Bitter (Sour) Scottish Ales

[StoneIce]

I apologize for the length of this post before hand. I am trying to describe all the things I have tried and do during my brew process.

The problem I've been running into is my Scottish Ale recipes develop a very bitter (sour) taste to them. This sour taste gets worse the longer the beer is in the bottle. I've seen people post about this in the past and many responses were that it can't get a more sour taste in it the longer it bottles. I'm here to tell you it can, and if you don't believe me, come try one of my Scottish Ales.

I've had 4 beers do this, I drank the first one, got about halfway through the 2nd and 3rd. 4th one will probably just be dumped as I'm very tired of drinking this sour beer. Now I should mention this has only happened to my Scottish ale beers. I have also brewed some stouts, irish reds, porters and brown ales without getting this flavor.

So I'm hoping that maybe I'm missing something obvious as to why this is happening and one of you experts can help me out. First I do have a water profile that was done, it is a few years old but should show if there is anything glaring in it. The results of that show

pH - 8.06
Chloride - 18.6
Fluoride - 0.26
Nitrate plus Nitrate as N - 0.49
Sulfate - 42.6
Alkalinity - 268
Bicarbonate as CaCO3 - 268
Carbonate <1.00
Specific Conductance - 649
Calcium - 77.0
Magnesium - 16.4
total Hardness of CaCO3 - 260
Hardness Grains/Gallon - 15.2
Sodium - 34.5
Iron - 0.09
Manganese - 0.009
Copper - 0.031
Lead - <0.005
Arsenic - <0.005

I should also mention that I am doing all grain with a 3 tier system using gravity. I am doing batch sparging with that set-up. I have tested the pH of my mash for the last couple of batches using paper. I know people say don't use paper but convincing the wife I need a pH meter for beer won't go over well. The paper has shown the pH to be between 5.2 and 5.8 on various beers, which from what I read is in the normal range.

Also all of my sparging is done at a tempt of below 170 degrees. The mash is usually done around 154 or so (depending on the beer) and the mash rinse at around 166-168 degrees. It usually takes around 20-30 minutes once the mash is finished to slowly run it into the boil pot. While I am doing that I have been checking the gravity of the wort coming out. It is obviously hot at that time and the readings are a bit off, I did a test a while back and found with my hydrometer at those temps if it reads at 1.000 then it is really at about 1.010 at room temperature. So if the gravity goes below this amount I stop the wort and boil what I have. This has only happened once and it was right at the end of the the mash rinse anyway.

While my efficiency is a little low my starting gravity readings are coming out to about where they should. Ending gravity is also looking good after fermentation. I always taste the wort when its finished and at that time there is NO sour or bitter taste. It is just sweet wort as expected.

I also should mention that these beers tend to really foam up when opened. Especially if they are put into the fridge and not allowed to completely chill before I open them. It will foam up to the point that enough foam comes out that there is not beer left in the neck of the bottle because it all foamed out.

This is one of the reasons I am suspecting the problem could have to do with my yeast. On my Scotch ales I have been using Safale-04 yeast. Most of my other beers I use Safale-05. Could there be something to this?

Another thing Is I'm sure somebody will say, well just quit making Scottish Ales. Well that's just a damn shame, especially since my favorite style of beer is probably a Scottish ale.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something about my process but any help or insights would be greatly appreciated.

For my next try at a Scottish I'm thinking of trying two things differently. Just adding Calcium Carbonate to the mash regardless of what my paper says the pH is and using Safale-05 yeast.

 

[Mainer]

Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious, but is it possible your equipment is contaminated? What is your usual sanitization process?

EDIT: Just realized you said other styles don't come out this way, so I suppose infection is an unlikely answer.

 

[Yooper]

Forgive me if I'm asking the obvious, but is it possible your equipment is contaminated? What is your usual sanitization process?

EDIT: Just realized you said other styles don't come out this way, so I suppose infection is an unlikely answer.

I agree- except that a sour flavor that worsens and beer that foams up when opened is a classic sign of infection, probably lactobacillus.

But it makes no sense that the other beer styles show no sign at all, if done with the same equipment in the same place.

 

[chickypad]

Are you harvesting the S-04 and using it on subsequent batches or a new pack each time? I agree it sounds like infection but trying to think why it would only affect a certain style. That's some crazy alkaline water you have there, though I would think that would cause more of an astringency problem than anything.

 

[StoneIce]

I currently use PBW to clean the fermenter. Using the last of the PBW now and won't be getting it again as I don't like the cleaning process with it. The extreme hot water and time it takes is a pain. I also use a spray bottle with Star San in it to spray down anything that comes in contact with the wort. This is after everything has been cleaned. I spray on the Star San and leave it there, without washing it off.

Contamination was my first guess when it happened the first time. But after 4 times with Scotch Ales and none with anything else I don't think that's the issue.

I also forgot to mention for the last one this happened to I knew it happened before even tasting the beer. When I opened up a bottle and it was foaming I could smell it before I even tasted it. Its not a bad smell or even that strong of one, but after drinking as much of this as I have, I have a bit of a nose for it.

 

[StoneIce]

I do harvest my yeast sometimes and have done so with success. However I think all of these beers that turned sour have been done with a fresh pack, the last 2 for sure, since I've known this has been a problem with Scottish Ales I've wanted to start with what I know is clean Safale 04.

