Big Beer Questions

[brewmeister13]

I'm embarking upon my first "big" beer and am hoping to get some input during my planning phase. Specifically I have questions about mash temp and my expected final gravity.

First off let me give you the particulars. This is a RIS inspired by Mephistopheles Stout by Avery. I do not care if it is an exact clone, I just know I like it and will be using similar ingredients and numbers. The recipe is:

15 lbs/57.1% Maris Otter
1.25 lbs/4.8% Aromatic
1.25 lbs/4.8% Special B
1 lb/3.8% English Roasted Malt
.75 lbs/2.9% Black Patent
3 lbs/11.4% DME (I just can't fit enough grain in the MT)

WLP007

2 lbs/7.6% Corn Sugar (used to "feed" yeast during fermentation)
2 lbs/7.6% Turbinado (used to "feed" yeast during fermentation)

Batch size: 5.1 Gallons + .5 gallons feedings
OG: 1.114 prior to feeding/1.136 including simple sugars
FG: 1.022 as BeerSmith calculates

Mash profile is Temperature Mash 1 step with a rest at 156 for 45 minutes.

The mash temp and FG are what have me worried. I know I am feeding this a lot of simple sugars (the FG drops by 10 points with the feedings), but I am worried about mashing so much grain at such a high temperature. I fear that the yeast will just stall out with so many more complex sugars and I will be left with a beer finishing way too high. What temp have you used/ would you suggest for this?

 

[brewmeister13]

I forgot to mention, I'm pitching 1.5 mil cells/mL/•P. I'll be using oxygen to aerate and hitting it again between 12 and 18 hours.

 

[Air_Force_FE]

Throw a package of dry yeast in with your started when you pitch. Maybe the cost is what has you worried as it's an expensive beer to make. The best thing is it has a lot of flavor so you can make a few mistakes and it will still taste just fine. Big dark beers are my favorite just don't rush the fermentation left it finish completely out. Good luck bud!!!


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[masonsjax]

156 isn't a terribly high mash temp, I go as high as 162 on occasion.

Make a starter for sure, step it up to whatever mr malty suggests. Maybe use the olive oil trick. I'd also use some staged nutrient additions in the primary. Otherwise just RDWHAHB!

 

[Air_Force_FE]

What's out for hight temp make sure you adjust for grain temp in you beer smith program. It's usually spot on when mashing in. Go to a paint supply store and get a paint mixer for a drill for this mash. You'll be happy you did later. I use mine all the time.


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[Chadwick]

I agree with the comments above. You need plenty of yeasts. Lots of yeasts. A big ol' giant bunch of em.

Expect to allow this plenty of time. I recommend gently rotating the fermentation vessel (If you can) every day to give the wort a gentle stirring motion for the first 3 weeks. Don't expect to be bottling this in 2 weeks. At least 4 weeks in the fermentation vessel is recommended. Possibly more. Resist the desire to open it up to take gravity readings. That CO2 blanket is your friend. Allow it to be undisturbed as much as possible.

After bottling (assuming you bottle), plan on nothing less than 4 weeks of bottle conditioning. Be prepared to allow 8 weeks of bottle conditioning.

 

[Air_Force_FE]

Yeast started with dry yeast in it. Yeast nutrient.

http://morebeer.com/products/fermaid.html?site_id=5


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[Beernik]

That works out to 14.8% ABV. Can WLP 007 tolerate it? You might have to finish it with WLP 099.

 

[Air_Force_FE]

**** it get turbo yeast. Your almost making moonshine. Lol


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[brewmeister13]

Make a starter for sure, step it up to whatever mr malty suggests.

Personally, I prefer to use Kai's model on BrewersFriend, but point taken .

I agree with the comments above. You need plenty of yeasts. Lots of yeasts. A big ol' giant bunch of em.

I'm planning to pitch 824 Billion cells.

Maybe the cost is what has you worried as it's an expensive beer to make.

Cost is one thing, but time is what I'm really concerned about.

Expect to allow this plenty of time. I recommend gently rotating the fermentation vessel (If you can) every day to give the wort a gentle stirring motion for the first 3 weeks. Don't expect to be bottling this in 2 weeks. At least 4 weeks in the fermentation vessel is recommended. Possibly more. Resist the desire to open it up to take gravity readings. That CO2 blanket is your friend. Allow it to be undisturbed as much as possible.

After bottling (assuming you bottle), plan on nothing less than 4 weeks of bottle conditioning. Be prepared to allow 8 weeks of bottle conditioning.

I'm planning on primary for 3-4 weeks and then racking and letting it bulk age for 6 months or so. I'll keg and bottle fill from there so I don't have to hassle with re-pitching a yeast that can handle the high ABV.

