Black Heart Cascadian Dark Ale

[zgardener]

I just discovered this style and immediately moved it to the top of the order.

Batch Size: 5.5 Gallons
Boil Volume: 7.0 Gallons
AA: 75%
OG: 1.073
SRM: 47
IBU: 72

12# 2 Row
1# Crystal 60
.25# Crystal 120
.5# De-bittered roasted barley
.75# Black patent
.33# Chocolate Malt

Mashed @ 155 for 60 minutes. 1.2:1 grist to water ratio.

90 minute boil
Whole leaf hops

.5 oz Centennial (75)
1 oz Centennial (60)
1 oz Cascade (30)
1 oz Cascade (15)
Dry hop w/ .5 oz Centinnial and 2 oz Cascade

Going for a pungent citrus aroma and flavor to be complimented by the mild roastiness of the de-bittered and chocolate malts. I was having trouble getting the color dark enough in ProMash. Does anyone think that the roasted malts could be too pungent? Should I decrease either the chocolate or debittered and up the black patent?

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

I haven't brewed one of these types of beers yet, but I'm compiling a recipe of my own. To be honest, the thing that stands out the most in your recipe is the Black Patent. .75# seems like an awful lot. I would increase the de-bittered roast barley and lose the Black Patent altogether. If you want to reduce the flavor impact of the dark malts, you could add them later in the mash.

 

[jfr1111]

I think most of these beers get their color from debittered malts used in small numbers late in the mash: basically take an IPA recipe and add a touch of coloring malts. Right now, that thing looks more like a stout/porter with a lot of hops.

 

[jgourd]

I got great results from mine. It's essentially 2-row pale (90% of the grist), debittered black (6.5%), and crystal 90 (3.5%). I am working on my second batch (since the first keg was polished in about 3 weeks) which will increase the debittered black to 10% of the grist, replace the 2-row pale with marris otter (82%), keep the crystal 90 (5%), and add carapils (3%). And I mashed my debittered black the entire time (60 minutes).

 

[zgardener]

I was adding the black patent for color at the end of the mash. I was going to use the De-bittered and Chocolate malts for the whole mash like jgourd did, I want the roasted characters to come thru, and I feel like the proportions i used them in will make it evident but not over powering.

So are y'all suggesting to do away with the black patent and add some more de-bittered roasted barley at the end of the mash?

 

[Doog_Si_Reeb]

I think the potential flavor impact from the black patent could push the beer more towards a stout, even if it's added late in the mash. I find black patent to have kind of a burnt flavor that may not be what you're looking for. If you stick with the debittered black, you should be able to get the color and some of the roast character you're looking for without being overpowering.

 

[zgardener]

It was always my understanding that black patent would impart intense color with minimal flavor impact (per AHS website).

 

[permo]

It was always my understanding that black patent would impart intense color with minimal flavor impact (per AHS website).

Quite the opposite, black patent (especially that much, even at the end of the mash) will give you huge roasty, astringent, even tar like flavor in your beer. Typically the color of this style is achieved through debittered malts and maybe some choco. Your recipe looks good, except up the debittered and ditch the black malt. If you brew it as it stands, to me it looks overhopped american porter. For reference, a fairly standard grain bill for the style

13# two row
1# C40 (whatever crystal you like)
.25# choco (optional, but will give it an enhanced roasty edge)
12 oz dehusked carafa (2 or 3)
dry , neutral yeast

You basically make an IPA and add debittered malt to color, and if you wish, a touch of roasted malts for flavor...restraint though.

If you must use up that black malt, I would cold steep it and add the liquid to the boil

 

[zgardener]

Thanks Permo, I'll take that into consideration, can't brew this up until I keg a couple of brews, and I cant keg until get my CO2 regulator in the mail (hopefully Wednesday), so I'll have the week to work on this, I'll keep y'all posted on the progress/results!

 

[permo]

I am brewing up the recipe I posted, with chinook, willamete and amarillo this week too...should be good times.

I am in the same situation as you, my kegs are all full and my fermenters all have beer in them. I guess it is a good problem to have.

