Big batch Wort/Brewery Pump help

[mikefromcu]

I sent this post as an email to March to see if they could help, but wanted to check with you all too (so forgive the over-explanation below of some basic concepts).

I'm looking for something between the 809HS that I use on my homebrewery and a commercial $1,500 pump for my nanobrewery.

I'm using two 809's for my HLT and lauter operations, but for the big stuff, I need a big(ger) pump.

I'm looking for something comfortable with boiling temps, able to push around 60 gallons of wort at a time and specifically I have two applications:

First, immediately after the boil I need a pump that can pump the boil kettle down, into a waiting whirlpool (WP) vessel. The WP will be ported with tangential inlets in the side, the idea being that wort entering the kettle will shoot around the side and by the time all 50-55 gallons are pumped over the whole mass of wort is spinning. Doesn't need tilt-a-whirl speeds, but enough that it is effective and I don't have to stick in a paddle to coax it along.

Then, after using that same pump to pump the wort out of the WP into my fermenters, a week or two later I need this same pump to be able to pump out 50-55 gallons of freshly fermented beer into an awaiting double size (110 gallon) bright tank. The bright tank/conical that I am using is the one made by Ace Roto-Weld and is 30"dia x 56"H. It sits in a 12" high stand, so when full, the fluid level would be about 68" off the floor and I would be filling it from the bottom valve, about 12" off the floor.

Do you guys have any type of pump that is food grade, rated to that temp and can pump with enough gusto to do that - one that won't set me back a grand?

I hope so - which one? If not, is there one that you have that can be mod'ed with food grade parts to fill the bill?

Thanks in advance, and please contact me for clarification if needed. I look forward to hearing from you!

 

[Jmurm]

Sorry ive got nothin. What kind of plate chiller are you going to use? I am going to be looking for a larger plate chiller to be able to do batches like you are talking about. i have been talking to this place about getting some prices on equipment, maybe they have something. http://www.zhongdeshebei.com/eat/weiproducts.aspx

 

[mikefromcu]

I'm using a Therminator. I found that even with my 20 gallon batches that I have plenty of ice left over in my big ole chest cooler if I use hose water for 'make-up' water and have in coming into the cooler on one end of the cooler, with a submersible sump pump pushing near freezing ice water through the plate chiller at the other end.

Ican go in single pass at about a GPM from the boil kettle at ~200 to the fermenter at 66* no problem. I'm confident that even with 50 gallons of wort I can do the same with the same setup, just won't have much if any ice left over.

 

[Jmurm]

I was thinking of getting a plate chiller from this site http://www.dudadiesel.com/heat_exchangers.php
How do you keep the hops out? I am Planing to start a brewery in a few years, starting small, but want to buy some good equipment someday. I have 2 75 gallon SS wine tanks that i want to convert into a MT and BK. I was planning on using 2 propane heaters, and a rims system with about 9000W to power it. Do you have any suggestions on heating this beast?

 

[Sawdustguy]

I sent this post as an email to March to see if they could help, but wanted to check with you all too (so forgive the over-explanation below of some basic concepts).

I'm looking for something between the 809HS that I use on my homebrewery and a commercial $1,500 pump for my nanobrewery.

I'm using two 809's for my HLT and lauter operations, but for the big stuff, I need a big(ger) pump.

I'm looking for something comfortable with boiling temps, able to push around 60 gallons of wort at a time and specifically I have two applications:

First, immediately after the boil I need a pump that can pump the boil kettle down, into a waiting whirlpool (WP) vessel. The WP will be ported with tangential inlets in the side, the idea being that wort entering the kettle will shoot around the side and by the time all 50-55 gallons are pumped over the whole mass of wort is spinning. Doesn't need tilt-a-whirl speeds, but enough that it is effective and I don't have to stick in a paddle to coax it along.

Then, after using that same pump to pump the wort out of the WP into my fermenters, a week or two later I need this same pump to be able to pump out 50-55 gallons of freshly fermented beer into an awaiting double size (110 gallon) bright tank. The bright tank/conical that I am using is the one made by Ace Roto-Weld and is 30"dia x 56"H. It sits in a 12" high stand, so when full, the fluid level would be about 68" off the floor and I would be filling it from the bottom valve, about 12" off the floor.

Do you guys have any type of pump that is food grade, rated to that temp and can pump with enough gusto to do that - one that won't set me back a grand?

I hope so - which one? If not, is there one that you have that can be mod'ed with food grade parts to fill the bill?

Thanks in advance, and please contact me for clarification if needed. I look forward to hearing from you!

I think the step up from a 5 GPM March Pump would be a commercial Brewery Pump.

 

[WPStrassburg]

Take a look for March or Little Giant HC 4 and 5 series. US Plastics was the first one with a March and they are $586.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23571&catid=629
or this place
http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-9/march/Detail
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/Little-Giant-TE...temQQimsxZ20100220?IMSfp=TL100220162006r17351

Unless you go to the SS on the march it looks like they and the LG are only good to 200.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Take a look for March or Little Giant HC 4 and 5 series. US Plastics was the first one with a March and they are $586.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23571&catid=629
or this place
http://www.tescopumps.com/servlet/the-9/march/Detail
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/Little-Giant-TE...temQQimsxZ20100220?IMSfp=TL100220162006r17351

Unless you go to the SS on the march it looks like they and the LG are only good to 200.

