Best neutral dry yeast that does not mute hops

[dmtaylor]

A few questions for anyone who can answer:
1) Has anyone noticed if higher flocculating yeast mutes the flavor of hotside hops? I've heard this in a few places and I'm not sure if it's true. It seems to me that it wouldn't really matter how quickly or hard a yeast flocculates since it all flocs out in the fridge anyway.

2) For 34/70, would it be best to use double the amount of packs (compared to ale yeast) if fermenting at 64 F?

3) What yeast pitch calculator would you recommend?

1) I'm personally not sure how flocculation affects hop flavor.

2) Temperature is the only thing that matters. One pack of W-34/70 is more than enough for up to 6 gallons fermented at 64 F unless your OG is super high (like above 1.080).

3) I don't use a calculator; they are all super conservative and just plain wrong, especially when it comes to dry yeast. Any pack of dry yeast will last for up to 10 years in refrigeration with minimal loss of viability. It is one of the greatest advantages of dry yeast.

I've looked up tartness with Notty and there are others that agree that it's tart. I just now looked it up again and saw that Denny (who I imagine we all know) stopped using it due to its tartness.

Denny is wrong sometimes.

Every one of us is wrong sometimes. Including me.

I have not experienced the "tartness" that others have with Notty. I've experienced tartness with many yeasts. But not that one. Maybe "tartness" is not the right word?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Denny is wrong sometimes.

Yeah...definitely he is not my favorite of the well known homebrew authors.

I have not experienced the "tartness" that others have with Notty. I've experienced tartness with many yeasts. But not that one. Maybe "tartness" is not the right word?

Years back I did experience a tartness with a few batches of S-04. Dave has noted that Fermentis may have cleaned up S-04. My recent batch of English Bitter with S-04 was wonderful. So S-04 is back on my list of yeasts to use more.

I have not used Nottingham in a while, but I threw a pack at a Simcoe Pale Ale last year. That was a wonderful beer that I could not stop drinking. It makes me want to use Nottingham more.

 

[CyberFox]

I might give Notty another try at some point. I'd be really surprised if I got an infection when I used Notty because I'm pretty damn careful when it comes to sanitation, but weirder things have happened.

As far as flocculation affecting hop flavor/aroma, the main thing I can think of that might affect it is dry hopping with yeast still in suspension and the yeast taking the hop oils with them as they floc out. No idea if that's actually true though, like so many things with brewing.

 

[Malticulous]

I split a fifteen gallon batch of a Citra pale ale with US-05, Apex San Diego and w34/70. I tapped the Apex first and it is gone. It seemed to me to have a more full hop flavor than US-05 that is on tap now. I haven tapped w34/70 yet.

 

[CyberFox]

I split a fifteen gallon batch of a Citra pale ale with US-05, Apex San Diego and w34/70. I tapped the Apex first and it is gone. It seemed to me to have a more full hop flavor than US-05 that is on tap now. I haven tapped w34/70 yet.

Very cool experiment. I've never heard of Apex yeast, but I'm definitely interested. We're starting to get almost spoiled with the amount of choices in dry yeast, but I can't complain.

If you could update us on how the 34/70 turns out, that would be awesome!

 

[bwible]

Lallemand Nottingham at 60 F or so is my go-to when I don’t want the yeast to get in the way.

Alternatively, 34/70 is well behaved and neutral over a wide temperature range.

Understand that 34/70 is a lager yeast. Almost every company makes one - look for the description that says something like “This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world.” Wyeast 2124, sorry I don’t know White Labs numbers off the top of my head.

If you make a pale ale with this yeast you are making IPL or I guess APL or cold IPA, whatever they are calling it now.

Most lager strains want to be fermented at around 50 degrees. 34/70 is unique in that several recent studies have found you can make acceptable lagers with it by fermenting at ale temps and then lagering the resulting beer. If you only make ale with it at only ale temps and you do not lager the resulting beer I am not sure what your results will be.

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

 

[AlexKay]

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

Genetics, schmenetics. 34/70 is good for neutral ales: I've made cream ale with it, and American stout, and Grodziskie. And for IPAs (call them IPLs, if you like), once you're adding that level of hops, you'll never be able to tell the difference.

