BIAB Issues

[jspatrick]

Howdy All,

First, since this is my first post, I'll quickly introduce myself! My name is J.P., I'm currently a graduate student living in Menlo Park just south of San Fran, and after brewing about 12 successful extract batches I've moved to BIAB AG.

Well...sort of. I've tried two BIAB batches and both have been disasters. In fact, I tried to do an AG version of this Citrus Bomb IPA which had gone beautifully as an extract recipe.

The AG version is having the following issues:
1. My efficiency is extremely low (~50%)
2. After several days in the fermenter, a sample taste has an incredibly bitter after-taste. It takes several seconds before the bitterness kicks in, and then it is awful. The antithesis of a clean finish.
3. The color and clarity seems off. The color is super light, and almost a little on the greenish side of yellow. Not the warm, "golden" color I expect. It's extremely hazy even after letting any grain material settle. I can hardly see my hydrometer in the sample tube.

Process has been as follows:
1. Heat to strike temp calculated in Beer Smith (Something like 160 degrees for the grain bills I used)
2. Add grain. Temp dropped to 152 based on a digital thermometer, so should be accurate.
3. Stir like crazy for 5 minutes.
4. Cover with a few blankets to maintain temp
5. Stir every 20 minutes through a small hole in the lid to try and keep the temperature even within the kettle
6. After 75 minutes, heat to 170. This took about another 10 minutes.
7. Rest for 10 minutes. So total time now is 95 minutes.
8. Lift the bag and trade off between [good] friends to keep it held for about 10 minutes to drip
9. Measure gravity and then proceed to boil as usual.

My hunch:
After doing some reading, I think I might be extracting a ton of tannin due to a high mash pH. I have a pH meter coming in the mail to check ($15 on Amazon, seemed worthwhile versus test strips).

It seems odd though since I have read several "how do do BIAB" articles and none of them mentioned adjusting the mash pH. Any a lot of the responses to the BIAB pros/cons threads have been things like "BIAB is great and my efficiency is 80%." I read this with a mix of skepticism and awe given my struggle. Nobody in the LHBS mentioned adjusting the pH (though they might have a different water supply). So a part of me wonders how my results could be this bad given the apparent lack of hoopla over mash pH adjustments.

My question:
Does this sound right? Could something else be going on here? Is that bitter aftertaste a tannin taste? I am going to give it another go with some 5.2 stabilizer, but I would love to hear if anything else jumps out before I waste any more days and dollars.

Thanks everyone!

 

[jtratcliff]

Don't waste your money on the 5.2. All I've read about here on HBT points to it not doing what it claims.

For BIAB efficiency, a fine crush is your friend... Did you crush your own, or use the LHBS crush?

You also don't really need to do the mash out step, heating to 170... You should be cranking the heat when you pull your bag. The mash out is mostly to denature enzymes to lock in the mash profile during long fly sparging. With batch sparging and BIAB, you're not spending a whole lot of extra time during the sparge, so you're not getting excess conversion.

What's your OG? Did you compensate for low efficiency somehow (longer boil? DME?) Did you dump all the trub into the fermenter? How many days in the fermenter? Is fermentation complete? It should drop clear once the yeast stop stirring things up.

 

[McKnuckle]

You didn't mash at a high temp. 152 is right in the middle. And a 170 mashout, while unnecessary as noted, is also not a problem.

BIAB is all-grain brewing, and in all types of all-grain brewing, mash pH and water quality are critical factors. So the "how to do BIAB" articles are not focusing on that per se. They have other specific details to cover. Water quality is universal to AG brewing.

What is your water source? A high mash pH is common in pale beers where brewers previously unfamiliar with water treatment just "wing it." This is because for whatever reason, high residual alkalinity is present in many people's water supply. A high mash pH is documented to cause low efficiency and, most importantly, that gross bitter flavor you reference.

(Also, a reminder: don't judge the beer on its taste while its full of suspended yeast in the fermenter. That's almost always a yuck situation.)

It's almost a guarantee that you are not dealing with tannin; you are dealing with high mash pH. Until you get that sorted, any method of AG brewing will be problematic for you. The rumors of high efficiency with BIAB are plain truth. There's nothing very special about it - it uses a bag as a grain filter rather than a manifold or false bottom. Not magic.

