Big enough box?

[JeffLacoy]

Going to start piecing together a herms setup using the craftbeerpi controller. Planning on 2 elements and a pump circuit. I see for 3 circuit set ups 12x12x6 is fairly common, but that is including the pid controllers mounted on the front as well. Just curious if a 10x10x6 is sufficient to mount the three ssr and contactors, as well as a main switch and a few indicator leds?

Complete newbie here, have not even seen an electric setup in person.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

My advice after multiple builds of my own and helping others-- always go bigger than you think you will need. Trust me!

 

[JeffLacoy]

I had already considered that possibility. I don't really know the form factor and space the components will take up, but would be nice to have the option to expand. I've learned that as well, usually cheaper to do it right the first time!

It will mainly be a junction box for relays, switches and sockets, the pi will control everything, and should handle pwm for my boil element. Will certainly be a learning experience!

 

[augiedoggy]

you wouldnt ideally use an ssr to switch the pump... just a regular 22mm 10a switch is more than enough or a mechanical relay if using a Pi or arduino... You should however use 25a or larger 2 pole relays for each element on top of the ssr and heatsink...For my sub $300 budget box in my avatar, I was able to cram all 3 of my pids,ssrs (used a dual ssr as well as a single to save space) 3 25a relays as well as a DC power supply and pwm speed controllers to control my 3 pumps along with a timer, power meter and support for my flow switches in a 12x12x8" box but If I had to do it again I think I would go bigger... in fact I did go bigger (16x16x8") on the new arduino based control panel I just built and replaced it with... but now I have control for up to 4 pumps and 4 RTD sensors. I still wish I would have used a bigger box since I have to have a separate box to control my 4 fermentors temps this way...

 

[JeffLacoy]

I'm doing a bit more research, and looks as though I will probably be running a dedicated 50a circuit to the area I will brew from, current wiring will not be sufficient, and this way I could operate both a smaller wattage element for HLT and boil element simultaneously. I'm in contact with a guy about the beerpi controller, figured I didn't need an ssr on the 120 circuit, but now I know! Was contemplating just running the pump manually anyways, as I'm not planning on doing any sort of automation, I'll be sticking to 1 pump for now and just manually moving the hoses.

I think I found a 15x12x6 box for cheap ill probably use. Planned on using 30a contactors for the element circuits, so should be covered there.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm doing a bit more research, and looks as though I will probably be running a dedicated 50a circuit to the area I will brew from, current wiring will not be sufficient, and this way I could operate both a smaller wattage element for HLT and boil element simultaneously. I'm in contact with a guy about the beerpi controller, figured I didn't need an ssr on the 120 circuit, but now I know! Was contemplating just running the pump manually anyways, as I'm not planning on doing any sort of automation, I'll be sticking to 1 pump for now and just manually moving the hoses.

I think I found a 15x12x6 box for cheap ill probably use. Planned on using 30a contactors for the element circuits, so should be covered there.

Why do you want to run the HLT element at the same time as the BK? doing back to back brewing sessions is the only reason I know of to do it... I run an 1800w rims at the same time as my 4500w HLT on my 30a circuit and use a 5500w element for the bk (when the others are off) plus i power my 4 dc pumps from it (which you could just use another 120v circuit for your pump (s) .... It works great with no limitations but I dont brew multiple batches of beer back to back either.

I use a 16relay arduino/rasberry pi board and wired it so one element can only be on at a time which is easily done with no additional hardware using the NC output of one relay to supply the other.

I use these for years now for my elements (I use the 24v coil version) http://www.ebay.com/itm/OMRON-G7L-2...114083?hash=item339883ea23:g:goMAAOSwfVpYtasR
they are a lot smaller and save space..

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Why do you want to run the HLT element at the same time as the BK? doing back to back brewing sessions is the only reason I know of to do it...

I'll throw this one out there: Heating water for cleaning while the boil is going on is another reason for running the kettle and HLT heaters at the same time. Even if you recapture your chiller water, it's not enough heat to use for a CIP cycle. It saves a lot of time in your brew day if your cleaning water is ready to go as soon as you've transferred into the fermenter.

My enclosure is an Auber 12x10x8 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=384) and it's barely enough to fit my BCS controller, two SSR's, 2 contactors, a 4 relay board, 5v power supply, circuit breakers, and the terminal blocks. I don't have any kind of display items in there, as it's simply an enclosure - my panel is an old iPad that is completely separate from the enclosure. I really wish I went bigger!

 

[augiedoggy]

I do recapture chiller water for the cleanup but since I don't have the water until after the boil is done I have nothing in there to heat until the boil is done.. I can see your point if that's your procedure... I'm still cleaning up other things while my cleanup water is heating.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I do recapture chiller water for the cleanup but since I don't have the water until after the boil is done I have nothing in there to heat until the boil is done.. I can see your point if that's your procedure... I'm still cleaning up other things while my cleanup water is heating.

Yeah, it all depends on your process and system. I clean my mash tun during the boil and the rest of my system is piping that gets CIP'd at the end so there isn't anything for me to clean once the boil is done. Heating water during the boil works for me, but I do have a 1500w heater in the HLT so it takes a while. If I had a larger one, it might heat fast enough so only heating during the chilling step would be ready after chilling. Sounds like another reason for me to start working on the next upgrade...

