BIAB using Bru N Water

[brew703]

When figuring water additions under the water adjustments tab, sparge water volume should be zero if I do full volume boils?

 

[soccerdad]

yes … or maybe I should say, 'that's what I do.'

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Martin has recommended that to me. BTW, I am interested in how your brew day goes. For my BIAB setup, Bru'n Water consistently recommends more acid than I actually end up using. I have communicated with Martin about this but we haven't figured out what is going on yet. Matter of fact, I am brewing today, and I'm pretty sure I won't need all the recommended amount of acid.

 

[Morrey]

When figuring water additions under the water adjustments tab, sparge water volume should be zero if I do full volume boils?

I use zero for sparge water since I do full volume mashes w/BIAB. I'll often pour 1/2 gallon of distilled water over the grain bed once I have lifted the grains out (mash out) to help rinse off any residual sugars clinging to the grains, then I simply boil off that extra water to give the target volume into fermenter. I will say I use a grain basket which allows for a better rinse than a bag unless you can hold the bag open easily.

Of course I had my full volume strike water properly adjusted so everything was in balance in the mash, so all ends up fine and your efficiency will benefit (probably not much, but some) by rinsing as mentioned.

 

[Morrey]

Martin has recommended that to me. BTW, I am interested in how your brew day goes. For my BIAB setup, Bru'n Water consistently recommends more acid than I actually end up using. I have communicated with Martin about this but we haven't figured out what is going on yet. Matter of fact, I am brewing today, and I'm pretty sure I won't need all the recommended amount of acid.

Same here. This may or not apply to you based on your situation and water sources. I use city water and sent a sample to Wards Labs. A few folks said, wow...this is darn near RO water. But I constantly was fighting ph variances. The sample I sent Wards came back 7.0 ph, so I kept that as a hard fast value in Bru'n Water. Then I tested my water one day with my ph meter and got 8.1. Hummmm. City water is all over the place with ph it seems. All "within" specs of city code, but now I adjust my ph value in Bru'n Water daily when I brew and make adjustments based on the "ph of the day".

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

I'm using RO water with a TDS of 15 PPM and pH of 8.1. Just mashed in and hit a pH of 5.33 using 1.3 ml of lactic acid (plus some mineral additions). Spreadsheet called for 5 ml.

 

[Morrey]

Wow! That's a huge difference, and I have never seen my values like that. No wonder you are concerned. After you finish your mash and before you boil, could you take another ph reading and post back? 5.33 is just about ideal so good job on your assessment.

 

[brew703]

I use zero for sparge water since I do full volume mashes w/BIAB. I'll often pour 1/2 gallon of distilled water over the grain bed once I have lifted the grains out (mash out) to help rinse off any residual sugars clinging to the grains, then I simply boil off that extra water to give the target volume into fermenter. I will say I use a grain basket which allows for a better rinse than a bag unless you can hold the bag open easily.

Of course I had my full volume strike water properly adjusted so everything was in balance in the mash, so all ends up fine and your efficiency will benefit (probably not much, but some) by rinsing as mentioned.

I use a hoist to lift my back which makes it difficult to rinse grains without the wort spilling over the sides. For that reason I don't rinse.
Possibly by end of year or beg of next I may get a new kettle with a basket vs the bag.

 

[brew703]

I usually try to get my mash ph around 5.3. In order to get that i always need to add lactic to bring it down. Another issue is my PH meter crapped out so waiting on a new one at the moment.

 

[mabrungard]

I'm using RO water with a TDS of 15 PPM and pH of 8.1. Just mashed in and hit a pH of 5.33 using 1.3 ml of lactic acid (plus some mineral additions). Spreadsheet called for 5 ml.

Is that pH measured after your wort has been well recirculated through the bag? Is the acid added to the water before the bag is placed in the water? Either of those factors would influence how applicable the pH measurements were.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Minerals and 1 ml acid added to water. Mash in, thoroughly stir, take initial reading of 5.51 pH. Add another 0.3 ml of acid, thoroughly stir, take second reading of 5.33 pH.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Wow! That's a huge difference, and I have never seen my values like that. No wonder you are concerned. After you finish your mash and before you boil, could you take another ph reading and post back? 5.33 is just about ideal so good job on your assessment.

After a 90 min mash, pH is 5.56.

 

[Morrey]

I use a hoist to lift my back which makes it difficult to rinse grains without the wort spilling over the sides. For that reason I don't rinse.
Possibly by end of year or beg of next I may get a new kettle with a basket vs the bag.

Sure. Bags are great and I use them for many purposes. Grain baskets are also great and can be custom configured for your kettle by companies like Arbor Fab. I pull the basket with a hoist and let it hang barely above the wort while pressing the grain bed with a press plate....makes no mess. Downside is the cost of the basket.

