Belgian Dark Recipe Feedback

[IslandLizard]

In your circumstances I would not cold crash. I prefer to cold crash when I have the time to plan ahead, but in a dark Belgian it's not likely to matter taste wise. In fact if your sanitizing processes are less than stellar pitching the whole starter has the advantage that the yeast are active and will outpace any stray bacteria.

Some brewers never cold crash, it's a legitimate technique, but there are pros and cons for both methods.

+1^
This is the best advice at this point for this situation. DO NOT cold crash or decant the starters! You need all the yeast you've got to pitch into those 2 large beers.

I hope you're still going to dilute the 1.090 to 1.072 or so.

 

[Tulbi]

Hello everyone

I followed your advice this time (and hopefully correctly) and didn`t cold Crash.
The smaller batch was at 1055 and about 66F.
The bigger batch was at 1069 and about 65F.

I put a bit more (maybe 15-20%) yeast in the bigger batch (because of the bigger volume and the higher OG. Was I correct in doing so? I just read somewhere that higher gravity and bigger volume require more yeast but didn`t find a calculator that I was able to use to calculate it.

The ambient temperature will be around 62-66F (and it shouldn`t change too quickly). Should this be able to compensate for heat from the fermentation?

I`ll start putting the yeast in a warmer place (63-68F) in three days. And I will wrap it in a space blanket and/or a sleeping bag. This, together with the heat from the fermentation, should do the trick of raising the temperature to about 73F?

Thanks for dealing with me a lot. I really appreciate how helpfull (and knowledgable) everyone is on here, even if it might have not seemed that way.

I`ll keep you posted on any developments, and hope to be able to ask some noob questions again (if I can`t answer them with google).

 

[Tulbi]

Sooooo... welcome back

The fermentation took off quite rapidly, and was very intense (lots of almost constant bubbling thorugh the 's') a decent krausen was built.
Then somehow from yesterday to today the fermentation slowed down strongly and now the batch is too cold (hardly 62F, says the strip thermometer outside of the batch).

Now I don't know how to get it up to 72-73F again, the fermentation seems so slow (only bubbles coming through the 's' every minute or so) that I'm not sure isolation+exothermic fermentation will do the trick.
Would putting it in a warmer room 73F for 3-4 h and then wrapping it in a sleeping bag and spcae blanket work? Or should I just put it in the room that averages at 67F from the get go?

I will take specific gravity and exact temperature readings soon and then post them here

 

[Tulbi]

For the small Batch (Chouffe clone): SG= 1036 -> ABV around 2.5
For the bigger Batch (Abt clone): SG= 1042 -> ABV around 3.5

They both taste pretty good.
The Chouffe has quite a strong orange-Aroma, seems slightly sour (not sure if that is a very bad thing) but this could also just be my brain having `orange` and `sour` connected.
The Abt tastes quite beautiful, obviously still pretty sweet but with nice fruity flavours and some hint of a belgian yeastiness.

What has me a bit concerned is that the abt-clone seems to have fermented quite a lot quicker (a .027 drop versus a .019 drop in the chouffe-clone).

 

[Kee]

I don't remember what yeast you decided to use, but definitely move to a warmer area. You want to do everything possible to ensure attenuation and the high 70's F is what you are shooting for for most Belgian yeast after the first 48 hours or so.

 

[Tulbi]

I`m using the wyeast 3787 trappiste.

I moved it to a warmer area and now they are bubbling away quite well again. Can`t be because of the temperature yet, I think.
Maybe it`s just more C02 coming out now that it was agitated?
I read somewhere aswell that yeast can be activated quite quickly by Agitation, is that a possibility?

 

[IslandLizard]

Put them in a warmer place, around 72-74F.

The best is steady temps, and somewhat on the lower side of the yeast's range during the first 3-7 days, depending on the yeast, the progress, and other factors. Then it can be finishing out at warmer temps, 5-7 degrees higher until it's finished.

For this yeast:

YEAST STRAIN: 3787 | Trappist High
Flocculation: Medium
Attenuation: 74-78%
Temperature Range: 64-78F, 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: 11 to 12% ABV or higher

I hope you don't pull the lid off every day to look at it or take samples. Let it be for 3 weeks, just a little warmer.

Do NOT rack to "secondary."

Aside from HBT being one of the greatest and best resources for homebrewing, also read Palmer's How to Brew. Just ignore the "secondaries" thing and "yeast proofing." Pretty much everything else is still very valid.

When you want more in depth knowledge of any of the processes, or something doesn't quite satisfy your curiosity, start searching for better or more modern answers. The web and HBT are your friend.

