Berliner-ish

[badlee]

I am now in love with the idea of a Berliner weisse.
So, as it is REAL hard to get barley malt here in Thailand,I will do an all wheat sour in the Berliner style.
The question is,which of these two methods would come out better?
1) 20 percent sour mash added to the main mash before sparge.
2) 20 percent sour mash added to primary after 3-4 days of fermenting with ale yeast.

You lads humble me with all of your knowledge and experience,so as always,all and any feedback will be thankfully recieved.
Cheers,Lee.

Ps,it is going to be my first sour

 

[badlee]

No one going to help out poor old me on this one?

 

[cervezarara]

I recommend number 1. I think you want to boil the sour mash to kill any enterobacteria that may have been active. Sour mash a day or two before brewing, and allow the sour mash to stay about 115*F. You can cover with plastic to minimize airborn cntaminants entering the sour mash. This is a hit or miss technique, so you can inrease/decrease sour mash percentage for the next brew based upon the level of sourness you desire.

 

[badlee]

Thanks very much for that.
Woul I be correct in thinking that the second option would just be crazy sour and riddled with nasties?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

You probably won't get a lot of extra sourness from option two unless you let it sit for months. You are just as likely to develop an undesirable flavor as you are a desirable flavor. That's the risk of wild fermentation.

Adding the sour mash pre-boil stops the souring process but also produces a clean beer so you won't risk infecting post-boil equipment.

 

[badlee]

The undesirables is what was at the back of my mind,just wasn;t sure if I was on the right track.
So,low mash temp with 20 percent of grain bill, say, 2 days before brew day,then add to main mash just before sparge?
Cheers lads.

 

[badlee]

Brewed on sunday and it made the whole house smell like puke and rotten fish.
The soured part of the wort tasted very nice.Hope the taste and not the smell comes through!

 

[badlee]

the house is smelling less. the beer is still fermenting away,clearing,but I upened the FV and it still smells a bit crappy! Do I need to feed this to the trees?

 

[cervezarara]

It's possible some clostridium bacteria infected your sour mash. This throws butyric acid which can smell like vomit. A few days is not enough time to decide if this will clean up or not. If infection was slight, and you boiled after sour mash, it's possible this will go away with 1-3 months of conditioning. If you have fermenter space, you may wish to let this sit and condition, checking the taste every month.

Clostridium is inactive above 110F, so if you can keep the sour mash above that temp, you should inhibit future infections. You may with to place plastic wrap on top of the sour mash, squeezing out the air bubbles to get rid of air. Or if you have access to pure cultures of Lactobacillus delbruckii, introduce these after the boil, and skip the sour mash.

Let us know if this one clears up.

 

[othellomcbane]

It's possible some clostridium bacteria infected your sour mash. This throws butyric acid which can smell like vomit. A few days is not enough time to decide if this will clean up or not. If infection was slight, and you boiled after sour mash, it's possible this will go away with 1-3 months of conditioning. If you have fermenter space, you may wish to let this sit and condition, checking the taste every month.

Clostridium is inactive above 110F, so if you can keep the sour mash above that temp, you should inhibit future infections. You may with to place plastic wrap on top of the sour mash, squeezing out the air bubbles to get rid of air. Or if you have access to pure cultures of Lactobacillus delbruckii, introduce these after the boil, and skip the sour mash.

Let us know if this one clears up.

Not sure that this would work for everyone, but I discovered my tap water from the kitchen sink, at its hottest, is 115 degrees. Perfect for a sour mash. I only did a small sour mash, but I topped off a small carboy to limit oxygen exposure, covered it with plastic, set the carboy in my insulated cooler mash tun, and then filled up the rest of the cooler with hot tap water. Every 10 hours or so I drained the cooler and refilled it with hot water, so the temp never dropped below 110 degrees.

I kept the mash going for 2 days and at the end had a very nice clean sourness. No disgusting smells whatsoever. So if you can employ this strategy, it seems to work.

 

[badlee]

I set my self a deadline of wednesday night.
I opened the FV with trepedation,smelld and.............FRUITY!
It no longer smelled of vomit,so I I threw caution to the wind,racked off the yeast and rubbery looking gunk and added my frozen goosberries.
SO, in about 10 days I should bottles and condition for about 2 or 3 months right?

 

[badlee]

As of today,it smells,wait for it.........of wet gooseberries!
No puke or any other BAD smells.
I was thinking of holding in secondary till sunday,or maybe one more week afetr that and then bottle condition for a month or so?

 

[badlee]

I cracked the first bottle of this the other day.
The "funny smell" was still there,but to a much lesser extent.
Crystal clear, great carbonation,just a hint of gooseberry and a good dose of mild tartness.

 

[kerosin]

Hy there badlee,
you just made my day, I did a sour mash for a Berliner Weisse a few days ago and experienced exactly the same what you described. I rested the mash for some time at 66°C (151°F) and let it cool down to 35°C (95°F). I then added some acidified malt and let it stand there at 35°C. And then came the vomit smell after a day. The mild heat of 35°C helped to distribute the smell throughout my cellar even better.... But it vanished after the second day and I could pick up some lemon notes. This was a pretty weird experience. So I added the hops and let the mash rest at mash-out temperature for 15 minutes and just sparged into the fermenter. Then added some European Ale yeast and bottled it a few days ago with some Brettanomyces.

My concern was that the "funny smell" would stay in the beer. But you seem to have experienced a decline in the "funny smell" character. Now I hope that the "funny smell" will vanish with time. Thanks for your tasting notes.

Cheers
Samuel

 

[badlee]

Glad to know I'm no alone Samuel.
The decline in "funny smell" is huge! Initial level was "ohmygodimgonnapukeallovermyshoesrightnow".
But now it's down to a level where I think that if I did not know that it hed been there in the first place,I may jus not have noticed it.
Good luck with yours,Lee.

 

[jtakacs]

good news... i love sour mashed beers and the next time i do a BW (done two) i'll use a very small sour mash and ferment clean with a fast acting high attenuating sacc... frankly i prefer growing my lacto on my own. )

kerosin - keep us posted on the beer, i'm curious as to how the sour mash and brett work out. which brett did you use?

 

[kerosin]

Hi there jtakacs,
I will post a link to my site as soon as I have written about the results of my BW. And I can't give you further details about the Brett I used because I isolated it from a BFM La Torpille.

 

[jtakacs]

please do... just had to snap some pics of my BW... never seen a beer so clear, light, and bright. just waiting for the 90 degree temps around here so i can drink them instead of water.

 

[badlee]

You hit the nail on the head there jtakacs, the cleares and lightes looking beer I have ever seen in my life.