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I'm also at a loss how to innoculate 2 large beers with only a liter starter. That starter should be at least 2 liters to get sufficient growth, 1 liter is not enough. Do you have any DME or LME laying around? If so, make another liter of DME starter wort (1.040) and add to your existing starter in a clean and well sanitized wine jug.

Keep swirling for 12 hours then pitch half in each of your beers, aerate well and hope for the best.

Anyone have better ideas? Bueller?
 
Yeah, I ****ed it up.

Beergolf told me to do 7lb DME + specialty grains.
At the end I made 4kg (8+ lb) DME, 2kg (4+lb) Pilsner Grain + specialty grain...

I think I underestimated how important proper yeast is. My bad.

I also just saw that the yeast is from 30.Nov. so the viability is supposedly only at around 72%, which makes it even worse (this is the only thing that is not my fault ;) ).

The batches will now be quite underpitched, what will that exactly change? Off flavours and bigger potential for infections, right?
Is there still a good chance for me to get an ok-beer?

I will look into proper processes before I start the next batch. It`s only my second time brewing, so I was a bit stressed and not thinking clear. I should have informed myself about proper yeast starting and thought about the process and utensils from A-Z.

I`m sorry if I wasted peoples time :smack:
 
1) Freeze the 1.093 batch in plastic soda bottles or other plastic containers, NO GLASS. They will expand a bit, so don't fill too full!

2) Add another liter of 1.040 starter wort to the growing yeast you've got. Use DME if you have any left, or "borrow" a liter from the 1.063 batch, diluted to 1.040 (reboil and rechill that liter before adding). Let the yeast grow until tomorrow morning (swirl a lot) and pitch into your 1.063 batch. Aerate well. That should work.

3) When that batch is done, harvest the yeast, and ferment your 1.093 batch with that. The wort will need to be reboiled to pasteurize, most likely. And chilled before pitching yeast or racking on top of the old yeast cake of course.

P.S. November is fine for that yeast. Plenty of viability left. Yeast calculators are conservative.
 
Good idea.

I might be able to wait until tomorrow evening (36h for the starter).

If I borrowed 3 more liters from the wort (I used up all the DME, which is pretty stupid in retrospect), divided it up in 4 different starters with 1 liter each... swirled it quite a bit and then poured it in, would that work?

Thank you very much for your help.
 
Yes, you can. Just remember, sanitation remains very important. Handling yeast should be kept to a minimum in general and the containers, and everything that touches yeast and chilled wort should be meticulously clean and sanitized. If you can do that your beer will not get infected (turn sour or worse).

Agitation, swirling, incorporating O2 into the starter beer makes yeast grow new cells. No O2 it starts to ferment, and there is not much growth.
 
There is almost not bubbling at all, very little C02 except when I swirl the jug. And the yeast started to flocculate a bit (11h after starting it).

This points towards new cells and not a lot of Fermentation, if I`m not mistaken.

I will only double the starters, 1 Liter each. I don`t have the necessary jugs or stuff to do it properly with 4 Liters... I`ll see :D
 
Bubbling means fermentation, you always get some of that, unless you use a stir plate or shaker. In 1 liter starter it is probably done growing already. Split it and add 1 or better, 1.5 liter to each split. That will give you 3-4 liters by tomorrow morning. Provided you give it a good swirl every hour, or more frequently. As long as air can get in it will absorb the O2. But you can't leave it uncovered, that's why we put an aluminum foil cover (tent) over the neck of our narrow necked growlers or flasks.
 
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Not to beat you while your down but it is almost always better to lay back and research for a while to get prepared for brewing rather than winging it and figuring things out on the fly.

It's such an exciting hobby that people tend to get a bit ahead of themselves. Next time maybe a bit more planning and preparation is in order.
 
RPIScotty said:
Not to beat you while your down but it is almost always better to lay back and research for a while to get prepared for brewing rather than winging it and figuring things out on the fly.

It's such an exciting hobby that people tend to get a bit ahead of themselves. Next time maybe a bit more planning and preparation is in order.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I hope I do not come off as harsh, but you were given a lot of good advice by some very experienced brewers, and you did not follow it. Instead you went all crazy and did a lot of things against what we recommended. I understand being all gung ho as a new brewer, but you have to learn to walk before you run. You took some advice from column A and then added some advice from colum B and added them together, which totally went against what we recommended. If you would have just made a lower gravity brew (like what was recommended) and not made two brews, added the sugar after a couple of days of fermentation. You could have probably had a pretty good brew. Now you are at risk of making two brews that may or may not turn out, and quite possible be infected.

Please, just spend some time learning how to brew before going crazy. There are a lot of very experienced brewers on this forum that are very willing to help out new brewers. Just take some time to research and ask questions. Then listen to the advice given and you will learn to make very good brews.
 