 

[Tulbi]

Hey IslandLizard

Thanks a lot for the advice

I haven`t open the lid once, and I think I won`t
I`ll try to Keep the temperatures as steady as possible, I`m brewing at my parents place and they have a wood-oven and not such good insulation. So the room temperature just drops 3-4°C every night, not a lot I can do about that...
But wrapping them should keep the temperatures inside a bit more steady right?

So, for the small batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.015 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 5.25 ABV.
And for the big batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.019 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 7.7 ABV.
Does that sound about right?

I`m still reading the intermediate/advanced stuff from Papaziahs `Joy of Homebrewing` and some specific stuff from HowtoBrew and BYO. Plus I have a membership for `the beer connoisseur`, allthough it`s not thaaat helpfull for homebrewing but still interesting

 

[Kee]

Hey IslandLizard

Thanks a lot for the advice

I haven`t open the lid once, and I think I won`t
I`ll try to Keep the temperatures as steady as possible, I`m brewing at my parents place and they have a wood-oven and not such good insulation. So the room temperature just drops 3-4°C every night, not a lot I can do about that...
But wrapping them should keep the temperatures inside a bit more steady right?

So, for the small batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.015 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 5.25 ABV.
And for the big batch I`ll need a final gravity of 1.019 to get 73% of apparent attenuation and this would result in 7.7 ABV.
Does that sound about right?

I`m still reading the intermediate/advanced stuff from Papaziahs `Joy of Homebrewing` and some specific stuff from HowtoBrew and BYO. Plus I have a membership for `the beer connoisseur`, allthough it`s not thaaat helpfull for homebrewing but still interesting

That's a good link that Island Lizard gave. I have the hard copy. Joy of Homebrewing is more outdated (but fun to read).

I would not even make a guess what your final gravity might be. All grain batches with WY3787 will beat the stated attenuation percentage under the right conditions. Keeping it warm is your best bet.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Put them in a warmer place, around 72-74F.

+1 on this

 

[beergolf]

true.. The worst thing you can do for a Belgian yeast is let the temp drop during frementation. Once it heats up try to keep the temp up or it can stall if it cools off too much.

 

[Tulbi]

So, I got the temp. to 72-73F.
Now I put it to a place, where the ambient temperature should range from 67-71F.
I put both batches on a thick cushion, blankets around and on top, a space blanket on top of everything and then a thinner blanker just to keep it in place.
Do you think that should give a constant temperature in the optimal range?
Well anyways, I feel like it's the best I can do right now. :-/

Do you have any advice when the next time should be, when I take a gravity and temperature reading?

Thank you very much for your help!

 

[Tulbi]

So, the bubbling was very intense for ~30h, then it slowly dropped and now it is bubbling only seldomly again.

The batch dropped from 74F at the very beginning to hardly 69F (now) even though the ambient temperature hardly ever fell und 68F (and was for the most time over 70F.
Really strange, considering that I read that the fermentation should give at least +4F.

The insulation should also have been pretty good

Best I can do now is put it near a radiator and let it slowly (I did it over the course of ~12h the last time) get up to 72-73F again.

Do you have any other tips for me?
[I can't put the batches anywhere near the radiator for the whole time, because the ommitted heat is very unregular. But I will be able to more closely track the temperatures over the course of the next few days ]

 

[IslandLizard]

When it's warm in the house, let the fermentor get warm, no insulation around it. Before it starts to cool off in the house wrap a sleeping bag around it. If you have a heating pad or electric blanket that can be wrapped around the fermentor, then a sleeping bag around that, to keep the heat in.

When fermentation is strong there is more heat produced in the beer than the fermentor can dissipate to the environment, hence the temps of the fermenting beer inside the fermentor go up. If you have a glue-on thermometer strip on the outside of the fermentor, you measure the temps there, not the inside, which during that time can be 4-6°F higher.

After the first few days, action tapers off and ambient temps prevail through the whole fermentor and the temps measured on the outside are equal to the ones inside. You're in that phase now.

The beer should not get warmer than 76 degrees now. Trying to keep it as steady as possible is about all you can do.

 

[Tulbi]

I got it to a constant 73F.
Bubbling is still just as slow.

I will be able to keep it at a consistent temperature for the next couple of days

Could it be, that the beer already has a pretty good attenuation? (I will take a SG reading on thursday.)
Because if I had to just use bubble-counting as a semi-proportional measurement to fermentation/time. Then it should have fermented at least as much after the last reading as before (probably even more).
So the yeast might already slow down normally?
[It would still be quite a step to the intended abv. The last brew jumped from 5.2 to 6.5 abv after all fermentation had ceased to bubble and I put it in the secondary. (No worries, I won't do it with this beer ^^.)]