 

[RM-MN]

The first three thing that come to mind when someone mentions low efficiency are crush, crush, and crush. Everything else is low on the list. Your water pH may be a bit high but without doing a mash out, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Your bitterness is due to the low OG. You don't have enough malts to offset the bittering. Once you get the efficiency up, the balance will be there.

I can't hold the bag for long so I set it on/in something. In my case I have another bowl sitting alongside the pot and set a colander in that to hold the bag and let it drain. I return the collected wort to the kettle often as it drains so the bag of grains isn't sitting in the wort. Others have used a grate from a gas grill to set over the pot and that holds the grain bag for them and still others use a rope and suspend the bag using a pulley so it drains/drips into the pot. With any of those methods you can do a pour over sparge to gain a little more efficiency(5 to 10%). If you set the bag into a bucket (clean, food safe) you can do a dunk sparge if you want.

 

[McKnuckle]

Your bitterness is due to the low OG. You don't have enough malts to offset the bittering. Once you get the efficiency up, the balance will be there.

Maybe. It's a valid reason for sure. But the mash pH is a huge factor in gross, rather than appropriate, bitter flavors. It can't be dismissed. Especially because it also affects efficiency! Less than 50% eff. is pretty hard to get even with poorly crushed grain. When water chemistry also becomes a factor, all bets are off.

My first AG recipe was the most basic thing ever. All US 2-row with Hallertau hops (go figure) and WLP-001. I always wonder why brewers go for complex beers when first trying AG. But to the OP, I would try a really simple recipe the next time you brew.

 

[Homercidal]

Mash pH is always a concern no matter what method of All Grain brewing you are doing. People don't discuss it when discussing BIAB because it's not specifically a BIAB concern.

What will change between BIAB and other systems is making sure you understand that your mash pH will be affected by how much water you use. Some people who BIAB use the full volume of water, meaning no sparge water. If you sparge, then you need to calculate the mash and sparge mineral additions separately, as the mash pH will only be affected by the mash water.

Depending on where you live, your water may be terrible for pH, but that hardly accounts for such a poor quality brew. Forget the 5.2 stuff. It's really worthless for most people. Best thing would be to have your water tested and make adjustments yourself for pH. While I encourage you to have your water checked, or even to use RO water, I think you need to focus on crush for improvement in efficiency. Also make sure you understand efficiency. It's easy to take a wrong reading, or to mis-interpret something.

Lastly, don't worry about the mashout temp. Just rest for the duration, and then pull the bag and crank the heat. There is no need for a mashout on a small brewery, and especially a batch sparge system or BIAB.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Agree with the crush issue,If you plan on sticking with AG buy a mill.The cereal killer mill works great and cost around $100.With a mill you can buy in bulk(50 LB bags) at you LHBS.It usually comes out to less then 1/2 price for the grain and will pay for itself in no time..As far as having your friends lifting the bags that's just silly..a large step ladder with a rope down the center is all you need for a pully setup. I made this for cheap and makes things very easy...Buy/make the correct stuff now so your brew days will be more enjoyable and easy.Your gunna buy it eventually anyway,might as well start with it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508766

 

[jspatrick]

Thanks for the replies everybody!

In my first attempt, my OG was super low and I just dumped the batch. On the second attempt, I added a few extra pounds of pale malt to compensate. In this second batch, my OG is not *that* far off at 1.060, but I still get that super bitter after-taste. I left behind some of the trub in the kettle, but a lot made it into the fermenter. It's been in there for about 4.5 days now, and the airlock bubbles once every 20 seconds or so. The first three or four seconds taste fine - it is after I've swallowed that this incredibly harsh and lingering bitterness sets in. I'm now thinking its a combination of pH issues and leaving a bunch of sugar in the bag since I didn't sparge and didn't let it drip very long.

On crush: I had it done at the LHBS. We ran it through the mill twice, and I didn't notice any un-cracked kernels. But then again, I just kind of glanced at it quickly. I will definitely be mindful of this next time.

On water: My water source is tap water from my kitchen. Kind of a bummer to hear about the 5.2 stabilizer since I already bought it (it was mentioned in Palmer's book). What's the best alternative to adjust the pH? Are there any other major adjustments I should make? The water tastes fine - I drink it at home from the tap without filtering.

