Belgian Dark Recipe Feedback

[Tulbi]

Hello everyone

The ingredients arrived and I`m going to start brewing very soon.

Did I understand everything correctly?

- Shred the pilsner and the caramünch grain
- Pour it into a 160F water, let it in 150F for about an hour.
- Extract the wort, leave the grain behind.
- Fill up the kettle of wort with more water, bring to a boil
- stir in the DME
- Put in the hops at the forementioned time.

At what time should I start the starter for the yeast? I will put the package of yeast together with 100g DME and 1000ml water.
Temperature should be around 24C/75F for the yeast, right?

Thanks for your help

I wanted to add some flaked wheat to the not-abt recipe (the one with spices) because that is how the `tripel karmeliet` has aswell (spices and hops are similar to the ones from LaChouffe).
When would I add that and at what temperatures?

 

[Tulbi]

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

A starter typically needs 12 - 24 hours to increase your yeast count (there are calculators like Yeastcalc that will help figure your yeast count). What you can do is just get your brew into your fermenter and get your airlock on. Let your starter work for a while longer until you see a krausen develop. Then give a few more hours for the krausen to peak and pitch it into your brew. This is pitching at peak krausen. As long as your fermenter and airlock are fully sanitized (as I'm sure they are), don't worry about letting the wort sit. There are folks that have waited a day or two before pitching with no ill effects.

 

[Kee]

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

If you dump the whole starter in (which if fine for a small starter) 18-24 hours is optimal. If you shake the starter every hour or so (I am assuming you don't have a stir plate) you will increase the cell count more.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey cvhjck

I just brewed a sint bernardus abt 12 clone and a some Kind of a mix between an abt 12, a LaChouffe and a Tripel Karmeliet.

Now I only have to wait for the temps of the two Batches to cool down and then add my starter.

I only started my starter 4h ago.
Boiled a Liter with 100g of DME and then cooled it down to 74F and added the yeast (which I had in a baine marie before for 30min at about 70F).
Do you know how long I should wait until I can add the starter to the Batches?

The starter is bubbling slightly at the Moment, and the plastic foil is clearly bulging.
Beergolf told me to let the yeast double (I guess that means doubling the amount of yeast cells).
The yeast cell number was 100 billions.
I have no real clue how to tell the cell-count or how to see when it doubled

cvhjck won't be answering you, he's just a regurgitator (and reported!).

Yeast starters should be started at least 2-4 days before brew day. In some cases longer. Do a search for yeast starters or read this post.

A (homemade) stir plate is best, but you can get by with swirling every hour or so. This allows them to grow, and depending on their viability it will take 1 or 2 days, sometimes longer. When the starter is completed, the jar with starter should be put in the fridge for a few days. The time spend in the fridge is called cold crashing and the yeast will settle in a thick, light tan layer on the bottom of your starter jar, leaving clear starter beer on the top.

On brew day, about an hour before you're ready to pitch your yeast, you take the jar from the fridge, pour off most of the clear starter beer leaving the yeast cake and some of the starter beer behind. Put the foil cap back on, swirl it up and let come to room temperature while you're finishing your brew.

When the wort is chilled and in the fermentor, swirl that jar of yeast up again and pour into the fermentor. Now it's beer! Aerate the beer as much as you can, for example, with a well-sanitized whisk or by shaking, all while keeping good sanitation practices. Remember that sweet wort is highly susceptible to infection from spoiling bacteria and other micro-organisms until the yeast gets a good foothold, which takes a day or so.

Now in your case here, I'm not really sure what to recommend. 4 hours is not enough for the starter to be completed. I'd say give it a few more hours of swirling and then pitch the whole starter into your beer. Aerate well.

 

[IslandLizard]

You brewed 2 batches, what are their volumes in the fermentors?
Do you know their gravity perhaps?
Or can you list what ingredients you used for each and how much of them?

 

[Tulbi]

Hey

Thanks for all the advice, very nice

The Batches got a bit bigger than I expected.

One Batch is about 13.5 Liters and at around 1063 (I sadly spilled a bit of the wort.)
One Batch is about 15 Liters and at around 1090 (Will have to dillute even further. The OG should be about 1072.)

Thank you for the the step by step advice on the starter.
I was a bit naive and just thought it couldn`t take more than a couple of hours.

Can I also whisk the starter (with a sanitary whisk of course)?

What`s my best bet now:
- Leave starter like this until tomorrow morning (24h in total, that`s sadly the longest I can wait) and then pour it into the whisked/aerated wort?
- Already pour the starter in the aerated wort this evening? (in about 7h)

EDIT:
The reason I consider the second Option because I`m a bit concerned about infections/ the wort going bad.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey

Thanks for all the advice, very nice

The Batches got a bit bigger than I expected.