 

[cruckin78]

I have a version of one of these in the fermenter now...
I used Columbus and Citra hops. With 60L English Crystal Malt, 120L Crystal Malt, Carafa Malt II, Roast Barley (it was an extract recipe, I steeped those grains at 170 for 30 min)

 

[zgardener]

I am brewing up the recipe I posted, with chinook, willamete and amarillo this week too...should be good times.

I am in the same situation as you, my kegs are all full and my fermenters all have beer in them. I guess it is a good problem to have.

Let me know how it comes out, and yes, a fantastic problem to have (that may still be an understatement)

 

[shroomzofdoom]

I just made a black ipa and that carafa is some strong stuff. I used 1# for a 11# batch--it's good, but the coffee and burnt flavor is a bit over the top for the style.

Mine tastes like a hoppy version of a smoky Porter. Next batch I make I am going to scale back to 1/2# of carafa.

Good stuff, just not in the proportions I used it.

 

[permo]

I just made a black ipa and that carafa is some strong stuff. I used 1# for a 11# batch--it's good, but the coffee and burnt flavor is a bit over the top for the style.

Mine tastes like a hoppy version of a smoky Porter. Next batch I make I am going to scale back to 1/2# of carafa.

Good stuff, just not in the proportions I used it.

Did you use dehusked carafaa? I am assuming you used the regular stuff...that would sure make your beer roasty.

 

[zgardener]

Yeah, the de-bittered is way toned down, I'm thinking about getting rid of the Black Patent all together, heres the new grain bill I worked up while pretending to look busy at work:

13 # 2 Row
1 # Crystal 60
.25 # Crystal 120
1 # De-bittered
.25# Chocolate
.5 # De-bittered (last 10 min of mash for color)

 

[RayKrueger]

I brewed up a CDA from a NotherBrewer.com all-grain kit a few months back. It really came out fantastic. All the attributes of a good IPA with a roasty malt finish.

MASH INGREDIENTS
11.5-lbs.-Rahr-2-row-pale
0.5-lbs.-Briess-Caramel-80L
0.25-lbs.-Weyermann-Dehusked-Carafa-III
0.25-lbs.-Simpsons-Chocolate-malt

BOIL ADDITIONS & TIMES
1-oz.-Summit-(60-min)
1-oz.-Simcoe-(15-min)
1-oz.-Centennial-(10-min)
1-oz.-Cascade-(5-min)
1-oz.-Amarillo-(0-min)
1-lb-Corn-sugar-(0-min)

Dry Hopped
1 oz. Ahtanum

(Ignore the fact that the URL has the word extract in it, dunno what they did there)
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/black-ipa-extract-kit-2.html

 

[zgardener]

Since I'm at work I've been using TastyBrew for my recipe calculations, did you really get it as dark as the photo on the NB website with only .5# of the dark grains? Dont know if TastyBrew is off, for the bill i just listed it only gave me an SRM of 38, I'd like 45 or higher...

 

[RayKrueger]

It came out beautifully black. I've uploaded some pics here, http://d.pr/pRAJ and here, http://d.pr/N5m6

I couldn't guess an SRM for you though.

 

[jgourd]

Mine for this newest version:

Back in Black IPA v2.0
----------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal (8.39 gal preboil)
Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
Estimated FG: 1.016 SG
Estimated IBUs: 73 (Tinseth)
Estimated Color: 40 SRM
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73%
Boil Time: 90 minutes

Grains:
12.50# Maris Otter Malt (81.97%)
1.50# De-bittered black malt (9.84%)
0.75# Caramel/Crystal 90L (4.92%)
0.50# Carapils/Dextrine (3.28%)

Hops:
1.50 oz Centennial (9.1%) @90 min
1.25 oz Cascade (4.6%) @20 min
1.25 oz Centennial (9.1%) @20 min
1.25 oz Cascade (4.6%) @5 min
1.50 oz Columbus (13.2%) @5 min
2.00 oz Cascade (4.6%) @0 min
1.00 oz Columbus (13.2%) @0 min
1.00 oz Cascade (4.6%) (dry hop)
1.00 oz Columbus (13.2%) (dry hop)
1.00 oz Centennial (9.1%) (dry hop)
1.00 oz Simcoe (12.2%) (dry hop)

Yeast:
White Labs WLP001 (California Ale) (California Ale)

Mash/Sparge Schedule:
Single Infusion, 152F; Batch Sparge

And a pic of my last one:

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Did you use dehusked carafaa? I am assuming you used the regular stuff...that would sure make your beer roasty.