 

[dmtaylor]

Most lager strains want to be fermented at around 50 degrees. 34/70 is unique in that several recent studies have found you can make acceptable lagers with it by fermenting at ale temps and then lagering the resulting beer. If you only make ale with it at only ale temps and you do not lager the resulting beer I am not sure what your results will be.

Make ales with ale yeast. Use lager yeast for lagers. They are genetically different.

W-34/70 is anything but unique. I'm making great lagers with various pastorianus yeasts in mid to upper 60s F, including S-189, Diamond, S-23, WLP833, you name it, I'm trying it. Genetically a different species, yes. Full of esters and off-flavors fermented warm... well...... not so much. Experiment, and find out.

 

[CyberFox]

W-34/70 is anything but unique. I'm making great lagers with various pastorianus yeasts in mid to upper 60s F, including S-189, Diamond, S-23, WLP833, you name it, I'm trying it. Genetically a different species, yes. Full of esters and off-flavors fermented warm... well...... not so much. Experiment, and find out.

How would you describe the characterisitics of each of the yeast you mentioned when fermented warm? Some cleaner than others?

Is there an optimal temperature in the 60s you'd recommend?

 

[dmtaylor]

How would you describe the characterisitics of each of the yeast you mentioned when fermented warm? Some cleaner than others?

Is there an optimal temperature in the 60s you'd recommend?

I've been very happy with my results with S-189 and Diamond, several times each. Diacetyl and sulfur were thrown but very short lived. The other two, very low esters but not as much as you might think. And actually, S-23 is known to have slight esters anyway, that one is supposed to turn out that way. WLP833 is the one I would have to experiment with more to know for sure what it is capable of.

I'd aim for 65 F with any of these, for experimental purposes. Same as with most ale strains, I would not exceed 70 F except perhaps as a wackier experiment.

 

[Malticulous]

Very cool experiment. I've never heard of Apex yeast, but I'm definitely interested. We're starting to get almost spoiled with the amount of choices in dry yeast, but I can't complain.

If you could update us on how the 34/70 turns out, that would be awesome!

34/70 was fermented in the high fifties and dry hopped in the keg cold for weeks. The other two were dry hopped in primary in the mid sixties for five days.

Apex and the 34/70 were both more hoppy than the US-05. For some reason the US-05 version came out muted. I've used US-05 a lot so that supersized me. I recently used US-05, Nottingham and Apex San Diego in a hoppy red and they all came out about as hoppy (but I also used differnt dry hops in each fermenter.)

The lager version was great but I think I prefer to use ale yeast in pale ales.

 

[CyberFox]

34/70 was fermented in the high fifties and dry hopped in the keg cold for weeks. The other two were dry hopped in primary in the mid sixties for five days.

Apex and the 34/70 were both more hoppy than the US-05. For some reason the US-05 version came out muted. I've used US-05 a lot so that supersized me. I recently used US-05, Nottingham and Apex San Diego in a hoppy red and they all came out about as hoppy (but I also used differnt dry hops in each fermenter.)

The lager version was great but I think I prefer to use ale yeast in pale ales.

Thanks for the update. Any specific reason you prefer ale yeast over lager yeast in pale ales (flavor, etc.)?

 

[Malticulous]

Thanks for the update. Any specific reason you prefer ale yeast over lager yeast in pale ales (flavor, etc.)?

I think the Apex San Diego works best in this recipe. And then there is the turn around time.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

CyberFox said:
Thanks for the update. Any specific reason you prefer ale yeast over lager yeast in pale ales (flavor, etc.)?

Is it a pale ale if it's made with a lager yeast?

 

[CyberFox]

CyberFox said:
Thanks for the update. Any specific reason you prefer ale yeast over lager yeast in pale ales (flavor, etc.)?

Is it a pale ale if it's made with a lager yeast?

Style guidelines don't really matter to me. All I care about is the taste.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Style guidelines don't really matter to me. All I care about is the taste.

Me neither, although there is a fundamental difference between ale and lager which predates the style guidelines by many years. I'm just wondering, if you use a lager yeast in a pale ale is it still a pale ale, but it doesn't matter obviously.