 

[brewmeister13]

That works out to 14.8% ABV. Can WLP 007 tolerate it? You might have to finish it with WLP 099.

I'll find out. This guy http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/thinking-big-getting-handle-brewing-big-beers says he gets 1056 to ferment to 14-15 ABV and it is rated at 11%. I think 007 is rated at 12%.

If not 099 is my fallback plan

 

[Air_Force_FE]

No matter what your going to have a hell of a panty dropper beer.


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[Biergarden]

I noticed that you are mashing at 156f for 45 minutes. How do you assess for complete starch conversion?

 

[brewmeister13]

I noticed that you are mashing at 156f for 45 minutes. How do you assess for complete starch conversion?

I suppose iodine is out on a brew this black, but I don't really worry about it. At a higher temperature conversion will actually be faster as Alpha Amylase is favored.


Anyone else who might have some experience with what attenuation they got with 007? I'd love to see some actual numbers from the community.

 

[Biergarden]

I suppose iodine is out on a brew this black, but I don't really worry about it. At a higher temperature conversion will actually be faster as Alpha Amylase is favored.


Anyone else who might have some experience with what attenuation they got with 007? I'd love to see some actual numbers from the community.

Iodine tests are the only way you can be fully certain that your starches have converted into maltose. The iodine only needs a small amount of cooled wort on a white plate to work for you. You will see it changes to black meaning that your conversion is not complete. It will remain orange-ish if conversion is complete.
I say that is important because your mash temp is much too high to expect a complete conversion in only 45 minutes. In fact that temp has weakened the action of the alpha-amylase and stressed the beta amylase.
Fal Allen in his book Barley Wine on pg86-87 says "shoot for a mash temperature on the medium-low side between 145 to 152 f, the span in which the two enzymes, alpha-amylase and beta- amylase work most effectively together. For the maximum percentage of fermentable sugars, the mash temperature should be maintained at 145 to 146f for sixty minutes or more"
He goes on to elaborate further to cover more reasons why.
Additionally, with a gain bill that size you'll need to do a 90 minute boil to drive off the DMS that is certain to be noticeable at 60 minutes in a beer as big as this one.

 

[brewmeister13]

I say that is important because your mash temp is much too high to expect a complete conversion in only 45 minutes. In fact that temp has weakened the action of the alpha-amylase and stressed the beta amylase.

I appreciate you trying to help me out and I don't want to seem like a jerk, but this is incorrect information. While no one really seems to agree on the same optimal temperature for Alpha Amylase, they all are in the upper 150s-160's. Here are some references (including this very sites wiki):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing
http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html
http://byo.com/stories/item/1604-what-mash-temperatures-create-a-sweet-or-dry-beer
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-5.html

Fal Allen in his book Barley Wine on pg86-87 says "shoot for a mash temperature on the medium-low side between 145 to 152 f, the span in which the two enzymes, alpha-amylase and beta- amylase work most effectively together. For the maximum percentage of fermentable sugars, the mash temperature should be maintained at 145 to 146f for sixty minutes or more"
He goes on to elaborate further to cover more reasons why.

This is good advice, however, it doesn't apply here. If this were all grain my terminal gravity would be 1.032 and finish way too high mashing at 156. My recipe has 4 lbs of simple sugar, however, which will boast alcohol, feed the yeast and, as a side effect, dry this out by approximately 10 points, to 1.022. That, however, raises the attenuation to almost 82%, which I'm not sure the yeast will be up to. Their listed attenuation is 70-80%, which is why I was looking for some peoples experience with the strain.

 

[nicklepickles]

you keep saying you are "feeding the yeast" with your sugar additions. Id just like to point out you aren't feeding them, just giving them more to do. If you really wanted to feed them, in the sense of giving them nutrients, then add something like DAP or fermaid K to help it out.

 

[Biergarden]

I appreciate you trying to help me out and I don't want to seem like a jerk, but this is incorrect information. While no one really seems to agree on the same optimal temperature for Alpha Amylase, they all are in the upper 150s-160's. Here are some references (including this very sites wiki):
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing
http://realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html
http://byo.com/stories/item/1604-what-mash-temperatures-create-a-sweet-or-dry-beer
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-5.html




This is good advice, however, it doesn't apply here. If this were all grain my terminal gravity would be 1.032 and finish way too high mashing at 156. My recipe has 4 lbs of simple sugar, however, which will boast alcohol, feed the yeast and, as a side effect, dry this out by approximately 10 points, to 1.022. That, however, raises the attenuation to almost 82%, which I'm not sure the yeast will be up to. Their listed attenuation is 70-80%, which is why I was looking for some peoples experience with the strain.