Hello everyone

Thank you for the advice about research and as I said, I`m sorry for wasting your time and effort.

I have 4 Liters of starter now, I`m not quite sure how to tell when they`re ready. Each liter has about 0.5cm of Sediment at the bottom.

I read that it would be best to cold crash the yeast after some time (allthough the guide I read talked about doing that after 48h), so that the yeast falls out, I can decant the wort on top and then put only the yeast into the two batches...
Would it be best for me to cold crash the yeast starter or just put it in mixed up with the wort?
 
Honestly it's hard to even tell where you are at. Give us a detailed rundown of what happened and where you stand right now.
 
Good idea, I`ll try:

- Started the yeast starter 25h ago, 1000ml and 100g of DME.
- Cooled down the wort 23h ago, is at ca. 20C/69F ever since.
- Split up the yeast in two sanitised flasks, because of concerns about infections in the plastic bowl.
- Added about 2.5 Liters of the wort at 10.40 (specific gravity) about 14h ago. Split it up in 4 flasks.
- Whisked and later swirled it every hour or more when I was awake (slept 6h).

Temperature of the starter was always around 22C/71F.
Until this morning (6h ago) there was no krausen, now there is a bit. There is a relatively thin yeast sediment at the bottom of the flask, which is incorporated into the wort when swirled. Light carbonation happening, slow/steady stream of tiny bubbles rising to the top. There is a moderate yeasty smell coming from the starters.
 
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Yes, 100g of DME for 1 liter of distilled and cooled down water. (And then there was the nutrient pouch inside the wyeast obviously :) .)
Then 15h ago, about 2.5 liter of wort at around 1040
 
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Tulbi said:
Yes, 100mg of DME for 1 liter of distilled and cooled down water. (And then there was the nutrient pouch inside the wyeast obviously :) .)

Then 15h ago, about 2.5 liter of wort at around 1040
Click to expand...


So to be clear here: you put 0.1 grams of DME in 1L of water?
 
Sorry, I meant grams.
Got confused with grams/miligrams and the impirial units.
 
The only thing I can offer given the confusing nature of your brew day is to plan better. You did the right thing by asking tons of questions and next time that information should be used to plan the brew day prior to doing anything.

I'm hesitant to tell you to do anything in particular because it's rather difficult to unpack and sequence your brew day in a way where I'd actually know what went on.
 
Is there an other big mistake I made except for having too big of a Batch/ too little yeast?

I just basically have 26 Liters of wort (which should be ok) waiting and 3.5 liters of yeast starter going since 28h.

Just one question is rather urgent now:
Will cold crashing and the (partially) decanting help or not?
 
As long as your sanitation was on point then pitch your yeast and see what happens.
 
Tulbi said:
Is there an other big mistake I made except for having too big of a Batch/ too little yeast?

I just basically have 26 Liters of wort (which should be ok) waiting and 3.5 liters of yeast starter going since 28h.

Just one question is rather urgent now:
Will cold crashing and the (partially) decanting help or not?
Click to expand...

In your circumstances I would not cold crash. I prefer to cold crash when I have the time to plan ahead, but in a dark Belgian it's not likely to matter taste wise. In fact if your sanitizing processes are less than stellar pitching the whole starter has the advantage that the yeast are active and will outpace any stray bacteria.

Some brewers never cold crash, it's a legitimate technique, but there are pros and cons for both methods.
 
Kee said:
In your circumstances I would not cold crash. I prefer to cold crash when I have the time to plan ahead, but in a dark Belgian it's not likely to matter taste wise. In fact if your sanitizing processes are less than stellar pitching the whole starter has the advantage that the yeast are active and will outpace any stray bacteria.

Some brewers never cold crash, it's a legitimate technique, but there are pros and cons for both methods.
Click to expand...

+1^
This is the best advice at this point for this situation. DO NOT cold crash or decant the starters! You need all the yeast you've got to pitch into those 2 large beers.

I hope you're still going to dilute the 1.090 to 1.072 or so.
 
Hello everyone

I followed your advice this time (and hopefully correctly) and didn`t cold Crash.
The smaller batch was at 1055 and about 66F.
The bigger batch was at 1069 and about 65F.

I put a bit more (maybe 15-20%) yeast in the bigger batch (because of the bigger volume and the higher OG. Was I correct in doing so? I just read somewhere that higher gravity and bigger volume require more yeast but didn`t find a calculator that I was able to use to calculate it.

The ambient temperature will be around 62-66F (and it shouldn`t change too quickly). Should this be able to compensate for heat from the fermentation?

I`ll start putting the yeast in a warmer place (63-68F) in three days. And I will wrap it in a space blanket and/or a sleeping bag. This, together with the heat from the fermentation, should do the trick of raising the temperature to about 73F? :)

Thanks for dealing with me a lot. :) I really appreciate how helpfull (and knowledgable) everyone is on here, even if it might have not seemed that way.