 

[Tulbi]

So, I took the reading.

1028 for both batches.

This means both should get about a .010 SG-drop until bottling. Is this realistic (I planned on waiting maybe 2 weeks until bottling) as there is almost no bubbling anymore.

I tasted both test-samples and they still taste about the same -> pretty good

 

[Tulbi]

Two questions:

- how long should I wait until bottling (min./max.)?

- how should I bottle it?
a). I used all my fermentation kettles (with the lock and bottling rod, which I used to bottle the last time)
b). How do I add the priming sugar without stirring up all the yeast? Do I have to buy priming-drops?


Thanks very much for your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

Wait at least 3 weeks before bottling. It may need longer. If it's not done fermenting when bottling you'll get bottle bombs. 1.028 is still way too high!

You could use priming drops or make your own by dissolving the right amount of sugar in the right amount of (boiling) water and dose each bottle precisely using a syringe.

 

[Tulbi]

I'm really confused.

I took a specific gravity reading and it is 1030 on both batches now.

Could it be, that because I 'tap' it from the kettle (so I don't have to open it), that there is too much yeast in suspension and that somehow schews the readings?

Anyway, it seems as if I won't get the beer to a good attenuation like this.
Is there a way to reactivate the yeast? Temperatures were much too low, I can't change that because I am travelling a lot and if I put them near a the stove the batches would get much too warm (probably 84F+).
So as long as I am there I can move the batches back and forth (and keep the heat with a blanket), but as soon as I am not there the heat plummets.

I'd be able to keep an eye on the beers for the next week or so. Should I buy some yeast and pitch some more? Should I buy some yeast nutrients? Should I oxygenate?

It is a bit of a shame, because the brews both taste really good

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Some Belgian yeasts are known to get stuck right around 1030. I think I recall you used 3787, which is one of those yeasts. Too much temp variation is one of the possible causes. Do a search for "stuck 3787" or something similar. A few possibilities - rouse the yeast and warm up to about 80F or pitch some more yeast or add a little sugar to restart fermentation or add some amylase enzymes or any combination of these. Warming up and rousing has worked for me in the past.

 

[Tulbi]

Thanks for the tips.

I'm warming it up right now. I don't have an exact heating system (wood ovens can be very tricky) and I don't know how dangerous overshooting (higher than 84 would be really unprobable) would be to the yeast?

And what does 'rousing' exactly mean? I read that getting too much oxygen into the beer at this stage is rather a bad thing, so I just ask so I wont mess it up

Thank you very much and I am reading up the other posts on you key-words now.
[E.g. I read something about pitching it on an 'existing cake'. Does that mean getting the yeast-settlememt from another brew into the mix? I wouldn't have one eitherway but yeah ^^]

 

[IslandLizard]

After you tap some for a sample, let it sit for a while until it sediments out. Only use clear or slightly cloudy beer to test.

Do you use a hydrometer or refractometer to measure your gravity? Have you checked it against plain or distilled water, to calibrate? Temperature should be ideally around 60F or 66F depending on the instrument, but the temp error would be insignificant around 1.030.

As said before, you heavily underpitched yeast, and stalling at 1.020-1.030 is a common occurrence when you do that. As I said before, fluctuating temps can make yeast go dormant.

At this point you can warm the batch up to around 75F, and keep it at that temp for a few weeks. Perhaps even 80F. A slight careful swirling or stirring to rouse the yeast helps to get it back into suspension. When doing so, be careful not to introduce air into the beer, it will oxidize it. Again those temps need to be consistent for a few weeks to see any results. That is if the yeast can be coaxed to do so.

If the gravity is indeed around 1.030, a new pitching of yeast can help, but it has to be with a fairly large yeast starter that's at the top of it's potential, at high krausen. Look it up, learn all there is to know about restarting a stalled fermentation, the ups and downs and prevent possible problems.

Do NOT aerate your beer, it will oxidize, which is bad. Your current yeast is done growing anyway. There may have not been enough cells to ferment all the sugars, and the rising alcohol levels may have killed a bunch of them in the process.

 

[Tulbi]

But what about stiring the yeast settlement (I'm not sure if this is the proper term.) into the beer with a spoon?

Edit: I think we cross posted. I take it that this is what you two mean with rousing/stirring to rouse.
I will try that first and if that doesn't work I will let them send me some more yeast and some dme (I take it that dme is best for yeast starters?) for a big starter

Thank you both.

 

[IslandLizard]

But what a out stiring the yeast settlement (I'm not sure if this is the proper term.) into the beer with a spoon?

A long spoon, sure, but use utter sanitation! Do you have a good sanitizer now?