On process: I'm trying again this weekend, and have a grill grate + a turkey fryer basket to set the bag in over the pot. This time I'll do a sparge with a couple gallons and see how that affects things.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[jspatrick]

If you plan on sticking with AG buy a mill.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508766

I understand the cost issue, but my main concern is storage space (which is why I elect for BIAB). I live in a small apartment that I share with my lovely-but-not-that-into-my-beer-hobby fiancee, and neither of us really want beer stuff littering the kitchen. I try to keep a setup that I can pack into a small space and store in our equally small closet.

Shouldn't the milling by the LHBS be sufficient? Will I really get a *better* crush from my own mill?

 

[shetc]

Hi J.P - I highly recommend this site http://biabrewer.info/. Following the information there, I have had success doing BIAB from the very first batch. The typical efficiency is 84% without special crushes, etc.

 

[Homercidal]

On water: My water source is tap water from my kitchen. Kind of a bummer to hear about the 5.2 stabilizer since I already bought it (it was mentioned in Palmer's book). What's the best alternative to adjust the pH? Are there any other major adjustments I should make? The water tastes fine - I drink it at home from the tap without filtering.

On process: I'm trying again this weekend, and have a grill grate + a turkey fryer basket to set the bag in over the pot. This time I'll do a sparge with a couple gallons and see how that affects things.

Thanks again everyone.

Drinking water can taste great and still be "not that good" for brewing. If your water contains a high amount of alkalinity you may not make good Pale beers. High pH and high temp can cause astringency during the sparge, which can lead to a harsh bitterness, a kind of drying sensation.

I don't think your efficiency is due to poor water. But poor water may be a reason for the flavor you are getting.

When I brew I start with RO water (usually), and add various minerals (Salts) to increase the mineral content to get a pH that is good for the mash, and good for flavor. In a nutshell the process is:

1. Calculate your recipe, including how much water you will need to the mash and the sparge.
2. Input your water profile (or simply enter RO, or ZERO if using RO/Distilled water) and your grain bill.
3. adjust the mineral and acid additions until you get a pH and a flavor profile you want. (I use Bru'nwater spreadsheet.)
4. Measure and add minerals/acid to kettle. Add the amount of water calculated for the recipe.
5. Brew beer.

I usually add a couple of tsp. of Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) and some Calcium Chloride to the kettle. Usually a few ml of Phosphoric acid. You can use Acid Malt or Lactic acid instead if you prefer. I like Phos because it's flavorless at brewing levels and easy to handle.

The problem with tap water is you generally don't know exactly what's in it without testing. Even then it can change seasonally. With RO water it's pretty inexpensive, and you can easily create the profile you want, and how much you use won't change next time. You can store the additions right with the recipe for later.

 

[Homercidal]

And, yes, your local store may not have a good crush. They may or may not have it set to any particular usefulness, or they may be set coarse to appeal to a wider range of brewers. Most non-BIAB brewers have to be wary of a fine crush causing a stuck sparge. Plus, a coarse crush means less efficiency, which means more grain to be purchased, which is good for the store.

So, yes, having your own mill means getting as fine a crush as you want. If you don't want to own your own mill, maybe ask the store to reset the mill a bit finer.

 

[slym2none]

Shouldn't the milling by the LHBS be sufficient? Will I really get a *better* crush from my own mill?

HB stores are kind of caught in the middle nowadays, concerning crush. They usually will not adjust their mills for each customer. People with "traditional" systems need a crush not so fine so they don't get stuck sparges, but BIAB'ers need it crushed almost to flour, which a "traditional" system can't handle. My LHBS only offers the option to crush the grains twice, which helps some (I do see a bit more flour over a single crush) yet I still have a lot of "whole" pieces in there as well. (I put whole in quotations because, for the most part, the grains are cracked or crushed, just not broken up.) My mash is therefore a bit longer than most, as I need time for the water to get into the grain & gelatinize the starches within. Still, having such large pieces, I imagine my efficiency isn't as good as it could be, as even with stirring & a dunk sparge, I bet I am not getting all the starch/sugars out of said large pieces.

