BIAB Disadvantages to go with the Advantages thread.

[Yesfan]

Biggest issues for me were the bags. Cleaning the bags were a bitch with all the grain particulates stuck in them. With my mash tun I can just hose it out and I'm done. The bags, that I used anyways, also never seemed to last. I would always get a hole torn in them at some point no matter how gentle I'd stir the mash. I also hated having to lift the bag and could never get a hoist setup with my garage nor wanted to take the time to buy/install one. I also didn't have to splurge for a 20g kettle if I wanted to do 10 gallon batches. I definitely had no desire to lift and drain 16-24lbs of wet grains for a 10g batch. Been brewing with 3 vessels a lot longer than when I was with BIAB and have no regrets so far.


3Ver for life. LOL!

 

[Gruel]

Recently I tried brewing in a bag without my sparge manifold (slotted copper tube) at the bottom of my mashing & laeutering pot. The wort contained way too much solid matter after removal of the bag (about three to four times as much as with laeutering settled at the bottom of my fermenter). I also didn't like wasting the sugar stuck in the bag, despite squeezing & collecting the drip-off. The specific gravity of the liquid dripping off the bag was significantly higher than what I usually get at the end of sparging (1.02 to 1.01).

For my last wheat beer, I then used the bag in addition to my usual setup. Sparging seemed to take significantly more Vorlauf than without a bag, i.e. the wort drawn from the sparge manifold was cloudy for a longer time. I don't know why that would be the case, but I assume the forming of the grain bed doing the filtering doesn't work as well with the bag mesh between the grain and the slotted tube.
The bag did simplify cleanup after sparging. I found the bag was a bit scorched/molten to the pot where it was draped over the edge of the pot - I do step meshes on a gas stove.

So, to summarize:

• cleanup is simpler
• I find sparging is still necessary
• and one has to be careful with applying heat when step mashing on an open gas burner, to avoid melting the bag.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

No

 

[RM-MN]

I found the quality with BIAB to be very good. Easily as good as my igloo cooler I used to use. However the igloo was much easier to clean than my particular bag was...

Cleaning the bag is easy. I dump the grains out, turn the bag inside out and shake it, then turn it back and give it a rinse. There is no need to get all the tiny grain particles out, just hang the bag to dry.

Recently I tried brewing in a bag without my sparge manifold (slotted copper tube) at the bottom of my mashing & laeutering pot. The wort contained way too much solid matter after removal of the bag (about three to four times as much as with laeutering settled at the bottom of my fermenter). I also didn't like wasting the sugar stuck in the bag, despite squeezing & collecting the drip-off. The specific gravity of the liquid dripping off the bag was significantly higher than what I usually get at the end of sparging (1.02 to 1.01).

For my last wheat beer, I then used the bag in addition to my usual setup. Sparging seemed to take significantly more Vorlauf than without a bag, i.e. the wort drawn from the sparge manifold was cloudy for a longer time. I don't know why that would be the case, but I assume the forming of the grain bed doing the filtering doesn't work as well with the bag mesh between the grain and the slotted tube.
The bag did simplify cleanup after sparging. I found the bag was a bit scorched/molten to the pot where it was draped over the edge of the pot - I do step meshes on a gas stove.

So, to summarize:

• cleanup is simpler
• I find sparging is still necessary
• and one has to be careful with applying heat when step mashing on an open gas burner, to avoid melting the bag.

Vorlauf is to set the grain bed on a conventional mash tun where you might get a significant amount of grain through the drain until the bed is set and begins filtering. You then would return the grain filled wort to the mash tun. With BIAB there shouldn't be big grain particles but the wort will be cloudy. No problem. Clear wort is not needed for clear beer. You're going to a lot of work for no real gain. Just collect the wort, sparge if you want, and start the boil.

 

[cbier60]

BIAB isn't suitable for LoDO.
But that's only a drawback for those who want to incorporate "full" LoDO process and techniques.