Opening those fermentors will introduce bacteria to your unfinished beer and they may get a foothold and you'll end up with sour beer. A swirling motion keeping the lid on is safer in that regard.

BTW, have you read How to Brew yet?

 

[Tulbi]

I just tested the hydrometer in water. It showed 1005.
It was not distilled water. But that would make me think it is probably way off.

But even if the beers were in fact closer to 1025 they would still need fermenting.

 

[Tulbi]

I swirled it and have it quite warm now (it's still quite a bit under 75F but I don't want to do it too fast so I don't overshoot it). Until now nothing happened really. I'll wait until tomorrow evenig and if nothing changes I will add some sugar to it.
Do you have any suggestions how much? And I'm thinking it is probably best to add it already dissolved in water, am I right there?

I did read the chapter about malted barley and found it quite informative. I don't really like to read long texts on the internet (especially because I don't have accces to big screens too often), so I'm looking at how to buy it? Amazon is a pain in the ass here and bookshops tell me they could order it but it would take about a month to arrive ^^

 

[IslandLizard]

I swirled it and have it quite warm now (it's still quite a bit under 75F but I don't want to do it too fast so I don't overshoot it). Until now nothing happened really. I'll wait until tomorrow evenig and if nothing changes I will add some sugar to it.
Do you have any suggestions how much? And I'm thinking it is probably best to add it already dissolved in water, am I right there?

I did read the chapter about malted barley and found it quite informative. I don't really like to read long texts on the internet (especially because I don't have accces to big screens too often), so I'm looking at how to buy it? Amazon is a pain in the ass here and bookshops tell me they could order it but it would take about a month to arrive ^^

At this point you will not see any signs of fermentation, as it will be very sloooooow. That's the main reason to pitch a large amount of healthy yeast at the beginning (with good oxygenation) so more cells can do the heavy lifting, and enough are left standing to finish it out. Keep it warm is the best at this point.

Adding sugar will not necessarily wake up your yeast, but will add more gravity, making it sweeter, the opposite of what you want to achieve.

Read back in this thread, many suggestions have been posted to finish this beer out if/when it stalls. The last one was from me to make a new large starter and pitch that at high krausen.

On How to Brew:
Learning is part of brewing, since not many of us were born knowing this natively. The book is more in depth and modern than the web version, but 99% of the site is still valid today, and I simply use it to quickly find things or look something up. I prefer reading the book too, and have several copies, one on each floor, just in case.

Not sure why you find Amazon a PITA, it's a great resource, although I don't subscribe to all their (or anyone else's) big business antics. For example, even trying to browse the site's larger vendors is moronic. I'm sure you can find that book if you beat the bushes, so to speak. eBay?

Aside from the book/site, our HBT here, BYO, Beersmith.com, Brulosophy.com and a whole bunch of other sites are amazingly good resources to learn and improve your brewing. It doesn't happen overnight, and everyone makes mistakes. The key is to understand the processes and why some are better than others, regardless of personal preference. Such as omitting secondaries, growing healthy yeast starters, keeping ferm temps constant, etc.

Stay with it!

 

[Tulbi]

Thank you very much for the extensive advice

So my best bet (to notice if the higher temperatures reactivated a sloooow fermentation) is probably just to take a SG reading in a couple of days or so?
If it hasn't dropped significantly (I'd say more than 0.002 would be) I would try to pitch a new starter.

[Amazon is cool if you're not in switz erland. Here most international trade moves quite slow. But it is probably my best option at the moment ]

 

[IslandLizard]

YVW!

It may take a week or longer, not days, before your gravity has moved a few points. I would give it at least a week before taking another sample. And subtract .005 from your hydrometer reading, to get the real gravity. You can swirl it up every day, just don't "shake" it.

You could make a small 1 gallon size batch at 1.070 OG with a dry yeast, like US-05 or S-04, even Nottingham if you can get it. Or build one from liquid yeast, in 2 or 3 steps, then pitch the last step. You would want it to go into high krausen, usually a day or 2 after pitching. The timing is essential. Then pitch 1/2 gallon each into your 2 stalled beers. Keep them warm around 75F. Or even a little more, 80 being the upper limit. Resurrecting a stalled higher gravity beer is tricky, since the odds are stacked against you. And you need to use good sanitation or it may end up getting infected.

I thought Europe had finally caught on with "international" trades. Some Amazon US or UK vendors or private seller may mail to Switzerland for a marginal extra shipping charge. Have you tried eBay?

 

[steveabt12]

Hi Tulbi
Homebrew supplies are not that widespread in Europe (except UK). Here in France I use four different suppliers, all good quality and price located in France, Belgium and Germany and they deliver to Switzerland. So if you want details please let me know.