 

[Ztup]

How are you sanitizing your bottles? I still believe it is an infection. My theory is that the other ales that aren't going sour you just happened to by chance have better sanitzation on, or maybe US-05 is stronger against the infection. It could also just be that the Scotch ales are aging differently, but I've never known S-04 to sour. Is it a pleasant sour, or non-pleasant? If it's a good sour, congrats!

Also, I am a fan of the spray bottle sanitization method, but you have to be extremely thorough with it and make sure everything gets coated. I'm not sure I would do this to sanitize the bottles either, as it is hard to make sure you have everything in them covered. For bottles I am a fan of the completely submerse in a bucket of sanitizer for 30 seconds then pull out and dump the sanitizer from the bottle back in the bucket and reuse for the next bottles method. I can usually get a bunch of bottles in the bucket at once and just pull out and dump right before I fill. Once I've used all the bottles in the bucket, I refill the bucket with the bottles and repeat until I am done bottling. May seem obvious, but make sure you are sanitizing your caps too. Just dump them in a cup of sanitizer and pull out as you use them.

If you're already doing all of this, sorry to waste your time, but it seems like an infection/contamination issue to me, unless the yeast you're using has some interesting aging to it, but I've never known this to be true with S-04. On that note, maybe try a different yeast strain on your Scotch Ales also.

On the PBW note, extreme hot water is not necessary. Hot helps, but it does not need to be extreme, and if you had to you could just use room temperature, or possibly even cold water. Make sure you're using enough though. Maybe time is an issue, but I just put a scoop (tablespoon) PBW per gallon and soak overnight. All I have to do is dump and rinse. I thought PBW was expensive though, so I started making my own using the DIY recipe from here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6106809&postcount=11

 

[Hanglow]

S-04 is a lactic acid producer and can produce that classic whitbread lactic tang. Some people don't like it and some do. I wonder if its producing more as your wort is too alkaline, so it's giving a more pronounced tang than normal?

You could try a recipe the same again but with s05. Or you could look into using less alkaline water to brew with, assuming you aren't already treating your water for this

 

[tooldudetool]

Like Hanglow said, s-04 is known to have a sour tang when fermented at certain temperatures. I stopped usi g it myself for this reason. My advice would be to try a liquid Scottish ale yeast next time instead and leave everything else the same. I believe Jamil said he used safale 05 on his scottish ales, so it may also work just fine. As for the foaming, if not infection, perhaps too much priming sugar? I've also heard some yeasts when bottle conditioned with sugar can change their character a bit during the ferment during conditioning, so maybe its accentuating the 04 tang

 

[KeninMN]

I hate S-04. It has always left a bad, funky aftertaste, no matter what temperature I fermented at. I've successfully used Wyeast 1968 London ESB yeast for Scotch ales with no funky aftertaste. It also flocculates exceptionally well, leaving a nice, clear beer.

I also have no problem cleaning with PBW. Brush most of the crud out of your carboy with a carboy brush, add hot water and PBW powder and then let it sit for a day, or until you're ready to brew again. Dump, rinse, sanitize and brew. Easy peasy. I save the used PBW in a 5-gallon bucket and use it to clean my bottles, adding empties until the bucket is full and then I hit them with a bottle brush, triple rinse, dry and store. It's great for removing labels too...

 

[StoneIce]

For my bottles I make sure to rinse them out whenever I finish a beer. Then when I'm getting ready to bottle I wash them in the dishwasher with the Sani-rinse option on. It seems to me if it was the bottles then some of them might have the taste and others wouldn't since I'm always mixing my bottles with new ones I've never used before and old ones I have.

Well I have brewed beer with Safale 04 that turned out great. I had a Porter tonight that was from 04 and its good. Only thing I can think is it has something to do with the combination of the grains with the Safale 04 that just doesn't mix well with my water for a Scottish ale. So yeah, my next step will be to try a different yeast when doing Scottish Ales. I just hate doing another batch with the same recipe that I could easily end up tossing out. at this point I'm tired of that "taste" and can't even drink the stuff. by the way, here is the recipe I've used twice and it had that funky taste both times. If there's something about this recipe that may be causing it also, let me know. Thanks for the suggestions everybody.

10 lb Maris Otter
2 lb Carapils
2 lb Crystal 80
.25 lb Unmalted Roasted Barley

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

For my bottles I make sure to rinse them out whenever I finish a beer. Then when I'm getting ready to bottle I wash them in the dishwasher with the Sani-rinse option on. It seems to me if it was the bottles then some of them might have the taste and others wouldn't since I'm always mixing my bottles with new ones I've never used before and old ones I have.

Well I have brewed beer with Safale 04 that turned out great. I had a Porter tonight that was from 04 and its good. Only thing I can think is it has something to do with the combination of the grains with the Safale 04 that just doesn't mix well with my water for a Scottish ale. So yeah, my next step will be to try a different yeast when doing Scottish Ales. I just hate doing another batch with the same recipe that I could easily end up tossing out. at this point I'm tired of that "taste" and can't even drink the stuff. by the way, here is the recipe I've used twice and it had that funky taste both times. If there's something about this recipe that may be causing it also, let me know. Thanks for the suggestions everybody.

10 lb Maris Otter
2 lb Carapils
2 lb Crystal 80
.25 lb Unmalted Roasted Barley

From experience I would bet it's the S04 as others have said. The other styles may be hiding the sourness with other specialty malts and explain why you aren't getting sourness with the same yeast.

The S04 is notorious though for the acetaldehyde green apple sourness. I'll bet if you use a different English strain or an American strain you'll get better results.