Belgian Dark Recipe Feedback

[Tulbi]

Thanks for the tips.

I'm warming it up right now. I don't have an exact heating system (wood ovens can be very tricky) and I don't know how dangerous overshooting (higher than 84 would be really unprobable) would be to the yeast?

And what does 'rousing' exactly mean? I read that getting too much oxygen into the beer at this stage is rather a bad thing, so I just ask so I wont mess it up

Thank you very much and I am reading up the other posts on you key-words now.
[E.g. I read something about pitching it on an 'existing cake'. Does that mean getting the yeast-settlememt from another brew into the mix? I wouldn't have one eitherway but yeah ^^]

 

[IslandLizard]

After you tap some for a sample, let it sit for a while until it sediments out. Only use clear or slightly cloudy beer to test.

Do you use a hydrometer or refractometer to measure your gravity? Have you checked it against plain or distilled water, to calibrate? Temperature should be ideally around 60F or 66F depending on the instrument, but the temp error would be insignificant around 1.030.

As said before, you heavily underpitched yeast, and stalling at 1.020-1.030 is a common occurrence when you do that. As I said before, fluctuating temps can make yeast go dormant.

At this point you can warm the batch up to around 75F, and keep it at that temp for a few weeks. Perhaps even 80F. A slight careful swirling or stirring to rouse the yeast helps to get it back into suspension. When doing so, be careful not to introduce air into the beer, it will oxidize it. Again those temps need to be consistent for a few weeks to see any results. That is if the yeast can be coaxed to do so.

If the gravity is indeed around 1.030, a new pitching of yeast can help, but it has to be with a fairly large yeast starter that's at the top of it's potential, at high krausen. Look it up, learn all there is to know about restarting a stalled fermentation, the ups and downs and prevent possible problems.

Do NOT aerate your beer, it will oxidize, which is bad. Your current yeast is done growing anyway. There may have not been enough cells to ferment all the sugars, and the rising alcohol levels may have killed a bunch of them in the process.

 

[Tulbi]

But what about stiring the yeast settlement (I'm not sure if this is the proper term.) into the beer with a spoon?

Edit: I think we cross posted. I take it that this is what you two mean with rousing/stirring to rouse.
I will try that first and if that doesn't work I will let them send me some more yeast and some dme (I take it that dme is best for yeast starters?) for a big starter

Thank you both.

 

[IslandLizard]

But what a out stiring the yeast settlement (I'm not sure if this is the proper term.) into the beer with a spoon?

A long spoon, sure, but use utter sanitation! Do you have a good sanitizer now?

Opening those fermentors will introduce bacteria to your unfinished beer and they may get a foothold and you'll end up with sour beer. A swirling motion keeping the lid on is safer in that regard.

BTW, have you read How to Brew yet?

 

[Tulbi]

I just tested the hydrometer in water. It showed 1005.
It was not distilled water. But that would make me think it is probably way off.

But even if the beers were in fact closer to 1025 they would still need fermenting.

 

[Tulbi]

I swirled it and have it quite warm now (it's still quite a bit under 75F but I don't want to do it too fast so I don't overshoot it). Until now nothing happened really. I'll wait until tomorrow evenig and if nothing changes I will add some sugar to it.
Do you have any suggestions how much? And I'm thinking it is probably best to add it already dissolved in water, am I right there?

I did read the chapter about malted barley and found it quite informative. I don't really like to read long texts on the internet (especially because I don't have accces to big screens too often), so I'm looking at how to buy it? Amazon is a pain in the ass here and bookshops tell me they could order it but it would take about a month to arrive ^^

 

[IslandLizard]

I swirled it and have it quite warm now (it's still quite a bit under 75F but I don't want to do it too fast so I don't overshoot it). Until now nothing happened really. I'll wait until tomorrow evenig and if nothing changes I will add some sugar to it.
Do you have any suggestions how much? And I'm thinking it is probably best to add it already dissolved in water, am I right there?

I did read the chapter about malted barley and found it quite informative. I don't really like to read long texts on the internet (especially because I don't have accces to big screens too often), so I'm looking at how to buy it? Amazon is a pain in the ass here and bookshops tell me they could order it but it would take about a month to arrive ^^

At this point you will not see any signs of fermentation, as it will be very sloooooow. That's the main reason to pitch a large amount of healthy yeast at the beginning (with good oxygenation) so more cells can do the heavy lifting, and enough are left standing to finish it out. Keep it warm is the best at this point.