Please explain why BIAB isn't suitable for LoDO. Are you saying that the disturbance of removing the grain by lifting the bag is introducing too much O2? I BIAB w/o a lot of concern about removing the bag. Of course, BIAB has no impact on the boil or the fermentation. I also pressure ferment and do closed transfers, so both my pilsners and IPAs are still fantastic 3-6 months after kegging. Maybe my LODO standards are just too low. I'm sure someone like SanPancho can point out why my 40+ point beers are crap from burnt flour and too much trüb in the fermenter.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

BIAB isn't suitable for LoDO.
But that's only a drawback for those who want to incorporate "full" LoDO process and techniques.

I would think no-sparge, transfer-free BIAB brewing would be advantageous for LoDO? Issues arising from dough-in/removing bag?

 

[Velnerj]

Here's my experience, and I realize that it's unique and anectodel and many others have had opposite experiences.

Currently I mash in a bag with a cooler so technically a three vessel system still.

I used to mash in a cooler with just a bazooka like screen tube to filter out the grain. But I got myself a mill and started having stuck sparges. I know I could have gone with a coarser crush but added a bag instead.

I saw only a slight uptick in efficiency at first. But my last brew day (American wheat- destined to be a shandy) I vorlaufed quite a bit to get a clearer wort. This not only clarified the wort but recirculated the mash which I believed drove up my efficiency (from around 70% to around 80%).

Im sticking with this approach for these reasons.
I don't particularly like picking up a hot sticky bag and holding it there and squeezing etc. And I don't have a good way to set up a pulley system either. I know about grates too but it's just another piece to clean.

My kettle isn't big enough for full volume mash plus grain. There's no spigot on my kettle so there's no way to circulate the mash or vorlauf without some sort of messy pump system.

If I'm not doing full volume mash I'm not sure how sparging would be easier than mash in bag in a cooler.

Lastly and probably least, I don't have "old blankets" just lying around to insulate my pot. Which means I would need some other form of insulation. Why invest in some insulation when a cooler is exactly that?

 

[IslandLizard]

Please explain why BIAB isn't suitable for LoDO. Are you saying that the disturbance of removing the grain by lifting the bag is introducing too much O2? I BIAB w/o a lot of concern about removing the bag. Of course, BIAB has no impact on the boil or the fermentation. I also pressure ferment and do closed transfers, so both my pilsners and IPAs are still fantastic 3-6 months after kegging. Maybe my LODO standards are just too low. I'm sure someone like SanPancho can point out why my 40+ point beers are crap from burnt flour and too much trüb in the fermenter.

I would think no-sparge, transfer-free BIAB brewing would be advantageous for LoDO? Issues arising from dough-in/removing bag?

There are more than a few references in the LoDO subforum why a typical single vessel BIAB process doesn't lend itself to LoDO processes. Not being able to underlet the grain is one of the major reasons.
Here's one thread specific on that topic:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lodo-and-biab.670369/

 

[cbier60]

Here's one thread specific on that topic:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lodo-and-biab.670369/

Thanks for the reference. I may adopt some of those LoDO practices, but I'm definitely not as all in as the hardcore crowd.

 

[cheesebach]

I found the quality with BIAB to be very good. Easily as good as my igloo cooler I used to use. However the igloo was much easier to clean than my particular bag was...

Whenever I hear the ease of cleaning argument in these BIAB debates/discussions, I'm always left wondering how do people who claim cleaning their cooler mash tun is just a quick spray with the hose get the spent grain out of their cooler? For myself, BIAB is easier to clean since the grain is fully drained of all wort (spent grain from a cooler mash tun is a lot more wet by comparison), and I can just flip the bag inside out into the compost/trash and it's done. Using a cooler without a bag like I used to do, I would scoop as much of the spent grain out as possible first (which still left enough grain to make a mess after spraying out the cooler) and then take the cooler somewhere to finish rinsing it out. IME, BIAB is faster, cleaner, and easier regarding the cleaning process. Have I just been doing something wrong with the cooler (no bag) method that is making the process more difficult than it should be?

