

[AlexKay]

I agree that guidelines can be ignored when it comes to making beer; that's why we brew our own. Now here's the "however"... you can't use a specific style and yeast, modify it however you want, and label it that style except for yourself. If a dog is 3 breeds, calling it a golden mastiff chihuahua doesn't make it so... it's a mutt. Some people will make a black IPA with Saison yeast, 30% wheat, and purple crayons for off-color, and call it a "Stormy Cloudy Off-Black IPA at the Farm". Ok... good on them. No need to try to fit it into a BJCP. Maybe 10% of my beers fit into a true style.
The most important thing to me about brewing: Enjoy the variations involved in what we do, and have fun. If we all stay within style all the time, might as well just buy it.

To address your thoughts on a recipe, I'd use fruity hops instead of woody to off-set the roast. Don't get me wrong... i love roasty beers. Stouts are my favorite. Woody might make it too bitter. Lactose: I wouldn't use it. You probably like your beers different than I do, though, so as I said, go for what you want and enjoy the process.

The lactose was a joke!

I agree with your statement on style: outside of a competition, the point of naming a style is to communicate to others what they’re going to be drinking. That’s why “black Kölsch” was so interesting — I saw the description, and I immediately had a very specific idea of what I’d be getting in that can, so much so that I was disappointed when it tasted like a Dunkel.

 

[Miraculix]

kölsch and other German grain bills are usually really simple.

For kölsch, use pilsner malt. Thats it. If you want to turn it dark, add one dark grain with the smallest roast or flavour contribution you can think of. Midnight wheat for example.

What you have thrown together there, wouldn't be a kölsch, even if all the dark grains are removed.

Also, twenty ibus is too little. Try 30. I've never had a 20 ibu Kölsch.

Kölsch is basically a pilsner with a little bit of fruity esters.

 

[AlexKay]

For kölsch, use pilsner malt. Thats it. If you want to turn it dark, add one dark grain with the smallest roast or flavour contribution you can think of. Midnight wheat for example.

I have a principled stand on "color without flavor" for "black" (or even "red") versions of things that are usually pale. I'm against.

I think there should be flavor that comes along with the dark grains, and if you're just going to add Sinamar to try to make the pale and black versions indistinguishable in a blind tasting, why even bother? Now, which dark-grain flavors you add are important: notes of cold-brew coffee or chocolate are good, burnt tastes are not. Roast astringency should also be minimal. I've settled on Carafa Special for my Black IPAs, after finding that midnight wheat and chocolate rye weren't assertive enough. Midnight wheat worked well for my Black Doppelbock, however. (IMO, a Black Doppelbock is distinguished from a Baltic Porter or Imperial Schwarzbier by its emphasis on melanoidins and relative (at least to the porter) dryness.)

Also, twenty ibus is too little. Try 30. I've never had a 20 ibu Kölsch.

I dunno, I remember one time at the Biergarten Rathenauplatz when they brought me a stange, and I whipped out my portable spectrophotometer and measured a 275 nm absorbance of only 0.392!

(Joking. I understand the point that -- all numbers aside -- Kölsch should taste like a moderately bitter beer.)

My thinking on this was that there might be some perception of bitterness from the roast malt, so safer to back off a little bit on the hop bitterness. It seems like this beer would definitely not be pleasant if it was over-bitter, and under-bitter might not be so bad.

 

[lumpher]

kölsch and other German grain bills are usually really simple.

For kölsch, use pilsner malt. Thats it. If you want to turn it dark, add one dark grain with the smallest roast or flavour contribution you can think of. Midnight wheat for example.

What you have thrown together there, wouldn't be a kölsch, even if all the dark grains are removed.

Also, twenty ibus is too little. Try 30. I've never had a 20 ibu Kölsch.

Kölsch is basically a pilsner with a little bit of fruity esters.

I agree with only Pilsner malt. I think the best Kolsch I've made is Pils malt, Northern Brewer hops to about 27-30 ibu, and 2565 yeast. To make it darker, I'd add some debittered Black and call it done.

 

[Broothru]

kölsch and other German grain bills are usually really simple.

For kölsch, use pilsner malt. Thats it. If you want to turn it dark, add one dark grain with the smallest roast or flavour contribution you can think of. Midnight wheat for example.

What you have thrown together there, wouldn't be a kölsch, even if all the dark grains are removed.

Also, twenty ibus is too little. Try 30. I've never had a 20 ibu Kölsch.

Kölsch is basically a pilsner with a little bit of fruity esters.

Plus, to be a Kolsch the beer must be brewed within ~20 km of Koln, IIRC. Brewing anything similar to the highlighted ’Black Kolsch’ would result in a brewer being banished to Düsseldorf!

 

[Miraculix]

I have a principled stand on "color without flavor" for "black" (or even "red") versions of things that are usually pale. I'm against.