Adding sugar will not necessarily wake up your yeast, but will add more gravity, making it sweeter, the opposite of what you want to achieve.

Read back in this thread, many suggestions have been posted to finish this beer out if/when it stalls. The last one was from me to make a new large starter and pitch that at high krausen.

On How to Brew:
Learning is part of brewing, since not many of us were born knowing this natively. The book is more in depth and modern than the web version, but 99% of the site is still valid today, and I simply use it to quickly find things or look something up. I prefer reading the book too, and have several copies, one on each floor, just in case.

Not sure why you find Amazon a PITA, it's a great resource, although I don't subscribe to all their (or anyone else's) big business antics. For example, even trying to browse the site's larger vendors is moronic. I'm sure you can find that book if you beat the bushes, so to speak. eBay?

Aside from the book/site, our HBT here, BYO, Beersmith.com, Brulosophy.com and a whole bunch of other sites are amazingly good resources to learn and improve your brewing. It doesn't happen overnight, and everyone makes mistakes. The key is to understand the processes and why some are better than others, regardless of personal preference. Such as omitting secondaries, growing healthy yeast starters, keeping ferm temps constant, etc.

Stay with it!

 

[Tulbi]

Thank you very much for the extensive advice

So my best bet (to notice if the higher temperatures reactivated a sloooow fermentation) is probably just to take a SG reading in a couple of days or so?
If it hasn't dropped significantly (I'd say more than 0.002 would be) I would try to pitch a new starter.

[Amazon is cool if you're not in switz erland. Here most international trade moves quite slow. But it is probably my best option at the moment ]

 

[IslandLizard]

YVW!

It may take a week or longer, not days, before your gravity has moved a few points. I would give it at least a week before taking another sample. And subtract .005 from your hydrometer reading, to get the real gravity. You can swirl it up every day, just don't "shake" it.

You could make a small 1 gallon size batch at 1.070 OG with a dry yeast, like US-05 or S-04, even Nottingham if you can get it. Or build one from liquid yeast, in 2 or 3 steps, then pitch the last step. You would want it to go into high krausen, usually a day or 2 after pitching. The timing is essential. Then pitch 1/2 gallon each into your 2 stalled beers. Keep them warm around 75F. Or even a little more, 80 being the upper limit. Resurrecting a stalled higher gravity beer is tricky, since the odds are stacked against you. And you need to use good sanitation or it may end up getting infected.

I thought Europe had finally caught on with "international" trades. Some Amazon US or UK vendors or private seller may mail to Switzerland for a marginal extra shipping charge. Have you tried eBay?

 

[steveabt12]

Hi Tulbi
Homebrew supplies are not that widespread in Europe (except UK). Here in France I use four different suppliers, all good quality and price located in France, Belgium and Germany and they deliver to Switzerland. So if you want details please let me know.

 

[Tulbi]

I have two good online homegrew suppliers. I'd be interested in the french ones I looked at the german ones and they are a bit better stocked and a bit cheaper but the international delivery costs are also much higher.

I'll do that, if the heat treatment doesn't work out. So I could take a (cheaper) dry yeast, the one you mentioned and it wouldn't change too much this late in the game? Because I really like where the beer is going at the moment

I think I have learned two big things at least;
- don't mess with the recipe last minute (at least if you are not super knowledgable)
- brew with the seasons, if you have no way to temp-control (I'd say I can easily brew a lager in the cellar in the winter, one ale in autumn and in spring at room temp. and one ale in the summer in the cellar.)

I'll post in a couple of days after my next sg reading. I am kind of hopefull that the yeast reactivated because there was a bubble every 60 seconds for the last couple of days (before there were none).

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] I'll do that, if the heat treatment doesn't work out. So I could take a (cheaper) dry yeast, the one you mentioned and it wouldn't change too much this late in the game? Because I really like where the beer is going at the moment

I think I have learned two big things at least;
- don't mess with the recipe last minute (at least if you are not super knowledgable)
- brew with the seasons, if you have no way to temp-control (I'd say I can easily brew a lager in the cellar in the winter, one ale in autumn and in spring at room temp. and one ale in the summer in the cellar.)

I'll post in a couple of days after my next sg reading. I am kind of hopefull that the yeast reactivated because there was a bubble every 60 seconds for the last couple of days (before there were none).