So yes, your efficiency will jump up just by getting your own mill. I get 65-70% BH efficiency for the most part, but I do jump north of 75% sometimes, as evidenced by a recent DIPA that I had calculated to just over 8%ABV and it ended up right at 9%. Lot of BIAB'ers get 80% regularly, or even higher.

 

[McKnuckle]

By now you're noticing that there isn't too much pure gospel in home brewing. Everyone has different impressions, and people make things work for their situations, budgets, and tolerance of various processes.

I have a Schmidling Malt Mill which is set to a fixed roller gap - I cannot adjust the rollers. So I cannot crush to flour. I crush like any other person who bought that popular mill would. I mill my grains once and call it good.

I brew BIAB and dial my recipes in for 77% mash efficiency. My brewhouse figure is just a hair lower. My mash efficiency has been in the range of 74-84 over the past dozen batches; most are 76-79.

So my point is that, with a decent, average crush, and a healthy mash pH, I am doing just fine. You can, too.

 

[jspatrick]

When I brew I start with RO water (usually), and add various minerals (Salts) to increase the mineral content to get a pH that is good for the mash, and good for flavor. In a nutshell the process is:

I'm going to go this route on the next brew. Do you buy that water at the grocery store? Sorry to be pedantic, I had never heard the term "RO water" until now .

I found the Menlo Park water profile here. My uninformed impression is that the alkalinity, pH, and hardness ranges seem pretty large? Sounds like RO water at least gives me a known starting point.

So, yes, having your own mill means getting as fine a crush as you want. If you don't want to own your own mill, maybe ask the store to reset the mill a bit finer.

Alright, you guys convinced me. I ordered a Cereal Killer.

So hopefully all these things arrive by Saturday and I can make the following adjustments on Sunday Funday:

• Start with RO water
• Get a finer grain crush at home
• Rest the bag in a turkey basket on a grate on the pot after the mash
• Sparge to rinse the grains

Hopefully the water changes the taste and the crush improves the efficiency

 

[Homercidal]

I didn't see anything about your water that makes it bad for brewing pale beers. There is some Chloramines, and whatnot. You may want to add a 1/2 of a Campden tablet per batch to neutralize it. Even after going through an RO filter system you can have chloramines. It takes a lengthy pass through an activated charcoal filter to remove it. Campden tablets are pretty much instantaneous.

 

[theseeker4]

I'm going to go this route on the next brew. Do you buy that water at the grocery store? Sorry to be pedantic, I had never heard the term "RO water" until now .

I found the Menlo Park water profile here. My uninformed impression is that the alkalinity, pH, and hardness ranges seem pretty large? Sounds like RO water at least gives me a known starting point.



Alright, you guys convinced me. I ordered a Cereal Killer.

So hopefully all these things arrive by Saturday and I can make the following adjustments on Sunday Funday:

• Start with RO water
• Get a finer grain crush at home
• Rest the bag in a turkey basket on a grate on the pot after the mash
• Sparge to rinse the grains

Hopefully the water changes the taste and the crush improves the efficiency

You don't want to use RO water alone, you will need to add minerals to it for it to make decent beer.

 

[McKnuckle]

The most basic mineral "kit" for a pale beer using RO water are gypsum and calcium chloride (CaCl), both salts. If you get into dark beers, add baking soda to the mix. You can make a water profile for nearly any style with just these three. Lactic acid comes in handy, but much less often.

If you brew with your tap water again, definitely treat it for chloramines as Homercidal said. That could also be a factor in the bad taste.

 

[brewprint]

What caught my eye is on a post where you said you're stirring through a small opening. What exactly does that mean? When I stir I remove my lid entirely and stir the heck out of it.

Crush may or may not make a difference. I certainly wouldn't go out and buy a mill unless it's something that you want. Ask them to double crush it. To be honest I never really saw a difference when I got a mill compared to a double crush.

Ph may come into consideration but I've never done it. I'm going to start though because I think it may be the missing link in achieving exact efficiency instead of 70-80%.

You also mentioned the bitterness. The reason is because the IBUs weren't balanced. Someone else basically said that. Let the beer sit longer and it will fade.

 

[brewprint]

Also, do you have a ladder? I would highly recommend that along with a pulley to hold the bag. A grate or holding the bag sounds like a serious hassle and potential mess to me.