 

[JeffLacoy]

I hadn't considered the idea of reusing the chiller water, but that would certainly be a possibility. Im trying to make my brew process as efficient as possible ideally, so if I can save 5 minutes here, 15 minutes there, all the better. If logistically wise I lay it out and it's just not going to work, no big loss, it's only a few bucks in relays and switches, which can easily be sold.

I'm just completely foreign to any of this, so I'm unfamiliar with anyone else's trial and error. Just bouncing ideas around in my head, and certainly appreciate the feedback. I was kind of envisioning maybe a 2200-3500w element in the hlt to maintain temp, and can get a head start on my boil while I sparge. Can always preheat the strike water in the BK to avoid the lag of using the smaller element in the HLT.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

In my experience, the chiller water is hot enough to save for cleaning for about 5-10 minutes. After that, it's just not warm enough to bother collecting it. All will depend on your chiller (mine's a 1/2" copper immersion chiller), boil volume, water temps, etc. From an energy efficiency standpoint, reusing that heat is better than sending it down the drain but there is a practical limit to when it's not worth the effort. When that is is entirely up to you.

I have the 1500w heater in the HLT to keep my amperage down so I can use the RIMS while maintaining my HLT heater. The ability to boil and heat the HLT was a side benefit, not the primary design priority.

 

[augiedoggy]

In my experience, the chiller water is hot enough to save for cleaning for about 5-10 minutes. After that, it's just not warm enough to bother collecting it. All will depend on your chiller (mine's a 1/2" copper immersion chiller), boil volume, water temps, etc. From an energy efficiency standpoint, reusing that heat is better than sending it down the drain but there is a practical limit to when it's not worth the effort. When that is is entirely up to you.

I have the 1500w heater in the HLT to keep my amperage down so I can use the RIMS while maintaining my HLT heater. The ability to boil and heat the HLT was a side benefit, not the primary design priority.

I use a plate chiller and I can just dump some of it in my HLT to heat the water further after im done chilling and flush the system with that...

I do the same only by using the 1800w rims along with my 4500w HLT while recircing and heating sparge water.

 

[JeffLacoy]

In my experience, the chiller water is hot enough to save for cleaning for about 5-10 minutes. After that, it's just not warm enough to bother collecting it. All will depend on your chiller (mine's a 1/2" copper immersion chiller), boil volume, water temps, etc. From an energy efficiency standpoint, reusing that heat is better than sending it down the drain but there is a practical limit to when it's not worth the effort. When that is is entirely up to you.

I have the 1500w heater in the HLT to keep my amperage down so I can use the RIMS while maintaining my HLT heater. The ability to boil and heat the HLT was a side benefit, not the primary design priority.

So you are maintaining your mash temp with the RIMS while preheating the sparge water in your HLT? I had somewhat dismissed a RIMS setup, but after investigating the cost with setting up a herms with coil and kettle fittings, may have to rethink that. I'm assuming with a 1500 lwd or ulwd, maintaining temp is not an issue, and neither is scorching of wort?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

So you are maintaining your mash temp with the RIMS while preheating the sparge water in your HLT? I had somewhat dismissed a RIMS setup, but after investigating the cost with setting up a herms with coil and kettle fittings, may have to rethink that. I'm assuming with a 1500 lwd or ulwd, maintaining temp is not an issue, and neither is scorching of wort?

Yes, that's my process. I use a 3500W LWD heater for the RIMS and a 1500 HWD heater for the HLT. I don't need low watt density if it only contacts water - haven't found a way to scorch water yet! The 1500W heater is really short; my HLT has a conical bottom, so a short heater was desirable to keep it covered with water as long as possible. I originally sized my system for 5500W in the RIMS but that was way overkill so I dropped back to 3500W last time I overhauled my system. I never scorched the wort with 5500W LWD but my temperatures would swing a lot unless I had the max. output on the RIMS heater limited to 25%. Now with 3500W, my control is more precise and I can still do step mashes in a reasonable time.

When starting up, I fill the HLT, then transfer some water to the Mash Tun. I start recirculating the mash tun through the RIMS to pre-heat it up to my strike temperature while the HLT is slowly heating up. Mashing is done without stopping the recirculation unless I have some late mash additions to do (dark grains usually). The HLT gets to my sparge temp of 170F just about the time my mashing is done, so it works out fairly well.

My boil kettle is still 5500W, and my switches & contactors prevent running the two large heaters at the same time. Combined with the 1500W in the HLT, that's just barely below 30 amps, which I'm ok with since I don't often have both running at the same time - really only during the last bit of the boil when I'm heating up my cleaning water.

 

[augiedoggy]

So you are maintaining your mash temp with the RIMS while preheating the sparge water in your HLT? I had somewhat dismissed a RIMS setup, but after investigating the cost with setting up a herms with coil and kettle fittings, may have to rethink that. I'm assuming with a 1500 lwd or ulwd, maintaining temp is not an issue, and neither is scorching of wort?

The 1800w rims I have can increase my wort temps a full 2 degrees a minute when I step mash..

 

[JeffLacoy]

The 1800w rims I have can increase my wort temps a full 2 degrees a minute when I still mash..

Awesome. Wasn't planning on a 3rd coil, but I'll have the ability to control it so might as well. I'll only be batch sparging, so as long as the rims will maintain mash temp, that will allow me to run a big element in the hlt, and heat my sparge while I mash! Thank you guys for the input. Just picked up my 6/3 and spa panel at Home Depot. ☺️