best apples for cider/cyser?

[mopar318]

Hello all,

First off, we run a apple orchard with over 30 varieties. I have been a long time beer lover and want to start making cider bier. I would love to get something close to b-meadery zombie killer.

What apples should I press that will work best in a cider beer? We have the usual very sweet such as gala, jonagold. Semi sweet like Cortland, and tarts such as mutzu, Winesap, Arkansas black.

Anybody have a custom end they recommend?

This week should also bring our new lancman 170 liter press!

 

[WVMJ]

You really could make something much better than that on your own. Press a blend of your apples to make a cider you like, add some honey to raise the sg a little, add some nutrients, let it ferment, when it clears (if you want clear) you can prime it and bottle. We are doing our first real cysers this year from wild trees, lots of acid in them, going to make it without bubblesl and backsweeten with a little honey, a bit different than your aim but the apple cider taste and crispness is still really good. Do you guys have 1 tree of each variety or rows of each variety? There are lists out there of euro cider type apples that make more of a white wine with tannins, your Arkana black I think is on that list.

WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

You really could make something much better than that on your own. Press a blend of your apples to make a cider you like, add some honey to raise the sg a little, add some nutrients, let it ferment, when it clears (if you want clear) you can prime it and bottle. We are doing our first real cysers this year from wild trees, lots of acid in them, going to make it without bubblesl and backsweeten with a little honey, a bit different than your aim but the apple cider taste and crispness is still really good. Do you guys have 1 tree of each variety or rows of each variety? There are lists out there of euro cider type apples that make more of a white wine with tannins, your Arkana black I think is on that list.

WVMJ

We have about 900 trees. Some varieties we have just a few trees and others 30-50 trees.

I want to do a five gallon batch. Would you suggest adding the honey during fermentation or at bottling? Do you the wild yeast or zap it and add your own?

I have a test batch in the firdge that turned bubbly after 4 weeks. Since I press myself I am VERY clean. No drops are used and the press is sanitized.

 

[WVMJ]

Using wild apples, very wild, I zap them good with KM and put in the yeast I want. I put the honey in the primary to boost the alcohol level and make a cyser, I put the starting gravity higher than people just making cider from only the sugar in the apples, around 1.090 or so, and we still havent decided if and how much we want to backsweeten, might even just go dry and put a little honey bear on the table and if someone wants it sweeter then can put a sqeeze of honey in there! 900 trees, I would be going nuts, my house would look like a water bottle factory with every different kine of cider I could think to make, let alone making a batch from each variety by itself from the ones that taste like they could do it on their own (not something like red delicious). YOu guys probably already have a good healthy established yeast population from the wild, question is wether this is a good yeast or not. Seems like if you are only making one batch you would want to add KM just for insurance and a package of yeast, or make 2 batches, 1 with a wine yeast and one you let go wild and see what happens, not like you dont have lots of apples to squish. Good excuse to get an extra carboy. Good luck. WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

Thanks for the info. If I get time this week I will try out the new bladder press and do 100 gallons or so.

Our cooler is to full and we need to juice the extras.

I don't really know much about wild yeast, but will say our cider never has gone sour. It always gets bubbly with a nice dry tang when left for more than 3-4 weeks.

I think I will try a run in a 1 gallon using the wild test and another in a five gallon with the honey and white labs ale yeast.

 

[gregbathurst]

If you are making cider you want the apples as ripe as possible, so leave them as long as you can. Generally the apples with the highest brix make the best cider so get a refractometer and start testing. Claude Joliceour's new cider book has a good section on north american apples, you should get it if you want to get into cider. You shouldn't need to add sugar or honey if you have good ripe apples, you can usually get to 14 brix which is plenty, though more is better.

 

[WVMJ]

You cant make cyser without honey. I think cortland was on the cider apple list. Have you ever tested the gravity of your cider before you left it in the fridge to get bubbly with a hydrometer and them measured it afterward? Since you are saying its dry in the end you just might have a good wild yeast in there. As a kid we would pull to top off a gallon and stick it in the cool basement, though we never developed a big taste for our homemade vinegar WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

Well I have been really busy since I posted and have not had a chance to do anything yet.