I think there should be flavor that comes along with the dark grains, and if you're just going to add Sinamar to try to make the pale and black versions indistinguishable in a blind tasting, why even bother? Now, which dark-grain flavors you add are important: notes of cold-brew coffee or chocolate are good, burnt tastes are not. Roast astringency should also be minimal. I've settled on Carafa Special for my Black IPAs, after finding that midnight wheat and chocolate rye weren't assertive enough. Midnight wheat worked well for my Black Doppelbock, however. (IMO, a Black Doppelbock is distinguished from a Baltic Porter or Imperial Schwarzbier by its emphasis on melanoidins and relative (at least to the porter) dryness.)


I dunno, I remember one time at the Biergarten Rathenauplatz when they brought me a stange, and I whipped out my portable spectrophotometer and measured a 275 nm absorbance of only 0.392!

(Joking. I understand the point that -- all numbers aside -- Kölsch should taste like a moderately bitter beer.)

My thinking on this was that there might be some perception of bitterness from the roast malt, so safer to back off a little bit on the hop bitterness. It seems like this beer would definitely not be pleasant if it was over-bitter, and under-bitter might not be so bad.

I understand your point regarding the roast, but the result has nothing in common with a kölsch anymore. So why not call it what it actually is? A stout.

 

[AlexKay]

I have to say I'm surprised by the direction this thread has taken.

I came across this on a recent visit to my preferred local beer store:
Cold Black Night
Standard disclaimers: not brewed in Köln, therefore not a real Kölsch, there's no tradition of dark malt in Kölsches, etc.

But it's an interesting idea...

Ok, maybe not too surprised. More fool me for posting it the way I did.

Please let me try again.

I'm trying to make a crisp, sessionable, dark beer. I'd like it to be dry -- certainly no crystal-derived sweetness -- and I want the dark malt character to be very restrained, there for the color and some interesting roast coffee or chocolate notes, but with no burnt flavors or roast astringency. I was thinking I'd make it moderately bitter, with some noble hop flavor (or if not noble, certainly Old World hops), and use a top-fermenting German yeast at cool temperatures.

This is my starting point for a recipe:

60% Vienna -- malty, rich, and a little bit of toast
30% white wheat -- for crispness and great foam
5% Carafa III Special -- color and mild roast taste, without husk astringency
5% chocolate rye -- ditto, but also adds that rye je ne sais quoi.
1 g/L Saaz @ 10 minutes, plus whatever it takes in an early addition to get to ~20 IBU (Or instead of or in addition to Saaz, any of the wonderful Polish or Ukrainian high-farnesene hops. Or maybe even something with woody notes, like Fuggle, Vojvodina, or Northern Brewer.)
Kölsch yeast, fermented slightly warmer than usual (say, 62-64 F), with the thought of bringing out the esters a little more to compete with the black malt

I will think about more Pilsner and less Vienna. My general observation is that beers with lots of wheat remain crisp and dry even when Vienna makes up much of the balance of the grist. Though maybe 30% Vienna, 30% white wheat, and 30% sugar or flaked corn would be interesting. I'm not attached to a particular process or tradition; I'm just trying to get to the right product.

When my friends come over and ask me what I have on tap, I'll tell them "stout." I'll probably then have to spend some time explaining that it's not at all like Guinness (which is thicker in its body, has much more burnt flavor, and a more expressive fermentation) or Sierra Nevada (also thicker, more burnt, and citrus/pine-y in its hop character) or Dragon (again full-bodied, and much sweeter and more alcoholic) or Old Rasputin (much more alcoholic, aggressive, and by no means sessionable), or any other stout they're familiar with.

The one thing I will absolutely not, under any circumstances do is compare it to another beer which shares some of its characteristics -- crisp, dry, noble hops, yeast strain and resulting fermentation character, sessionable -- but is a different color. They couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance involved, and would only look at me confused and say, "Tell me about the stout again."

I hope they won't get this one confused with the last stout I brewed, which was similarly restrained on the roast, but was quite bitter and very hop-forward, with fruity New World hops.

 

[Miraculix]

You do you my friend.

 

[AlexKay]

You do you my friend.

That’s fair. I apologize if I sound overly exasperated.

 

[fluketamer]

"a crisp, sessionable, dark beer. I'd like it to be dry -- certainly no crystal-derived sweetness -- and I want the dark malt character to be very restrained, there for the color and some interesting roast coffee or chocolate notes, but with no burnt flavors or roast astringency."

you are describing something very similar to a schwarzbier.

German-Style Schwarzbier​

Sometimes called black lagers, they may remind some of German-style dunkels, but schwarzbiers are drier, darker and more roast-oriented.These very dark brown to black beers have a surprisingly pale-colored foam head (not excessively brown) with good cling quality. They have a mild roasted malt character without the associated bitterness. Malt flavor and aroma is at low to medium levels of sweetness.


my schwarzbier fits your desciption quite well.