 

[Gruel]

[...]
Vorlauf is to set the grain bed on a conventional mash tun where you might get a significant amount of grain through the drain until the bed is set and begins filtering. You then would return the grain filled wort to the mash tun. With BIAB there shouldn't be big grain particles but the wort will be cloudy. No problem. Clear wort is not needed for clear beer. You're going to a lot of work for no real gain. Just collect the wort, sparge if you want, and start the boil.

It is correct that the bag prevents large grain particles from escaping, but with the wheat beer there was a lot of finer particles that made it through.

Adding back my traditional sparging with the slotted manifold cut down the amount of sediment that made it into the fermenter from four inches to the usual one inch, which makes cleaning the fermenter a lot (one could argue by a factor 4) easier. I prefer the easier cleanup with the combination of bag and sparging. The better yield is an added bonus.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Thanks for the reference. I may adopt some of those LoDO practices, but I'm definitely not as all in as the hardcore crowd.

I have helped develop the low oxygen setups for Spiedels, so it can certainly be done. A bunch of info here on the blog as well.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/

 

[Yooper]

There are no disadvantages.

I can't lift and squeeze a bag with 27 pounds of grain plus the water that it absorbed (another 27 pounds). I brew indoors, so no room for a hoist or dripping. For small batches, I can manage it. So one of the disadvantages is for large batches in a normal homebrew setting.

 

[Big Monk]

I would think no-sparge, transfer-free BIAB brewing would be advantageous for LoDO? Issues arising from dough-in/removing bag?

Yup. Even if you underlet, bag removal can be iffy unless you go very slow, which in and of itself can introduce atmospheric oxygen. Definitely not impossible though. I don’t want to fear monger here.

Without underletting though, we’ve shown there’s really no hope at all of maintaining a low oxygen mash. Dissolved oxygen levels spoke pretty considerably on dough in when lowering in a bag, basket, etc.

 

[Gruel]

Yooper, you could try a combination of old-fashioned ladling with lifting the remainder in the bag. This should still make final cleanup easier.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Yup. Even if you underlet, bag removal can be iffy unless you go very slow, which in and of itself can introduce atmospheric oxygen. Definitely not impossible though. I don’t want to fear monger here.

Without underletting though, we’ve shown there’s really no hope at all of maintaining a low oxygen mash. Dissolved oxygen levels spoke pretty considerably on dough in when lowering in a bag, basket, etc.

I wonder if there's any benefit (or any noticeable difference at all) to an intermediate level between "normal" practices and LoDO. E.g. yeast deoxygenation of strike water, reduced splashing during the mash/whirlpool, but no underletting and no sodium metabisulfite.

 

[Big Monk]

I wonder if there's any benefit (or any noticeable difference at all) to an intermediate level between "normal" practices and LoDO. E.g. yeast deoxygenation of strike water, reduced splashing during the mash/whirlpool, but no underletting and no sodium metabisulfite.

At that point it would probably just be better to focus on the cold side of things. Although underletting could be as simple as a line running into the top of the kettle to the bottle under the grain and Sodium or Potassium Metabisulfite is very cheap and easy to use in powder form.

 

[TheMadKing]

Step mashing, not being able to sparge, brewing big beers (because of the two problems mentioned before), less control over the mashing process (thickness, sparge, temperature, etc), cloudy wort (I'm a believer that it affects finished beer).

I switched to 3-vessel from BIAB, it added only 1 hour to my brew day, and a ton more flexibility in the methods I can use brewing. I have no regrets at all.

 

[lowtones84]

Step mashing, not being able to sparge, brewing big beers (because of the two problems mentioned before), less control over the mashing process (thickness, sparge, temperature, etc), cloudy wort (I'm a believer that it affects finished beer).