 

[Aristotelian]

If you brew with your tap water again, definitely treat it for chloramines as Homercidal said. That could also be a factor in the bad taste.

If his water was the source of the bitterness, wouldn't he have gotten it in his extract batches?

 

[McKnuckle]

If it was chloramines, yes. High mash pH, no - because there's no mashing in extract brewing.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for the replies everybody!

In my first attempt, my OG was super low and I just dumped the batch. On the second attempt, I added a few extra pounds of pale malt to compensate. In this second batch, my OG is not *that* far off at 1.060, but I still get that super bitter after-taste. I left behind some of the trub in the kettle, but a lot made it into the fermenter. It's been in there for about 4.5 days now, and the airlock bubbles once every 20 seconds or so. The first three or four seconds taste fine - it is after I've swallowed that this incredibly harsh and lingering bitterness sets in. I'm now thinking its a combination of pH issues and leaving a bunch of sugar in the bag since I didn't sparge and didn't let it drip very long.

On crush: I had it done at the LHBS. We ran it through the mill twice, and I didn't notice any un-cracked kernels. But then again, I just kind of glanced at it quickly. I will definitely be mindful of this next time.

On water: My water source is tap water from my kitchen. Kind of a bummer to hear about the 5.2 stabilizer since I already bought it (it was mentioned in Palmer's book). What's the best alternative to adjust the pH? Are there any other major adjustments I should make? The water tastes fine - I drink it at home from the tap without filtering.

On process: I'm trying again this weekend, and have a grill grate + a turkey fryer basket to set the bag in over the pot. This time I'll do a sparge with a couple gallons and see how that affects things.

Thanks again everyone.

The taste you get while the beer is still fermenting is far from what you get when it is completly fermented out, carbonated, and matured a bit. Don't be too quick to judge this beer.

 

[RM-MN]

So hopefully all these things arrive by Saturday and I can make the following adjustments on Sunday Funday:

• Start with RO water
• Get a finer grain crush at home
• Rest the bag in a turkey basket on a grate on the pot after the mash
• Sparge to rinse the grains

Hopefully the water changes the taste and the crush improves the efficiency

Add a longer mash period to the above list. You may not be getting complete conversion because all the starch hasn't become gelatinized and a longer mash may help compensate for that. If not, don't do it again.

 

[jspatrick]

What caught my eye is on a post where you said you're stirring through a small opening. What exactly does that mean? When I stir I remove my lid entirely and stir the heck out of it.

My kettle has a little rubber stopper to keep the lid on when chilling (there is a 2x2 inch notch cut of out the side of the lid). I keep the lid on and stick my paddle in there and agitate it. My goal here is simply to move the water around to keep the temperature even throughout the kettle since it seems to stratify over time. I keep the lid on to try not to let much heat out. I've read a mixture of opinions on whether it's necessary to stir at all during the mash - some claim to just let it sit for 60 minutes. I do stir the heck out of it when I mash in, though.

 

[jspatrick]

The taste you get while the beer is still fermenting is far from what you get when it is completly fermented out, carbonated, and matured a bit. Don't be too quick to judge this beer.

I agree, and I am just keeping my fingers crossed for something drinkable. But I don't have a lot of hope to be honest - this aftertaste is almost a burning sensation. It is that bad

 

[jspatrick]

Also, do you have a ladder? I would highly recommend that along with a pulley to hold the bag. A grate or holding the bag sounds like a serious hassle and potential mess to me.

I don't have a ladder unfortunately or I would hang it. Obviously holding the bag sucks, so I'm not gonna do that anymore. But I think all I'll need to do to clean up after this is rinse the grate and basket - not too bad IMO.

 

[brewprint]

I don't have a ladder unfortunately or I would hang it. Obviously holding the bag sucks, so I'm not gonna do that anymore. But I think all I'll need to do to clean up after this is rinse the grate and basket - not too bad IMO.

Haven't you ever needed a ladder? If so it's a good excuse to go get one.

 

[rgreenberg2000]

Hey, JS, I'm in Redwood City. If your mill doesn't show up in time, give me a holler, you are welcome to borrow mine. If you ever want to join in on a brew day, let me know. I typically follow a "traditional" AG routine, but have been dabbling with BIAB recently as well (with virtually the same efficiency as my 3-vessel set up.