If you're happy with your beer and it seems to work for you great. But my advice to you, as it is in you're links, is you mash temps are too high and too short to fully convert your starches. If you doubt that, do a starch conversion test under your normal brewing practice and you will see that at 45 minutes your iodine will be black. If you mash at 156f you will have to extend your mashing time. Certainly you're also stirring the mash periodically as well.
In the link you provided the temperatures the two years are most active are different. At 156 degrees you're slowing down ability of beta amylase convert your starches, but still will. The link mentioned that at 160 beta-amylase is shut down. Deactivated even and useless at that point.
I've made these mistakes before and learned from them, and also learned to trust the starch conversion tests. A 90 minute boil will also help drive of DMS in these big beers.
Adding sugar will add alcohol, but I'm not sure what you mean by feeding it.
You'd be best off making some inverted sugar at home. It's very easy to do and the yeast will have a better time metabolizing it. It's what I do with barleywines by adding them right into the boil.
You asked for thoughts on the yeast, but the way I see it, your yeast will perform much better if you make slight tweeks in your process. But by all means tests you mash with a starch conversion test. At least that way you will know for certain you have full control over your process.

 

[robopp]

I just brewed something similar a couple weeks ago. Granted I brew 1.2 gallons at a time but the process should be the same. For this brew I was making a 120 clone. I started off with a gravity of 1.084 and ended with a calculated gravity of 1.150. Surprisingly, I was able to continue fermentation up to approximately 17% ABV using just S-04! I started my dextrose feedings 5 days after fermentation started and continued for 7 additional days. The feedings were done once a day and the amounts were as follows - 5oz, 5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 1.25oz, respectively. To feed, I would first take a gravity reading, then mix the dextrose with the sample using a whisk. Once mixed, I'd add it back to the fermenter and give it a good stir. Additionally, on day 10 I added some yeast nutrient. It was pretty cool seeing how well the yeast held up to the alcohol but I'd be sure to have something on hand that's rated for this level of alcohol in the event the primary yeast isn't up to the task. For me, I used EC-1118.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

 

[brewmeister13]

I think I see where the confusion is. You mention that beta amylase converts starches. From what I remember beta makes maltose, but takes a long time since it cleaves along one end at a time. This takes a while for conversion. Alpha on the other hand is the main converter, cleaving randomly, but converting quickly. Granted they won't always produce fermentable sugars, but they do convert starches. I doubt either of us will convince the other, so anyways.

By "feeding" I am referring to adding simple sugars to the fermenter. It's what Dog Fish does with 120 and World Wide and Sam Adams does for Utopia. Not sure where I picked up calling it feeding, but I don't know another name for it.

I'm planning to boil for around 3 hours, however long it takes to reduce the volume down from sparging with a decent amount of water. Thanks for the suggestion.

I may just check conversion with iodine, but I was also contemplating dropping the temp a touch. When you use inverted sugar how much are you using and what are the final gravities that you are getting?

 

[Biergarden]

I just brewed something similar a couple weeks ago. Granted I brew 1.2 gallons at a time but the process should be the same. For this brew I was making a 120 clone. I started off with a gravity of 1.084 and ended with a calculated gravity of 1.150. Surprisingly, I was able to continue fermentation up to approximately 17% ABV using just S-04! I started my dextrose feedings 5 days after fermentation started and continued for 7 additional days. The feedings were done once a day and the amounts were as follows - 5oz, 5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 1.25oz, respectively. To feed, I would first take a gravity reading, then mix the dextrose with the sample using a whisk. Once mixed, I'd add it back to the fermenter and give it a good stir. Additionally, on day 10 I added some yeast nutrient. It was pretty cool seeing how well the yeast held up to the alcohol but I'd be sure to have something on hand that's rated for this level of alcohol in the event the primary yeast isn't up to the task. For me, I used EC-1118.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

What is the use of the yeast nutrient in beer? I would understand it's use in mead since honey doesn't contain any of the zinc and mg+. Wort without, tons of simple sugars, is full of it. Or maybe if the yeast you were using is old and weak maybe. All yeast nutrient is, is dead yeast.

 

[Biergarden]

I think I see where the confusion is. You mention that beta amylase converts starches. From what I remember beta makes maltose, but takes a long time since it cleaves along one end at a time. This takes a while for conversion. Alpha on the other hand is the main converter, cleaving randomly, but converting quickly. Granted they won't always produce fermentable sugars, but they do convert starches. I doubt either of us will convince the other, so anyways.

By "feeding" I am referring to adding simple sugars to the fermenter. It's what Dog Fish does with 120 and World Wide and Sam Adams does for Utopia. Not sure where I picked up calling it feeding, but I don't know another name for it.