He is looking for something between a March Pump and Commercial Brewery Pump. These 1/5 HP amd 1/8 HP pumps are not cutting it for him.

I'm looking for something between the 809HS that I use on my homebrewery and a commercial $1,500 pump for my nanobrewery.

I'm using two 809's for my HLT and lauter operations, but for the big stuff, I need a big(ger) pump.

 

[tannnick]

Look on probrewer.com in the classified sections for a pump. Something there might be a little over kill for what you are doing but you may find something for a reasonable price, and then you have room to expand. They will typically be triclover fitted, so i dont know if that is what you are using as well.

Don't mean to jack the thread but do you have a link for the bright tank/conical you are talking about? I would like to see the 110gal tank. I myself am in the process of building a 100gal system and am considering options for tanks to use, haven't had much luck on tanks here in the south. Thanks.

 

[WPStrassburg]

What are you looking at for flow? The 809 unrestricted is 4.5 gpm, a 4 is 14 gpm, 5 series is 18, and a 6 series is 30. I mix my saltwater for my reef in a 60 gallon drum and can whirlpool that with 14 gpm. Depending on the pump flow/head rating of the pump you could use an eductor/penductor in the tank to create more flow. As far as head the 5 is good to 29'(12.6psi) and 6 is 49'(21.2 psi).

I think a 6 would spin wort out of the top of the whirlpool tank, so make sure you take picts the first time you try it

 

[Jmurm]

I dont know if you would be intristed in this pump, but its in the price range, flow, and temp. http://wineryparts.com/index.php/equipment/pumps/double-diaphragm-air-pumps.html the only thing you would need to have is an air compressor. I think they would be awesome!

 

[Cliff897]

Little Giant 3-MD-HC magnetic drive pumps can handle high temps of a boil.

 

[mikefromcu]

Thanks for all your replies guys. First some replies, then I'll tell you what I'm going with:

I don't know if you would be intristed (sic) in this pump, but its in the price range, flow, and temp. http://wineryparts.com/index.php/equipment/pumps/double-diaphragm-air-pumps.html the only thing you would need to have is an air compressor. I think they would be awesome!

These would probably be OK, but are way out of the price range I want to pay. Plus, even though I own an air compressor, I don't want a compressor going off every time I drain down the pressure tank - they're loud!

I mix my saltwater for my reef in a 60 gallon drum and can whirlpool that with 14 gpm.

This is the best news I read, because the solution I'll have will do 17 gpm through 1/2". I've calculated that at about 32 fps - from what I've read ideal inlet/whirlpool speed is 12-50 fps.

Look on probrewer.com in the classified sections for a pump.

I did and the pumps there are all too commercial. If I had a 10bbl or bigger system they'd work, but I don't! ProBrewer is not geared to nano unfortunately.

From the same author who wanted to know about the 110 gallon conical:
http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=3152

I think the step up from a 5 GPM March Pump would be a commercial Brewery Pump.

I found a lot actually in the 12-29 gpm range, but you're right, it was difficult to find a good-grade version.

How do you keep the hops out?

That's one of the reasons I'm doing the whirlpool tank - if I get this right I should have a nice cone in the center of the kettle and with a side-oriented drain be able to move clear-ish wort through the chiller. Until I see how effective it is though, I will continue to use a 5-gallon paint strainer bag mounted over the kettle for hop additions to keep the majority of the hop material back in the boil kettle. I do this now with no problems through the Therminator.

OK, so after much discussion with March, I'm going with is this:
March pumps model: AC-5C-MD 115V60Hz
Max Flow: 17 G.P.M; Max Head: 27 ft.
Inlet: 1" FPT; Outlet: 1/2" MPT
HP: 1/8 (60Hz)

Though this model comes with a Polypropylene wet-end, March is making me a custom Polysulfone wet-end, rated to 250*.

 

[WPStrassburg]

This is the best news I read, because the solution I'll have will do 17 gpm through 1/2". I've calculated that at about 32 fps - from what I've read ideal inlet/whirlpool speed is 12-50 fps.

OK, so after much discussion with March, I'm going with is this:
March pumps model: AC-5C-MD 115V60Hz
Max Flow: 17 G.P.M; Max Head: 27 ft.
Inlet: 1" FPT; Outlet: 1/2" MPT
HP: 1/8 (60Hz)

Though this model comes with a Polypropylene wet-end, March is making me a custom Polysulfone wet-end, rated to 250*.

Did you factor in your head losses due to the piping and fittings? If you can use bigger than 1/2" then do it to cut friction losses, as the 17 gpm is at 0' of head loss.

Good deal that March is making a custom end for you!

 

[mikefromcu]

I didn't calc in any head loss to to piping, the pump is 1/2" out - does it make sense to port that right off the pump to 3/4", then back to 1/2" at the whirlpool inlet?