Yeah, the package says 'Dehusked Carafa II'...it's good, kinda like 'the Starbucks of beers' but not what I was shooting for...

I can still make my beer black with .5 of the Carafa II, so I may try that next time.

 

[RayKrueger]

Since I'm at work I've been using TastyBrew for my recipe calculations, did you really get it as dark as the photo on the NB website with only .5# of the dark grains? Dont know if TastyBrew is off, for the bill i just listed it only gave me an SRM of 38, I'd like 45 or higher...

The NorthernBrewer site has Dehusked Carafa III listed as 490-560°L. Is that what TastyBrew has it as?

 

[zgardener]

Yeah, the package says 'Dehusked Carafa II'...it's good, kinda like 'the Starbucks of beers' but not what I was shooting for...

I can still make my beer black with .5 of the Carafa II, so I may try that next time.

AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

 

[zgardener]

The NorthernBrewer site has Dehusked Carafa III listed as 490-560°L. Is that what TastyBrew has it as?

It's a web-based calculator, so can't really see or adjust the darkness values. I've been meaning to throw it into ProMash and see what is spits out. The de-bittered black that I'm using is 500L - 600L so i think that will give me the color I'm after.

Either way, I think that I've pretty much got it down. I'm going to try to brew this as a quick turn around beer, so hopefully I can provide some updates on the taste in the next three weeks or so.

 

[RayKrueger]

Sounds awesome! I'm definitely going to brew this CDA again. I've only been brewing for about 8 months or so, but that CDA is the best thing we've brewed so far I think.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

I don't know for sure. But I do know that debittering usually means removing the burnt husks...the wiki for these malts shows them both as pretty durn black. Roasted Barley is 300 SRM and Carafa II is 412 SRM...so they proabably have some differences:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart

 

[jgourd]

AHS doesn't carry Carafa of any kind, the de-bittered roasted barley is pretty much the same stuff, right?

The debittered black they carry is the same as carafa special. I've used it and I don't notice the difference.

 

[zgardener]

Awesome. Thanks for all your comments. Going to AHS today and getting the starter going on Wed. Sunday brew day is fast approaching!

Final Grain Bill:

12# American 2 Row
1.25# Crystal 60
.5# Chocolate Malt
.75# De-bittered Black Barley (I was calling it roasted barley, it is in fact black barley, 500L - 600L)

OG: 1.071
FG: 1.016 (WLP001 with large starter, assuming 78% attenuation)
SRM: 40
ABV: 7.0

Hop schedule will stay the same as the original post, this is my first go with whole leaf hops, any suggestions for those? would it make things easier to use a hop bag, or just toss them in the boil?

 

[zgardener]

Just pitched my starter into an empty dead guy growler, kegged my AHS Cluster Fuggle IPA last night, will keg my Short Bus ESB on Saturday, and rack my Horny Steer Amber to secondary for dry hopping and crashing, thus opening up a primary for the Black Heart, we're set for Sunday!
It's gonna be a fantastic weekend!

 

[RayKrueger]

Damn you're a busy beaver! heh
My brothers and I will be brewing up an Irish Red Ale this Sunday and finishing off the last of the CDA I've got around here in the process

 

[zgardener]

Damn you're a busy beaver! heh
My brothers and I will be brewing up an Irish Red Ale this Sunday and finishing off the last of the CDA I've got around here in the process

Haha, yeah, I've been keeping myself busy
I've been trying to get my lil bro into brewing but he just doesn't seem interested, but he is getting into good beers, thanks in part to the convenience store down from his apt. They apparently carry every bottled beer available in Texas, one reason to visit him more often...