I switched to 3-vessel from BIAB, it added only 1 hour to my brew day, and a ton more flexibility in the methods I can use brewing. I have no regrets at all.

Only if you're doing single vessel biab. I do 2-3 steps plus a sparge on every beer that I brew. Brewing big beers also not a problem for me, but only because I do 3 gallon batches. Also perfect control over mash thickness/temp and I don't consider my wort much more cloudy than when I brew on my friend's 3 vessel.

You just need two pots And don't mill as fine as a lot of BIAB guys do. I don't think it's a big problem personally, but I crush about the same as people doing 3 vessel and have a nice bag. Don't really get much in the wort. Just can't vorlauf really.

 

[TheMadKing]

Only if you're doing single vessel biab. I do 2-3 steps plus a sparge on every beer that I brew. Brewing big beers also not a problem for me, but only because I do 3 gallon batches. Also perfect control over mash thickness/temp and I don't consider my wort much more cloudy than when I brew on my friend's 3 vessel.

You just need two pots And don't mill as fine as a lot of BIAB guys do. I don't think it's a big problem personally, but I crush about the same as people doing 3 vessel and have a nice bag. Don't really get much in the wort. Just can't vorlauf really.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious what advantage are you gaining by using the bag other than slightly faster cleanout of the grain and insurance against a stuck mash?

 

[lowtones84]

Not having to make a cooler mash tun and have it inside. I'm currently on an indoor brew setup, and doing 3 gallon biab batches is very convenient. Can dial in and customize all kinds of things without much hassle.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Has anyone else noticed that BIAB really isn't a discrete thing anymore? The diversity of systems using bags (calling themselves BIAB) is enormous - a far cry from the original single pot with a bag. Brewer A uses a traditional 'no sparge' method and says BIAB has the advantage of speed, ease and not much cleanup. Fantastic. But efficiency takes a hit. Brewer B....'efficiency is better with BIAB - take the bag out and sparge over the top and give it a good squeeze'. OK, but you've just added a step (and, IMO a messy one). That's good as well, but it's still hard to do step mashes without the need to stir. Brewer C 'but it's easy, stick the bag in a mash tun and recirculate through a RIMS tube'. A fantastic method, and works well (I often use the method) but moves even further from the simplicity of traditional BIAB and takes away the advantage of being able to use a very fine crush. I see some BIAB setups that are so blingy they make my homemade 3v system look like a clunker (to be fair, they still don't compare with off-the-shelf 3v systems for blingyness). Again, not really in the spirit of the original BIAB.

What's my point (tldr)? A bag is nothing more than a manifold/false bottom/bazooka screen. Your system has more to do with the number of vessels, heating method, sparge system etc. than it does the grain filter. BIAB isn't a true group. I know I'll get some hate for saying this, which is OK.

FWIW, I sometimes BIAB, sometimes use my cooler mash tun with bazooka, and sometimes use my keggle mash tun with false bottom. All three may or may not use a RIMS tube. I decide based on what I'm brewing and how much of it. Brew with whatever you've chosen and be happy with it. My personal 'dislike' with using a grain bag (and each system has 'dislike(s)') is the messiness of handling the bag.

 

[LittleRiver]

Has anyone else noticed that BIAB really isn't a discrete thing anymore?...

Sure there's diversity in BIAB, just like there's diversity in any type of endeavor, product, life form, etc. But your point that BIAB isn't a true group (a distinct style or method I assume you mean) is incorrect. Single vessel BIAB was, and still is, a distinct divergence from its predecessors. Just because it has developed diversity does not negate it being a distinct style.

...But efficiency takes a hit....

Only if you do it wrong. With a fine crush BIAB can exceed the efficiency of other methods. I consistently get 82-83% BH efficiency using one pot and a bag with no recirculation, no sparging, and no squeezing.