I`ll keep you posted on any developments, and hope to be able to ask some noob questions again (if I can`t answer them with google).
 
Sooooo... welcome back :)

The fermentation took off quite rapidly, and was very intense (lots of almost constant bubbling thorugh the 's') a decent krausen was built.
Then somehow from yesterday to today the fermentation slowed down strongly and now the batch is too cold (hardly 62F, says the strip thermometer outside of the batch).

Now I don't know how to get it up to 72-73F again, the fermentation seems so slow (only bubbles coming through the 's' every minute or so) that I'm not sure isolation+exothermic fermentation will do the trick.
Would putting it in a warmer room 73F for 3-4 h and then wrapping it in a sleeping bag and spcae blanket work? Or should I just put it in the room that averages at 67F from the get go?

I will take specific gravity and exact temperature readings soon and then post them here :)
 
For the small Batch (Chouffe clone): SG= 1036 -> ABV around 2.5
For the bigger Batch (Abt clone): SG= 1042 -> ABV around 3.5

They both taste pretty good.
The Chouffe has quite a strong orange-Aroma, seems slightly sour (not sure if that is a very bad thing) but this could also just be my brain having `orange` and `sour` connected.
The Abt tastes quite beautiful, obviously still pretty sweet but with nice fruity flavours and some hint of a belgian yeastiness.

What has me a bit concerned is that the abt-clone seems to have fermented quite a lot quicker (a .027 drop versus a .019 drop in the chouffe-clone).
 
I don't remember what yeast you decided to use, but definitely move to a warmer area. You want to do everything possible to ensure attenuation and the high 70's F is what you are shooting for for most Belgian yeast after the first 48 hours or so.
 
I`m using the wyeast 3787 trappiste.

I moved it to a warmer area and now they are bubbling away quite well again. Can`t be because of the temperature yet, I think.
Maybe it`s just more C02 coming out now that it was agitated?
I read somewhere aswell that yeast can be activated quite quickly by Agitation, is that a possibility? :)
 
Put them in a warmer place, around 72-74F.

The best is steady temps, and somewhat on the lower side of the yeast's range during the first 3-7 days, depending on the yeast, the progress, and other factors. Then it can be finishing out at warmer temps, 5-7 degrees higher until it's finished.

For this yeast:

YEAST STRAIN: 3787 | Trappist High
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 74-78%
Temperature Range: 64-78F, 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11 to 12% ABV or higher

I hope you don't pull the lid off every day to look at it or take samples. Let it be for 3 weeks, just a little warmer.

Do NOT rack to "secondary."

Aside from HBT being one of the greatest and best resources for homebrewing, also read Palmer's How to Brew. Just ignore the "secondaries" thing and "yeast proofing." Pretty much everything else is still very valid.

When you want more in depth knowledge of any of the processes, or something doesn't quite satisfy your curiosity, start searching for better or more modern answers. The web and HBT are your friend.
 
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Hey IslandLizard

Thanks a lot for the advice :)

I haven`t open the lid once, and I think I won`t
I`ll try to Keep the temperatures as steady as possible, I`m brewing at my parents place and they have a wood-oven and not such good insulation. So the room temperature just drops 3-4°C every night, not a lot I can do about that...
But wrapping them should keep the temperatures inside a bit more steady right?

So, for the small batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.015 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 5.25 ABV.
And for the big batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.019 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 7.7 ABV.
Does that sound about right? :)

I`m still reading the intermediate/advanced stuff from Papaziahs `Joy of Homebrewing` and some specific stuff from HowtoBrew and BYO. Plus I have a membership for `the beer connoisseur`, allthough it`s not thaaat helpfull for homebrewing but still interesting :)
 
Tulbi said:
Hey IslandLizard

Thanks a lot for the advice :)

I haven`t open the lid once, and I think I won`t
I`ll try to Keep the temperatures as steady as possible, I`m brewing at my parents place and they have a wood-oven and not such good insulation. So the room temperature just drops 3-4°C every night, not a lot I can do about that...
But wrapping them should keep the temperatures inside a bit more steady right?

So, for the small batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.015 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 5.25 ABV.
And for the big batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.019 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 7.7 ABV.
Does that sound about right? :)

I`m still reading the intermediate/advanced stuff from Papaziahs `Joy of Homebrewing` and some specific stuff from HowtoBrew and BYO. Plus I have a membership for `the beer connoisseur`, allthough it`s not thaaat helpfull for homebrewing but still interesting :)
Click to expand...

That's a good link that Island Lizard gave. I have the hard copy. Joy of Homebrewing is more outdated (but fun to read).