You're getting the idea, let the seasons direct your brew style!

There's a good chance your 3787 has resumed. Let it go for a few more weeks as you've been doing. It could be off-gassing or fermentation, just let it be. Activity is good, and no need to take gravity readings until that has stopped for a week.

 

[steveabt12]

I have used this one once and was satisfied. www.bieresdumonde.fr

 

[Tulbi]

So, I took a new SG reading (at 77F each, I corrected the readings with a converter).
The Abt-clone is down -0.003 and the chouffe clone -0.005 (which is a bit odd, as the abt clone started with a higher OG).

So there is definite progress, I think I might be able to bottle it in 1-2 weeks if it goes on like this.

Now I have to correct everything with the +0.005 margin the hydrometer is off

For the Abt:
OG = 1.069 - 0.005 = 1.064
SGnow = 1.027 - 0.005 = 1.022
ABV = around 7.10
Apparent attenuation = 66%

For the chouffe:
OG = 1.055 - 0.005 = 1.050
SGnow = 1.025 - 0.005 = 1.020
ABV = around 4
Apparent attenuation = 100*(1.050-1.020)/(0.050) = 60%

I`m not really sure at what attenuation I should aim at now :-/
Considering that my hydrometer was quite off, I should not expect the beers to get super alcoholic, right?

@steveabt12
Thanks for the link, that`s quite a cool site.
I can`t really figure out wether they deliver to switzerland (switzerland is not listed, all the neighbouring countries are...).
But if I ever can`t find some ingredient in my swiss stores I`m sure I`ll look deeper into it

 

[IslandLizard]

^ Looks like it's coming along slowly.

The strangest thing is your "chouffe" is lower OG and shows less attenuation. The lower OGs tend to be ahead, not behind.

Now yeast has her own schedule, and doesn't care what we think. So we'll have to wait and see what she's coming up with in the end.

 

[Tulbi]

It is bubbling quite strongly at the moment, about one bubble every 5-10 seconds

So I just do it like I would do it normally. Wait until there is no more activity again (while keeping it at 75-80F)?

Thank you very much for your help!

 

[Tulbi]

So, after quite intesive bubbling over the course of more than a week there was a heating defect and the temp. of the batches dropped to 17C/63F.
The fermentation almost stopped completely.

The SG of both batches dropped to (1.012 - .005) = 1.007.
(EDIT: I made a second measurement with the yeast settled and the sample decanted and it is basically (1.010 - .005) 1.005 in both.)

This is quite some progress. The beers still taste good. The alcohol is really there now.
I'm not sure if reheating the beers at that moment is a good idea.
I wanted to just let the batches ferment out but 1.007 (1.005!) is already quite a low SG, right.

Basically I would be happy to bottle the beer how it is, I'm only concerned with proper carbonation and preventing bottle bombs.

Oh and yeah; there is really a lot if yeast in suspension (so that when I chill the sg-samples there is a 0.5cm yeast settlement... and this is only for about half the volume of a beer bottle.
Is there a way to get some of the yeast out (e.g. cooling the batches before bottling)?

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

1.007 sounds really low on your 1.064 beer...

If it's done, you can safely bottle it. Except, it's hard to tell it's done since it stopped fermenting because of low temps, not because it ran out of fuel (fermentable sugars). Chances are it's done, but not 100% guarantee.

Read up about cold crashing and what it can do to clear cloudy beer. Just don't use a blow off tube and jar while cold crashing.

 

[Tulbi]

I read a problem with cold crashing is, that it sucks in oxygen.
When I cool my samples, the yeast falls out really fast (most of it falls out after 20min in the fridge).
If the beer is exposed to oxygen at a low temperature for a short while, should it be ok?

So I was thinking about doing it like this.
- Cool it overnight (for about 15 hours)
- put priming sugar in, stirr gently (let it dissolve for 10-20 minutes) edit: no, obviously I would stir it in already dissolved
- bottle the beer
- let the bottles carbonate at room temperature 68-72 degrees

Could this work? What could I do better?

Concerning bottle bombs.
I mean, I had the beer at reeally high temperatures before. The real 'second' fermentation only really started close to 80F.
Am I right to assume that there won't be major fermentation if I let it carbonate at 65-70F?

 

[IslandLizard]

The amount of air (21% oxygen) you "suck in" and add to the headspace is minimal, and its effects pale to what you've put this beer through already.