At 4' head the pump yields just under 16 gpm.

 

[WPStrassburg]

if it's a short run then don't bother. If you want every last gpm out of the pump then go to 1".

 

[Cliff897]

I didn't calc in any head loss to to piping,

Well, you must. If you are going through any appreciable amount of piping.

Just as an example in HVAC they calculate a bend in an air duct as having the same turbulent resistance as an additional fifteen feet of ducting.

Larger pipes equal greater flows not merely from size, but in great measure from reduction in turbulence. There's a larger core of laminar flow in the center of the pipe. Every bend is an uphill climb for the pump.

 

[Jmurm]

Hey when you get the pump let me know how it works, i am slowly building up towards making 50 gallon batches, and will definitely need a big pump. I just ordered parts to make a 9000W RIMS system that i will use for heating throughout the brew.

 

[mikefromcu]

No problem there, I'm ordering it this Monday.

 

[pabaker34]

Hey Mike, I have this same pump with the polypropylene wet-end. How much is the custom polysulfone costing you?

Paul

 

[Fletch]

For general info, although the Little Giant HC series say 200F max, I've used them to pump boiling temp wort for years. The one on my home rig is 8+ years old, and the one on the Club 1 barrel system, while only 5 years old, has pumped several thousand gallons of ~210 degree wort. The LGs are also a lot quieter than the March, I hate that whining noise!

 

[bendavanza]

There is a 1hp stainless pump in the classifieds here.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f16/1-hp-pump-stainless-steel-volute-166325/

 

[BrewBeemer]

Well, you must. If you are going through any appreciable amount of piping.

Just as an example in HVAC they calculate a bend in an air duct as having the same turbulent resistance as an additional fifteen feet of ducting.

Larger pipes equal greater flows not merely from size, but in great measure from reduction in turbulence. There's a larger core of laminar flow in the center of the pipe. Every bend is an uphill climb for the pump.

Thru digging many wells, adding pumps and sprinkler systems during the 77 drought in California working under a 50 year in the business shop owner there was one thing always mentioned. Take the type of pump needed for the application, use the manufactures pump specs then cut them in half for real life performance flow number at a wanted systems pressure. As posted above fluids do not like to change directions or lengths of runs, frictional losses are high bends and fitting compound the resistance in flow big time. When an homeowner insists on the smaller pump we would have it plus a larger our recommended pump, 9 out of 10 times the smaller pump one could piss a higher volume. The surprised looks on their faces.

 

[mikefromcu]

Hey Mike, I have this same pump with the polypropylene wet-end. How much is the custom polysulfone costing you?

Paul

Hey Paul, total was about 370 for that pump with the polysulfone head and a 3' cord.

How has your performance been? BBeemer suggested 'half' - that hasn't been my experience with my 309 though. I hope that's not the case. I talked to two reps at March and the home office and they all knew what I needed and backed their performance curves which they publish right on their site.

As to head loss, I'll prolly plumb through with 1" or at least 3/4" and it will be a short run, minimum bends. We'll soon see what kind of reduction I get.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Hey Paul, total was about 370 for that pump with the polysulfone head and a 3' cord.





How has your performance been? BBeemer suggested 'half' - that hasn't been my experience with my 309 though. I hope that's not the case. I talked to two reps at March and the home office and they all knew what I needed and backed their performance curves which they publish right on their site.

http://www.designworldonline.com/ar...Corrosion-Resistant--Lightweight-DC-Pump.aspx





As to head loss, I'll prolly plumb through with 1" or at least 3/4" and it will be a short run, minimum bends. We'll soon see what kind of reduction I get.

http://www.designworldonline.com/ar...Corrosion-Resistant--Lightweight-DC-Pump.aspx
I read this above pump a 12 VDC March 309 WOB-L piston pump good for up to 160 psi when this thread has been about March magnetic drive liquid pumps. This is like comparing a jet turbofan engine vs a radial piston pounder. Completly different flow rates and deductions by flow losses with these higher pressures a positive displacement pump vs a magnet drive centrifugal pump. Completely different calculated flow losses.

Using 3/4" and 1" alone would be a big advantage plus your statement about short runs will also help. With high head heights and fittings like I had I was glad to have a larger pump and throttle it down down or restrict with a bypass than have a guttless pump. March told me the same thing years ago and I as a believer of their products then purchased a couple March right on the spot. They lasted 3 minutes before I found a buyer I lucked out on selling them as they failed for my systems use big time. best of luck. I have a 71 Ford Pinto stock 2000cc it should do 230 MPH by my specs.

 

[pabaker34]

Hi Mike,

I tried mine out yesterday and it works great. I waited for the temp to drop to 180 and then started pumping. I used it to cool the wort through my new heat exchanger. I have fairly short hoses (none longer than 4 feet) and they are only 1/2". I kept the head height small as well only a couple of feet. I had to cut it down with a valve--probably two thirds closed--so that it wouldn't blast the wort through too fast. It was amazing. Still interested in the custom head, but for now I will stick with this setup.

Paul