I plan on pitching yeast Wednesday. I think I will skip doing a Cyser, and just do a dry cider until i figure out what I am doing.

What do you think about this tutorial?

http://www.leeners.com/cider/how-to/hard-cider.shtml

Here was my blend of cider that I will be using.

Gold Rush
Enterprice
Winesap
Arkansas Black
JonaGold and Melrose...REALLY REALLY ripe ones.
Freedom
Mutzu

Most of these are very sweet. The Gold Rush is a top rated cider apple and has some intense flavor.

 

[mopar318]

Well today I poured my cider it to the primary fermenting bucket and added 5 Campden tablets. The Starting Specific Gravity was at 1.055. Considering I used quite a few tarts with some very nice sweets, this number seems pretty spot on. It looks like I am due for a 7% abv cider, which was what I was looking for.

 

[WVMJ]

Looks very cool, we are doing a goldrush with a little crabapple cyser, looking forwared to it. Looks like you have a lot of good cider apples in your mix, I think this is going to turn out well for you, it always tastes better when you squish your own. WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

This morning when I came to check on my brew the airlock was filled with the yeasty solutions and some had even spilled into the cap of the bucket. My fermenting is going crazy! Is this pretty normal?

I also have a heater blowing warm air at it since its only about 68 degrees in the house.

 

[Yooper]

This morning when I came to check on my brew the airlock was filled with the yeasty solutions and some had even spilled into the cap of the bucket. My fermenting is going crazy! Is this pretty normal?

I also have a heater blowing warm air at it since its only about 68 degrees in the house.

It's probably too warm, and that's why the yeast is going crazy. If it's more than 70 degrees, it's too warm.

 

[mopar318]

It's probably too warm, and that's why the yeast is going crazy. If it's more than 70 degrees, it's too warm.

Ok, I took the heater off of it. The White Lab Vial states to pitch at 70-75 degrees, so I did.

It does not say what the temperature should be though after.

I am glad to see it is doing so well though, is there any negative effects to this besides making a mess?

 

[Yooper]

Ok, I took the heater off of it. The White Lab Vial states to pitch at 70-75 degrees, so I did.

It does not say what the temperature should be though after.

I am glad to see it is doing so well though, is there any negative effects to this besides making a mess?

Some yeast strains have flavor impacts when fermented warm, and some strains taste best in the 50s and some in the 60s, so it depends on which strain you're using. The White Labs website has the best info on the strain you're using. For example, say you're using this strain, White Labs Cider WLP775. They do recommend fermentation temperatures of 68-75. Keep in mind that is fermentation temperature, and not room temperature so a "stick on" thermometer is very helpful. I find best flavor at the very low end of recommended fermentation temperatures, and generally ferment my ciders in the low 60s for the best less "boozy" flavor.

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp775-english-cider-yeast

 

[mopar318]

Some yeast strains have flavor impacts when fermented warm, and some strains taste best in the 50s and some in the 60s, so it depends on which strain you're using. The White Labs website has the best info on the strain you're using. For example, say you're using this strain, White Labs Cider WLP775. They do recommend fermentation temperatures of 68-75. Keep in mind that is fermentation temperature, and not room temperature so a "stick on" thermometer is very helpful. I find best flavor at the very low end of recommended fermentation temperatures, and generally ferment my ciders in the low 60s for the best less "boozy" flavor.

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp775-english-cider-yeast

Thanks for the info! Yes that is the yeast I am using, and very impressed with it so far. I don't think I will ever go back to a dry yeast.

I moved it so a cooler location, and it is closer to the low end now.

How do the thermometers work with a bucket pale? I used a cooking thermometer before pitching the yeast, but now would have to take off the lid to check it.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the info! Yes that is the yeast I am using, and very impressed with it so far. I don't think I will ever go back to a dry yeast.

I moved it so a cooler location, and it is closer to the low end now.

How do the thermometers work with a bucket pale? I used a cooking thermometer before pitching the yeast, but now would have to take off the lid to check it.

They have "stick on" thermometers, like aquarium strips, so you can see the temperature at a glance.