BTW, I'm guessing your LHBS is MoreBeer in Los Altos? I've brewed many a batch using their mill set up with no issues......

Rich

 

[wilserbrewer]

As said above, tasting and troubleshooting your beer after 4 1-2 days in the fermenter is 2-3 weeks too soon.

The taste will change drastically, if there was ever a time to RDWHAHB, it's now lol

Please call back in 3 weeks.

Examine your crush closely, are there whole kernels of barley present?

Also guessing your LHBS may be under crushing. Just a hunch.

 

[casualbrewer]

Crush is a major factor... However if you just let it drip then you left a lot on the table. Need to rig up a system to let your bag hang and then squeeze the life out of it. Should get 70's efficiency easily then. Or you could try a pour over sparge.

 

[jspatrick]

Hey, JS, I'm in Redwood City. If your mill doesn't show up in time, give me a holler, you are welcome to borrow mine. If you ever want to join in on a brew day, let me know. I typically follow a "traditional" AG routine, but have been dabbling with BIAB recently as well (with virtually the same efficiency as my 3-vessel set up.

BTW, I'm guessing your LHBS is MoreBeer in Los Altos? I've brewed many a batch using their mill set up with no issues......

Rich

Hey Rich,

Thanks a bunch for the offer. I'd love to join in on a brew day. I'll send you a PM to get connected.

You got it, MoreBeer it is. Are you using their mill for BIAB? If not, are you more finely crushing with your mill at home?

 

[cvillehokie]

Crush is a major factor... However if you just let it drip then you left a lot on the table. Need to rig up a system to let your bag hang and then squeeze the life out of it. Should get 70's efficiency easily then. Or you could try a pour over sparge.

^ This.

50% means your calculations are off, or you left a lot of high gravity wort in the bag. I'm no scientist, but I think if your water is good enough to drink, then don't worry about PH unless you're fine-tuning beers.

FWIW - I mash 90 minutes, boil 90 minutes, and use biabrewer.info's calculator. When I didn't know what I was doing, I was low 70 efficiency, now I'm high 70's.

 

[Foosier]

JS, The water reports you get from the city do not really provide enough info for brewing. Luckily, you are in a major metro area and other brewers near you have posted their "Ward's Lab" (Brewing water information) reports. Check out this thread. It has a number of water reports for your area. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=247319

 

[rgreenberg2000]

You got it, MoreBeer it is. Are you using their mill for BIAB? If not, are you more finely crushing with your mill at home?

I haven't used their setup for AG (BIAB or otherwise) since I acquired my own mill. I brewed many successful batches using their mill, with essentially the same efficiency that I get now. I don't adjust my mill for BIAB specifically, I use the same crush regardless of how I'm brewing. I'm still somewhat new to BIAB, but my opinion is that if you have a decent sparge process (that doesn't defeat the simplicity of the process with BIAB), then you don't need to turn your grain to flour (kidding, here, though I have seen people who essentially do that.) My current method is to remove the bag (I have a Wilserbag set up with pully), squeeze the bejeezus out of it, then drop it in a bucket where I pour my sparge water over it, one more squeeze and all of that goes back in the boil pot......

I can tote my BIAB set up to Menlo Park sometime and we can run a brew. It's minimal equipment, so "portable". Shoot me a PM.

R

 

[chickypad]

If you're on the peninsula then you should have Hetch Hethcy water like the rest of us, which is very low in minerals and alkalinity. My ward lab reports over the last few hrs have had Ca, SO4, Sodium, chloride, Mg all in single digits and bicarb in the 12-28 range. You will need acid for pale beers but likely not too much. You should be okay following the water primer instructions with your tap water until you get up and running with your pH meter and a water program. I would treat with campden though for sure.

 

[Rhaop]

Skimmed through the posts but my only problem so far, when i switched from a 3 vessel to BiaB i started getting astringency in my lighter beers so I started testing my water and using ez water to calculate calcium chloride and acid malt additions my beers have much improved

I got the basic gh and kh water test kit and followed the instructions on braukasier.com cost me about $6