 

[Morrey]

After a 90 min mash, pH is 5.56.View attachment 578923

Looks like 1.75 to 2 mL of 88% lactic acid would have dropped you into the sweet spot had you done one adjustment prior to mashing in. You're golden.....but that is quite a long way from the 5mL called for in the program.

I will say that Martin's program has nailed my numbers time after time, so that far off is surprising.

 

[brew703]

Sure. Bags are great and I use them for many purposes. Grain baskets are also great and can be custom configured for your kettle by companies like Arbor Fab. I pull the basket with a hoist and let it hang barely above the wort while pressing the grain bed with a press plate....makes no mess. Downside is the cost of the basket.

Yeah I looked at Arbor Fab a year or so ago and felt the cost of a basket was more than i wanted to spend. If I upgrade to a new kettle I may go with the basket option, more for convenience.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Looks like 1.75 to 2 mL of 88% lactic acid would have dropped you into the sweet spot had you done one adjustment prior to mashing in. You're golden.....but that is quite a long way from the 5mL called for in the program.

I will say that Martin's program has nailed my numbers time after time, so that far off is surprising.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the pH drifted upwards during the course of the mash. So start at 5.33 is good? Or I need to start lower and let drift up to around 5.3?

 

[Morrey]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the pH drifted upwards during the course of the mash. So start at 5.33 is good? Or I need to start lower and let drift up to around 5.3?

I'm certainly no expert, but back some time ago* (beginner with water management) I made my additions with the lactic and brewing salts per the program, then read a ph of adjusted strike water something like 4.85 before mashing in. I panicked but took a leap of faith and mashed in grains (mostly light grains) if I remember correctly. When all was said and done after mashing, my ph rose perfectly to maybe 5.25. (Yes, mine rose per your comment)

What I meant was that it seems your total lactic additions may be ideal had you added perhaps 1.75mL to begin with. As the ph slowly rose during conversion, you'd potentially have been right at 5.25 or close.

*I'm remembering what happened and not numbers in specific, so your exact numbers will come from trial and error.

 

[Morrey]

Yeah I looked at Arbor Fab a year or so ago and felt the cost of a basket was more than i wanted to spend. If I upgrade to a new kettle I may go with the basket option, more for convenience.

And to be transparent, a custom "D" shaped Arbor Fab basket may run you close to the cost of the kettle. Guess it depends on what works best for you individually...but they are spendy! Your plan is a good alternative.

 

[brew703]

And to be transparent, a custom "D" shaped Arbor Fab basket may run you close to the cost of the kettle. Guess it depends on what works best for you individually...but they are spendy! Your plan is a good alternative.

I just checked Arbor Fab, would run about $300. Utah Bio has one for about half that.
Definitely not looking to spend $300--that's more than the kettle and not worth it IMO. But would consider the Utah Bio one since it's a bit cheaper and appears about the same.

 

[mabrungard]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the pH drifted upwards during the course of the mash. So start at 5.33 is good? Or I need to start lower and let drift up to around 5.3?

Not necessarily. I've found that when acidifying components (Ca and Mg salts, acids) are added to brewing liquor, the mash pH often tends to be initially low and it rises toward 5.4. When alkalizing components (lime, baking soda) are added to brewing liquor, mash pH often tends to be initially high and it falls toward 5.4. It seems to be due to extract being drawn out of the kernels into the wort and that extract buffers the pH.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Not necessarily. I've found that when acidifying components (Ca and Mg salts, acids) are added to brewing liquor, the mash pH often tends to be initially low and it rises toward 5.4. When alkalizing components (lime, baking soda) are added to brewing liquor, mash pH often tends to be initially high and it falls toward 5.4. It seems to be due to extract being drawn out of the kernels into the wort and that extract buffers the pH.

So in the former case, I should have started lower than 5.33 in order to rise to 5.4?

Edit: Now I'm over-thinking this -- pretty sure I am using the Bru'n Water sheet to determine my starting pH, which was 5.33 and in the green zone. [emoji12]

 

[Morrey]

Edit: Now I'm over-thinking this -- pretty sure I am using the Bru'n Water sheet to determine my starting pH, which was 5.33 and in the green zone. [emoji12]

Exactly. You got it!

 

[ajdelange]

For my BIAB setup, Bru'n Water consistently recommends more acid than I actually end up using. I have communicated with Martin about this but we haven't figured out what is going on yet. Matter of fact, I am brewing today, and I'm pretty sure I won't need all the recommended amount of acid.