 

[MindenMan]

I hope your cider doesn't have any "off flavors" from being fermented so warm. My understanding is the first three days are the most important days of temperature control. I made some cider quite a while back, and I didn't think to control the temperatures, and the results were less than stellar. I got the dreaded "nail polish remover" smell and drinking the cider wasn't something I wanted to drink. I left the cider in the fermenter for 3 or 4 weeks @70* F or so, and the nasty smell went away, and I bottled it. It has now been 6 or so months since it was bottled, and it has really turned the corner. I am in no hurry to drink this batch of cider, and I would really like to wait a year or so and see what we have then. I have a sneaking suspicion I need to get a batch going now, so come New year's Eve 2014, we will really have something to celebrate with.

 

[mopar318]

They have "stick on" thermometers, like aquarium strips, so you can see the temperature at a glance.

So that's what that thing is! I saw them at the brew store...so I need to pick one up.

 

[WVMJ]

Not sure but I think nail polish remover is a microbe contamination and has nothing to do with the temp? We had that one time with some cherry, a little KM cleared it right up.

https://winemakermag.com/676-the-perils-of-volatile-acidity

This link talks about the polish smell, you might still have time to fix it but not doing anything might not be the best thing to do.

WVMJ

I hope your cider doesn't have any "off flavors" from being fermented so warm. My understanding is the first three days are the most important days of temperature control. I made some cider quite a while back, and I didn't think to control the temperatures, and the results were less than stellar. I got the dreaded "nail polish remover" smell and drinking the cider wasn't something I wanted to drink. I left the cider in the fermenter for 3 or 4 weeks @70* F or so, and the nasty smell went away, and I bottled it. It has now been 6 or so months since it was bottled, and it has really turned the corner. I am in no hurry to drink this batch of cider, and I would really like to wait a year or so and see what we have then. I have a sneaking suspicion I need to get a batch going now, so come New year's Eve 2014, we will really have something to celebrate with.

 

[mopar318]

It was only that warm for about 12 hours and was not over the 75 degrees. It is at about 67 degrees now and going strong.

 

[WVMJ]

Warm has nothing to do with nail polish remover smell, thats a bad bug that needs some attention, does it still smell like that? WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

Well today I racked my cider to the glass carboy. I am amazed in how well it has turned out. It taste great! We are supposed to get some heavy snow tonight, so it may not make it past the aging process if we are stuck inside.

The only thing I will change next time is ferment 6 gallons instead of 5. 5 did not quite fill the carboy . There was a lot of sediment that I really did not want in my secondary. This is what happens when using raw unfiltered cider.

 

[WVMJ]

You already had a nail polish problem, now you have a LOT of headspace that can just keep adding more problems, do you have any smaller carboys or some argon gas or something to take up all that empty space, its really an invitation to more problems. Glad it turned out good, of course drinking it all could easily solve your problem of headspace. WVMJ

 

[mopar318]

You already had a nail polish problem, now you have a LOT of headspace that can just keep adding more problems, do you have any smaller carboys or some argon gas or something to take up all that empty space, its really an invitation to more problems. Glad it turned out good, of course drinking it all could easily solve your problem of headspace. WVMJ

I never had any nail polish problems. That was another guy.

It is still bubbling so the oxygen should be displaced.

Should I add more cider to the carboy?

 

[mopar318]

I decided to add more cider to make up for the headspace. I thawed a gallon and heat pasturized it, since I do not want to add any more tablets. Held it at 170 degrees for around 1 hour.

Then I poured it into the carboy through a filter to reduce the amount of sediment.

 

[mopar318]

I bottled my cider today...and man is it delicious! I cold crashed it after back sweetening with more fresh cider. It has the perfect amount of sweetness and is now at 6% ABV. I did not add any chemicals to stop the yeast, so I will need to keep it very cold or pasteurize it.

Me and the wife enjoying the first glass. Look at that amazing clarity!

It is obvious my apple blend worked out perfect, and the cider went clear without any added chemicals. The only "unnatural" thing I added was 5 camden tablets 24 hours before pitching the whitelabs cider yeast.

 

[mopar318]

Since I cold crashed this and have very little or no suspended yeast. Would it be OK to leave it for a while? Or is there still enough of the yeast to eat up the remaining sugars?

I did fill a plastic bottle to keep an eye out on the pressure.