6 gallons

10 lbs briess pilsner
.5 lbs chocolate
.5 lbs carafa 2
2 ounces black malt

i bittered with chinook to about 25 ibus but any clean bittering hop would prolly work as well as a noble hop.


this came out very good . dry clean crisp with good coffee and chocolate notes. close to a stout but drier also not so sessionable this came out to 6 percent. you could lower the base malt to about 8 to make it more crushable.


also i dont brew to style and have never enter a contest but to me kolsch is the one brew that has to be made to style to be a kolsch . (pilsner malt kolsch yeast german noble hops.) otherwise its a lager (when you substitue with lager yeast ) or a lightly hopped pale ale (when you change the base malt) .

 

[AlexKay]

Schwarzbier! Exactly. I was thinking along the lines of one of those SAT analogy questions (if they still have those), like

Helles:Schwarzbier :: Kölsch:________
and I’d fill in the blank with “Black Kölsch.”

This was why the commercial beer (from Solemn Oath in Chicago) disappointed: too much Munich or the like even for a Schwarzbier.

 

[Agent]

Standard disclaimers: not brewed in Köln, therefore not a real Kölsch, there's no tradition of dark malt in Kölsches, etc.

Just because you laid the stage to get over the "That's not how it's done" hump, doesn't mean anyone will listen. =]

I wish I could help in your endeavors, but I've never had a Kolsch that wowed me in any particular way. But I'd follow your analogy and just apply the dark grains from a Schwartzbier to a proven Kolsch recipe.

 

[Bobby_M]

I see the Kolsch/Swarzbier comparison but I also think of Kolsch/Altbier. Some esters driven by fermentation in the "hybrid" zone of 60F and the yeasts can be used interchangeably for the most part. 4.5-5% on average, both medium body (though kolsch is usually on the lighter body side). While an Alt is not "black" exactly, I think of it as a dark Kolsch.


A black Helles is a Schwarzbier. If it weren't for the slight unavoidable hint of roast character in a Schwarzbier, you might mistake it for a Helles when blindfolded. Also both can use the same lager yeast interchangeably.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Close.

A black Kolsch would be an Altbier. Some esters driven by fermentation in the "hybrid" zone of 60F. 4.5-5% on average, both medium body (though kolsch is usually on the lighter body side). While an Alt is not "black" exactly, I think of it as a dark Kolsch.


A black Helles is a Schwarzbier. If it weren't for the slight unavoidable hint of roast charcter in a Schwarzbier, you might mistake it for a Helles when blindfolded.

This kind of highlights the issues when defining beer styles.

I dont care either way, but how can a black kolsch be an altbier, and a black helles a schwarzbier? And who gets to decide? The BJCP police?

 

[ehall]

I've done this before... all I did was take a standard kolsch recipe and cold steep dehusked carafa III, then add before pitching yeast. My point in doing this was all the folks I was running into at parties saying, 'I don't like dark beers'. I wanted to show people, don't judge a beer by its color.

 

[Bobby_M]

This kind of highlights the issues when defining beer styles.

I dont care either way, but how can a black kolsch be an altbier, and a black helles a schwarzbier? And who gets to decide? The BJCP police?

No, we're just shooting the poop in here right? There is no style called black kolsch. We're just talking about different ways to make comparisons between established styles and possibly bending some of them into new ones. There was no black IPA before, and now there is because people took a style and messed around with it enough to become popular.

It's kind of cool and rebellious to take the position that categorizing things into styles is too constricting and oppressive, but there are no style police and no one has to call their beer anything unless you're trying to compete in a BJCP competition.

 

[Broothru]

I've done this before... all I did was take a standard kolsch recipe and cold steep dehusked carafa III, then add before pitching yeast. My point in doing this was all the folks I was running into at parties saying, 'I don't like dark beers'. I wanted to show people, don't judge a beer by its color.

As little as an ounce of Blackprinze sprinkled on top of the grain bed prior to a recirculation mash would likely have the desired effect, and would probably avoid any roasty taste.

I use small amounts of Blackprinze to adjust for color quite frequently. It’s powerful at changing the color of the wort with little to no taste or body alteration. You could probably use that to make a ‘black Kolsch’, but why not just brew an altbier instead?

 

[bwible]

II don't care enough to get upset about beers being brewed not to style.

Only when something is being called something it’s not. Especially if somebody is doing it commercially. Thats called false advertising.

 

[micraftbeer]

I like the second description of your beer, sounds like something I've been trying to make (I'm calling it Black Zima).

I also think the Black kolsch thing sounds interesting, but to me that's a different beer. Kolsch in my mind is very "dainty" - nice malt taste, but clean; a bit of yeast character, but not sweet; slight hop crispness, but no hop flavor. And I think that's all set up by the yeast. So if you're trying to make a version of that and utilize kolsch yeast, I'd keep the black malts in the "dainty" category where you get the color, but just a hint of roast. So small amount of de-husked carafa added at the end of mash and only enough to get the color just barely on the edge of where you want it.

 

[Tony B]

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