...stick the bag in a mash tun and recirculate through a RIMS tube'. A fantastic method, and works well (I often use the method) but moves even further from the simplicity of traditional BIAB and takes away the advantage of being able to use a very fine crush. I see some BIAB setups that are so blingy they make my homemade 3v system look like a clunker (to be fair, they still don't compare with off-the-shelf 3v systems for blingyness). Again, not really in the spirit of the original BIAB...

I agree with you on this.

There are some "BIAB" systems that have added so many unnecessary complications that they do indeed diverge from the original intent of BIAB. But that's ok.

For some folks the attraction of brewing has as much to do with their enjoyment of fiddling with hardware as it does with making beer. There's nothing wrong with that -- as long as they're having fun they're doing it right.

...My personal 'dislike' with using a grain bag (and each system has 'dislike(s)') is the messiness of handling the bag.

Handling a bag is not messy, unless you want it to be.

Squeezing a bag is indeed a hot sticky mess -- but there's no need to squeeze a bag. Just let it drain over the kettle during the entire boil. By the end of the boil it will be lightweight and cool.

To dispose of the grains, grab the bag by the top (which is not sticky), and drop it in a bucket. Drape the top of the bag around the outside of the bucket, and tighten the drawstring. Go the the woods or to a garbage bin and turn the bucket over, the bag will invert and empty itself. At that point you can rinse it off and put it away for the next use. To me, that is easier than scooping out grains from a vessel, then cleaning the vessel.

 

[cmac62]

I recently bought a "blingy" 3 vessel system (Brew Built Tippy Dump 15 gal) and wish I had looked into BIAB more before I purchased. The TD is a great system, but it weighs a ton and moving all the tubing around for every step is a bit of a PITA. I really want simple, and easy to clean would be a great benefit. I think I'm going to get a Wilser bag and see if I like the BIAB process. That will be a lot cheaper that the TD system I'll assure you. I brew outside, so I was thinking of using an A frame ladder to attach the ratcheting hoist to make pulling the bag a little easier, then just let it drain during the boil. This is a good thread. Thanks all

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Single vessel BIAB was, and still is, a distinct divergence from its predecessors.

Absolutely. Full volume, single vessel BIAB.

Just because it has developed diversity does not negate it being a distinct style.

I disagree (but it's really all just opinion) - I think a bag in a cooler mash tun with a RIMS tube has more in common with a typical 2V RIMS than traditional BIAB.

Only if you do it wrong. With a fine crush BIAB can exceed the efficiency of other methods. I consistently get 82-83% BH efficiency using one pot and a bag with no recirculation, no sparging, and no squeezing.

A well performed fly-sparge gets better than 82-82% efficiency. I can get about 92% lauter efficiency (BH efficiency is a bit irrelevant here because it depends on how much kettle trub you choose to leave behind, which is not a function of the system you mash with) with a slow fly sparge in my keggle system on a 1.050ish beer. Having said that, I normally choose to do a quick and easy fly sparge and accept about 85% lauter efficiency.

There are some "BIAB" systems that have added so many unnecessary complications that they do indeed diverge from the original intent of BIAB. But that's ok.

Definitely. Brewers should setup the system they want based on the pros and cons. But to say (as some have in this thread) that there are no cons to BIAB is not entirely truthful. Whatever system you choose to setup there will be cons. Eg. choose either squeeze the bag (sticky hands with good efficiency) or don't squeeze (cleaner hands but lower efficiency).

For some folks the attraction of brewing has as much to do with their enjoyment of fiddling with hardware as it does with making beer. There's nothing wrong with that -- as long as they're having fun they're doing it right.

Yep. I'm one of those. That's why I have a few different systems (all homemade) that I like to tinker with!

To dispose of the grains, grab the bag by the top (which is not sticky), and drop it in a bucket. Drape the top of the bag around the outside of the bucket, and tighten the drawstring. Go the the woods or to a garbage bin and turn the bucket over, the bag will invert and empty itself. At that point you can rinse it off and put it away for the next use. To me, that is easier than scooping out grains from a vessel, then cleaning the vessel.