I'm planning to boil for around 3 hours, however long it takes to reduce the volume down from sparging with a decent amount of water. Thanks for the suggestion.

I may just check conversion with iodine, but I was also contemplating dropping the temp a touch. When you use inverted sugar how much are you using and what are the final gravities that you are getting?

Yes we do agree. That was the point I was trying making re: the alpha and beta amylase.
I don't know that you'll really need to boil for three hours, I'd just to a hydrometer check after 90 minutes to see if you're near you TG and stop there.
As for the inverted sugar, I've never used table sure in beer with out inverting it first. There are some good how-tos via google and it's easier then I first thought it would be. Kinda fun too, plus you can add extra color if you prolong the heating process. I bet you already have everything you need at home to do this process. I used cream of tartar to do mine, but other people use lemon juice.

 

[brewmeister13]

I just brewed something similar a couple weeks ago. Granted I brew 1.2 gallons at a time but the process should be the same. For this brew I was making a 120 clone. I started off with a gravity of 1.084 and ended with a calculated gravity of 1.150. Surprisingly, I was able to continue fermentation up to approximately 17% ABV using just S-04! I started my dextrose feedings 5 days after fermentation started and continued for 7 additional days. The feedings were done once a day and the amounts were as follows - 5oz, 5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 2.5oz, 1.25oz, respectively. To feed, I would first take a gravity reading, then mix the dextrose with the sample using a whisk. Once mixed, I'd add it back to the fermenter and give it a good stir. Additionally, on day 10 I added some yeast nutrient. It was pretty cool seeing how well the yeast held up to the alcohol but I'd be sure to have something on hand that's rated for this level of alcohol in the event the primary yeast isn't up to the task. For me, I used EC-1118.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Nice, thanks for the advice. What was the terminal gravity that you reached? Also, what percentage of the bill did the sugar come out to be?

 

[brewmeister13]

I don't know that you'll really need to boil for three hours, I'd just to a hydrometer check after 90 minutes to see if you're near you TG and stop there.

I'm not sure if it will be 3 hours either, but I plan on sparging until the runoff is under 1.012 the pH is over 5.8 or I hit 10.5 gallons in my BK. Then I plan on boiling until it is down to 8 gallons and starting the normal boil with hops then.

As for the inverted sugar, I've never used table sure in beer with out inverting it first. There are some good how-tos via google and it's easier then I first thought it would be. Kinda fun too, plus you can add extra color if you prolong the heating process. I bet you already have everything you need at home to do this process. I used cream of tartar to do mine, but other people use lemon juice.

Yeah, I've heard table sugar isn't the best to use, but inverted is okay. I'll be using turbinado sugar (it's what Avery uses in Mephistopheles). It's an unrefined sugar and adds a bit of molasses to the taste.

 

[masonsjax]

Just another point regarding the mash times, most of the starches convert very quickly and the unconverted starch left behind after 45 mins should be negligible. I experimented quite a bit with short mashes with very good results after reading about how Lagunitas mashes at around 160F for only 20 mins. I've heard that many other breweries are doing the same and that it is much more effective than it used to be in the past due to the highly modified quality malts being produced now. YMMV

 

[robopp]

What is the use of the yeast nutrient in beer? I would understand it's use in mead since honey doesn't contain any of the zinc and mg+. Wort without, tons of simple sugars, is full of it. Or maybe if the yeast you were using is old and weak maybe. All yeast nutrient is, is dead yeast.

The yeast nutrient idea came from the Dema-goddess recipe from the book Extreme Brewing by Sam Calagione. I'm not an expert but I'll take the advice from someone who set the bar for high gravity brewing.

 

[robopp]

Nice, thanks for the advice. What was the terminal gravity that you reached? Also, what percentage of the bill did the sugar come out to be?

I hit 1.012, which has me a little worried that it might be too dry. I guess we'll see after the month long dry hopping that's currently in progress. The dextrose contributed to 21.2% of the fermentables.

 

[brewmeister13]

I hit 1.012, which has me a little worried that it might be too dry. I guess we'll see after the month long dry hopping that's currently in progress. The dextrose contributed to 21.2% of the fermentables.

Did you do a mash for this recipe or extract? If mash, what was the temperature? Thanks.

 

[robopp]

Did you do a mash for this recipe or extract? If mash, what was the temperature? Thanks.

All grain mash. I mashed in at 151 for 90 minutes with a mash thickness of 1.75qts/lb.

 

[Biergarden]

All grain mash. I mashed in at 151 for 90 minutes with a mash thickness of 1.75qts/lb.

That sounds spot on