Some HBT'ers posting in the thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...alidity-of-available-mash-ph-software.652095/ have discovered that Bru'n water apparently produces acid addition numbers that make no sense when mash thickness is high. They find that it tells them to use a little too much acid when mash thickness is nominal but to use less and less as more grain is added to the same amount of water. I don't have the program (Mac guy who has gotten sick of fiddling with Parallels) so I haven't observed this myself but I think that until an adequate explanation (which may be "you aren't using the program correctly") or fix is offered brewers should use another program or programs at least as sanity checks on Bru'n water.

 

[ajdelange]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the pH drifted upwards during the course of the mash. So start at 5.33 is good? Or I need to start lower and let drift up to around 5.3?

There is an equilibrium pH which depends on the amount and buffering properties of each of the malts, the alkalinity of the water and any acids or bases added to the water or mash. A robust pH prediction program will give you a pretty good prediction of what that pH is but you will never actually reach it as the reactions take quite a while to complete and before they do you change the rules by sparging, boiling, adding kettle salts...

In the most common case you will have put some acid into your brewing liquor. When you add it to your grist, mix it up well and then take an early sample of the liquid you are measuring the pH of acidified water more than that of a mix of acidified water and malt as the malt alkalis haven't had time to absorb the protons from the acid. Thus an early pH reading may be startlingly low. As time progresses the liquid penetrates the grist and the reactions take place. The pH moves towards the equilibrium and the rate of change slows.

If you used base (sodium bicarbonate) in your water exactly the same thing happens but this time your pH meter will at first, read the pH of the basic bicarbonate solution at first which may be startlingly high. It then falls towards the equilibrium pH.

Martin seems to think that malt naturally buffers at pH 5.4. Anyone who has ever looked at a malt titration curve can see that that is not the case. Malt is a mix of so many acids that it doesn't exhibit the tendency to buffer at any particular pH the way the pH 7 buffer, for example, we use to check our meters does. But if one wants to press the issue and calculate buffering capacity of, for example, Weyermann's Pilsner malt he find that it has 45% more buffering capacity at pH 5, for example, than it does at pH 5.4. The reason Martin is seeing a trend towards pH 5.4 is because he is working with mashes that have equilibrium pH's near 5.4 which, as that is probably the most common target pH, is not surprising. If working with a mash with equilibrium pH 5.3 observed pH won't trend towards 5.4. I've explained this so many times that it probably should be in a Sticky but there are getting to be too many of those already.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Still reading other thread...

 

[stella_tigre]

I just checked Arbor Fab, would run about $300. Utah Bio has one for about half that.
Definitely not looking to spend $300--that's more than the kettle and not worth it IMO. But would consider the Utah Bio one since it's a bit cheaper and appears about the same.

We got a bayou classic b144 (stainless steel) which fits nicely in the 10 gal kettle, but still works fine in the 20. Put our brewing bag in the basket after heating to strike temp. Lets us use a hoist to pull it up, then we have a rack we slip under the basket to hold it above the kettle for rinsing and squeezing. Swing it over into a smaller kettle if we want to rinse it out a bit.

As for water, I've been finding our pH sort of low using B'run water but that reading is 15 minutes into the mash. Might have to try waiting a bit longer and see what happens.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Still reading...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

As for water, I've been finding our pH sort of low using B'run water but that reading is 15 minutes into the mash. Might have to try waiting a bit longer and see what happens.

I take pH readings 20 minutes into the mash. But I also mix in salts and acid a few hours before mashing in. I find that sampling consistency is important when comparing predicted to actual pH measurements.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

And I have finished the other thread. And I now remember why I got a D in my freshman chemistry class.

So I think the critical item in that other thread in relation to this thread is at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...e-mash-ph-software.652095/page-3#post-8341815. Specifically,

That is, the doubling of water volume (as in full volume BIAB) should not require a doubling of lactic acid. I have brewed 13 times now with Bru'n Water and the acid was double or more than I required in 12/13 cases (the 1 exception was a porter that required no acid additions and BW was spot on).

So do I stick with the following practice?: 1) Use BW to determine mineral additions for given color or city profile, 2) take the acid amount with a pinch of salt (ugh), 3) add a conservative amount of acid to the mash water, 4) mash in, 5) take an early pH reading and 6) add small amounts of acid if req'd to reach desired ph?

 

[brewbama]

I use distilled water with mineral additions, full volume, no sparge, continuous recirculation, step mashes with a RIMS tube and have found Bru’n water to be very very close to my 20 min sample. Not sure why others are so far off.

While I have read the other thread, I’ll say it’s all theory until someone takes enough actual samples from real brews to find out if the mental experiment conclusion is reality. Doing a paper experiment and playing gotcha is a bit premature. Once real data comes in we should react.