Why on earth would you need to scoop grains out of a vessel rather than just dumping them out as you do with the bucket? Unless of course it's for a batch with grains that are too heavy to carry in the vessel. Of my three systems, I find the cooler mash tun with bazooka the easiest to dump grains and clean - carry it outside by the carry handle, tip grains out and give it a quick rinse with the hose. The bag and keggle are only marginally more work (not enough IMO to make a difference WRT choosing one over another).

My point with this is that using BIAB (or any other grain filter system) you can modify the system in any way to remove a disadvantage, but the modification with have it's own drawbacks. There's no one perfect system. Each brewer needs to choose what's important to him/her and design a system accordingly. The ones that I get confused with are brewers who go and sped a fortune on fully kitted out systems when it's not the best setup for them.

 

[Ollie8000]

My BIAB system for five gallon batches uses six vessels, depending on your definition. Two pots (3- and 4-gallon), three big mixing bowls for sparging and draining, and an electric kettle.

I like to think that this gives me all the benefits of BIAB while also being twice as good as a three-vessel system in the eyes of those for whom the number of vessels is the measurement that matters.

 

[fun4stuff]

I can't lift and squeeze a bag with 27 pounds of grain plus the water that it absorbed (another 27 pounds). I brew indoors, so no room for a hoist or dripping. For small batches, I can manage it. So one of the disadvantages is for large batches in a normal homebrew setting.

I do the same. I have a pulley set-up. My 6 year old can lift the bag using the pulley with no problem.... ok, well she does struggle a little and uses her body weight, but gets it done.

I squeeze the bag with a 3 bucket system. Nest 3 buckets together. Middle bucket has holes drilled In the bottom and sides. Grain bag goes in middle bucket. Use top bucket to press the wort out of the bag. I use my body weight by either sitting or standing in the top bucket. This almost avoids the sticky fingers mentioned above.

 

[lowtones84]

Sticky fingers as a disadvantage Some of you guys are too much!

The first BIAB I was ever introduced to was two vessel. Mash in one kettle, batch sparge in another, combine, boil. Works fantastic for me and I don't consider it unnecessary fiddly. If people don't want to consider it BIAB, fine I guess. But is it closer to single vessel, no sparge BIAB or a traditional 3 vessel system?

Of course there are disadvantages. There are advantages and disadvantages to literally every brewing setup.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Whenever I hear the ease of cleaning argument in these BIAB debates/discussions, I'm always left wondering how do people who claim cleaning their cooler mash tun is just a quick spray with the hose get the spent grain out of their cooler? For myself, BIAB is easier to clean since the grain is fully drained of all wort (spent grain from a cooler mash tun is a lot more wet by comparison), and I can just flip the bag inside out into the compost/trash and it's done. Using a cooler without a bag like I used to do, I would scoop as much of the spent grain out as possible first (which still left enough grain to make a mess after spraying out the cooler) and then take the cooler somewhere to finish rinsing it out. IME, BIAB is faster, cleaner, and easier regarding the cleaning process. Have I just been doing something wrong with the cooler (no bag) method that is making the process more difficult than it should be?

I didn't see anyone address this, so here's my 2 cents:

For my cooler mash tun I put a trash bag over the top and then flip it upside down, tap on it a little, and the pull off the cooler, which removes almost all the grain. Then I rinse the cooler with a hose.
No scooping required. Grain doesn't get stuck anywhere. I don't need to touch anything hot and sticky.

I also have a small BIAB system, so I know what it's like to use both types of lautering methods. In my opinion, emptying and cleaning a cooler is very similar to emptying and cleaning a bag (people always skip the part about needing to clean the bag).

Hope this helps.

 

[hottpeper13]

I do a few Gypsy brews a year , and only having to bring a kettle, burner and bag to a buddy's house is priceless!