We cold crash until the beer is clear or mostly clear, usually 1-3 days, or longer, depending on the yeast and other factors. Cold crashing works best at 32-34°F. Sometimes gelatin is needed to help along.

You cannot mix priming sugar with a yeast cake laying on the bottom. Stirring it to disperse the sugar water evenly will stir up the yeast as well. To do this without stirring up the yeast, you'll need to rack to another vessel, usually a bottling bucket, then add the priming solution and stir gently. All without splashing and oxygenating your beer.

 

[Tulbi]

So, I did everything as you told me. And opened the first bottle (it`s actually a pet bottle in which I put a blend of both of the left overs).

Towards the end I was not so sure if the beer was still tasty (I prefered the beer before inducing the `second fermentation`).
But now I`m kinda blown away. It tastes really good. Has a nice thick foam (which stays for a couple of minutes and then it is just a small foam), carbonation is ok could be better (will probably get better as the beer has only been bottled for 4.5 days).
But the belgian yeast together with some orange flavours are so nice.

I would not get angry if this was served to me in a bar ;-)

I just wanted to share, so that all of you who helped me so much could see that your efforts to help making homebrews to complete tools like me are at least sometimes succesfull.

Thanks a lot to anyone who helped

 

[IslandLizard]

So, I did everything as you told me. And opened the first bottle (it`s actually a pet bottle in which I put a blend of both of the left overs).

Towards the end I was not so sure if the beer was still tasty (I prefered the beer before inducing the `second fermentation`).
But now I`m kinda blown away. It tastes really good. Has a nice thick foam (which stays for a couple of minutes and then it is just a small foam), carbonation is ok could be better (will probably get better as the beer has only been bottled for 4.5 days).
But the belgian yeast together with some orange flavours are so nice.

I would not get angry if this was served to me in a bar ;-)

I just wanted to share, so that all of you who helped me so much could see that your efforts to help making homebrews to complete tools like me are at least sometimes succesfull.

Thanks a lot to anyone who helped

Glad it all worked out and you've brewed a tasty beer. Onto the next one... hopefully with a bit more planning and a lot less haphazardly. Apply all you've learned and review all suggestions made along the way, not just mine.

 

[Tulbi]

So, I just wanted to make a quick update and ask a question. So that People who may read it in the future might learn even more.

I overcarbed the beer slightly, resulting in a small beer fountain. It`s just about 1/15 of the beer and it Comes with a 3-5 second delay, so it`s not a big Problem. But for a future beer I would maybe take a Little bit less priming sugar than the beer calculator tells you to, for this Kind of beer.

The beer with the low abv (4.5-5) is much tastier than the stronger (7.5-8) one. It has quite a noticable alcoholic taste, but it might also be due to the non-fermentables (orange peel and coriander).

To the question:
I opened my 7th beer of that batch today and there was some major fountain. It basically exploded and at the end there was maybe only 1/5 of the beer still in the bottle.
Why did this happen?
My first thought was uneven priming. But I put the sugar in dilluted in water and swirled the beer a bit before bottling. Is it still possible that the sugar was unevenly distributed?
I also noticed a very small ring of (what appears to be) yeast around the bottle neck, where the beers Surface was. I didn`t see that in any of the other beers (only sediment at the bottom). Might this be a clue to what happened?
The beer tastes the same as far as I can tell.

 

[Kee]

So how much sugar did you prime with, and what was the volume of beer?

Gushers are caused by either over priming, infection, or incomplete fermentation.

 

[Kee]

And BTW, I would chill the rest of the batch with the gushers. Bottle bombs can be dangerous.

 

[xgjyuj]

I brew a lot of Belgians so take this how you want since it is my opinion, but it is your brew.

 

[steveabt12]

The ring around the neck might be a pellicle like you get with wild yeast or some other infection.

 

[Tulbi]

I don`t think the whole batch is infected. I didn`t see the ring in any of the other beers. And the beer doesn`t have any noticable off-flavours.
And they all produce massive fountains (only leaving about 1/5 in the bottle).
Overpriming I can not imagine to be the only Problem, as I only gave 3 volumes.
And the FG was 1.005-1.007, which should also not leave too much fermentable sugars in the bottles.

I guess it is probably a mix between the last two. Maybe I also miscalculated some stuff, or made wrong assumptions about how wrong my Hydrometer exactly is.