I would not even make a guess what your final gravity might be. All grain batches with WY3787 will beat the stated attenuation percentage under the right conditions. Keeping it warm is your best bet.
 
true.. The worst thing you can do for a Belgian yeast is let the temp drop during frementation. Once it heats up try to keep the temp up or it can stall if it cools off too much.
 
So, I got the temp. to 72-73F.
Now I put it to a place, where the ambient temperature should range from 67-71F.
I put both batches on a thick cushion, blankets around and on top, a space blanket on top of everything and then a thinner blanker just to keep it in place.
Do you think that should give a constant temperature in the optimal range?
Well anyways, I feel like it's the best I can do right now. :-/ :)

Do you have any advice when the next time should be, when I take a gravity and temperature reading?

Thank you very much for your help!
 
So, the bubbling was very intense for ~30h, then it slowly dropped and now it is bubbling only seldomly again.

The batch dropped from 74F at the very beginning to hardly 69F (now) even though the ambient temperature hardly ever fell und 68F (and was for the most time over 70F.
Really strange, considering that I read that the fermentation should give at least +4F.

The insulation should also have been pretty good :(

Best I can do now is put it near a radiator and let it slowly (I did it over the course of ~12h the last time) get up to 72-73F again.

Do you have any other tips for me?
[I can't put the batches anywhere near the radiator for the whole time, because the ommitted heat is very unregular. But I will be able to more closely track the temperatures over the course of the next few days :) ]
 
When it's warm in the house, let the fermentor get warm, no insulation around it. Before it starts to cool off in the house wrap a sleeping bag around it. If you have a heating pad or electric blanket that can be wrapped around the fermentor, then a sleeping bag around that, to keep the heat in.

When fermentation is strong there is more heat produced in the beer than the fermentor can dissipate to the environment, hence the temps of the fermenting beer inside the fermentor go up. If you have a glue-on thermometer strip on the outside of the fermentor, you measure the temps there, not the inside, which during that time can be 4-6°F higher.

After the first few days, action tapers off and ambient temps prevail through the whole fermentor and the temps measured on the outside are equal to the ones inside. You're in that phase now.

The beer should not get warmer than 76 degrees now. Trying to keep it as steady as possible is about all you can do.
 
I got it to a constant 73F.
Bubbling is still just as slow.

I will be able to keep it at a consistent temperature for the next couple of days :)

Could it be, that the beer already has a pretty good attenuation? (I will take a SG reading on thursday.)
Because if I had to just use bubble-counting as a semi-proportional measurement to fermentation/time. Then it should have fermented at least as much after the last reading as before (probably even more).
So the yeast might already slow down normally?
[It would still be quite a step to the intended abv. The last brew jumped from 5.2 to 6.5 abv after all fermentation had ceased to bubble and I put it in the secondary. (No worries, I won't do it with this beer ^^.)]
 
So, I took the reading.

1028 for both batches.

This means both should get about a .010 SG-drop until bottling. Is this realistic (I planned on waiting maybe 2 weeks until bottling) as there is almost no bubbling anymore.

I tasted both test-samples and they still taste about the same -> pretty good
 
Two questions:

- how long should I wait until bottling (min./max.)?

- how should I bottle it?
a). I used all my fermentation kettles (with the lock and bottling rod, which I used to bottle the last time)
b). How do I add the priming sugar without stirring up all the yeast? Do I have to buy priming-drops?


Thanks very much for your help.
 
Wait at least 3 weeks before bottling. It may need longer. If it's not done fermenting when bottling you'll get bottle bombs. 1.028 is still way too high!

You could use priming drops or make your own by dissolving the right amount of sugar in the right amount of (boiling) water and dose each bottle precisely using a syringe.
 
I'm really confused.

I took a specific gravity reading and it is 1030 on both batches now.

Could it be, that because I 'tap' it from the kettle (so I don't have to open it), that there is too much yeast in suspension and that somehow schews the readings?

Anyway, it seems as if I won't get the beer to a good attenuation like this.
Is there a way to reactivate the yeast? Temperatures were much too low, I can't change that because I am travelling a lot and if I put them near a the stove the batches would get much too warm (probably 84F+).
So as long as I am there I can move the batches back and forth (and keep the heat with a blanket), but as soon as I am not there the heat plummets.

I'd be able to keep an eye on the beers for the next week or so. Should I buy some yeast and pitch some more? Should I buy some yeast nutrients? Should I oxygenate?

It is a bit of a shame, because the brews both taste really good :)
 
Some Belgian yeasts are known to get stuck right around 1030. I think I recall you used 3787, which is one of those yeasts. Too much temp variation is one of the possible causes. Do a search for "stuck 3787" or something similar. A few possibilities - rouse the yeast and warm up to about 80F or pitch some more yeast or add a little sugar to restart fermentation or add some amylase enzymes or any combination of these. Warming up and rousing has worked for me in the past.
 

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