One Batch is about 13.5 Liters and at around 1063 (I sadly spilled a bit of the wort.)
One Batch is about 15 Liters and at around 1090 (Will have to dillute even further. The OG should be about 1072.)

Thank you for the the step by step advice on the starter.
I was a bit naive and just thought it couldn`t take more than a couple of hours.

Can I also whisk the starter (with a sanitary whisk of course)?

What`s my best bet now:
- Leave starter like this until tomorrow morning (24h in total, that`s sadly the longest I can wait) and then pour it into the whisked/aerated wort?
- Already pour the starter in the aerated wort this evening? (in about 7h)

EDIT:
The reason I consider the second Option because I`m a bit concerned about infections/ the wort going bad.

Thanks for the detailed info. Yeah, they are much bigger than you originally were talking about. Do you happen to have any other yeast around? Reason is, that one smackpack of WY3522 wouldn't be enough for both, barely for one...

Definitely keep swirling that starter as often as you can, oxygen is good for starters. A warm 70-80F place is best for it. Put it in your Bain Marie perhaps?

What are you using as your starter vessel? How can you get a whisk in there, does it have a very wide mouth?

As long as you can prevent infection from anything getting inside your starter vessel it should all work out.

 

[Tulbi]

I have only bakers-yeast at hand sadly ^^

I have it in a wide open plastic Container. (I put in boiling water and chemipro oxi in there for a while before the wort and yeast.) I put cling film over it, a rubber band and a cutting board on top.

I could transfer it to one of those glass wine jugs with a narrow-ish opening (of course I`d sterilize it first). Could that be better or would it increase the risk of infection?

Then I`ll just aerate it quite often and pour it into the batches about 24h after I started the starter.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have only bakers-yeast at hand sadly ^^

I have it in a wide open plastic Container. (I put in boiling water and chemipro oxi in there for a while before the wort and yeast.) I put cling film over it, a rubber band and a cutting board on top.

I could transfer it to one of those glass wine jugs with a narrow-ish opening (of course I`d sterilize it first). Could that be better or would it increase the risk of infection?

Then I`ll just aerate it quite often and pour it into the batches about 24h after I started the starter.

Leave the baker's yeast for bread and sour dough, it is totally unsuitable for beer!

What do you use for a sanitizer? Boiling water?

I doubt Chempro Oxi is a sanitizer, it is likely more like "Oxiclean" an oxygenated washing soda, good for cleaning but doesn't kill micro-organisms very well. And it needs to be rinsed very well. For sanitizers we use Starsan or Iodophor, mostly, although bleach can be used too (not as convenient).

I guess you're not in the US. If I may ask, where in the world are you? Just curious.

Cleaning and sanitizing are related but 2 different things. We rarely sterilize in brewing, that's another step up and not often needed. To sterilize you'd need an autoclave (or oven if it can sustain high temps).

Anyway...
Each time you remove that plastic wrap the wide opening of that starter bowl is exposed to air and whatever bugs it carries ready to drop in.

I want to urge you to really read more around here on HBT, and see how many of us do things, before committing to a process. When you read about people making yeast starters you see flasks ($$) or (half) gallon wine jugs/growlers, even mason jars, never plastic bowls with a plastic wrap cover and a cutting board over it. I'm serious, you need to research and learn (quickly).

That plastic bowl is roundout scary
To grow yeast it needs oxygen (air). Yeah, a whisk is great, it can also introduce bugs whenever you whip with it, large open surface, drips from handle, etc.

I don't know how clean and sanitized those wine jugs are, that you've got there. Can they be cleaned and sanitized enough to prevent infecting your yeast starter and thus your beer, later?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm also at a loss how to innoculate 2 large beers with only a liter starter. That starter should be at least 2 liters to get sufficient growth, 1 liter is not enough. Do you have any DME or LME laying around? If so, make another liter of DME starter wort (1.040) and add to your existing starter in a clean and well sanitized wine jug.

Keep swirling for 12 hours then pitch half in each of your beers, aerate well and hope for the best.

Anyone have better ideas? Bueller?

 

[Tulbi]

Yeah, I ****ed it up.

Beergolf told me to do 7lb DME + specialty grains.
At the end I made 4kg (8+ lb) DME, 2kg (4+lb) Pilsner Grain + specialty grain...

I think I underestimated how important proper yeast is. My bad.

I also just saw that the yeast is from 30.Nov. so the viability is supposedly only at around 72%, which makes it even worse (this is the only thing that is not my fault ).

The batches will now be quite underpitched, what will that exactly change? Off flavours and bigger potential for infections, right?
Is there still a good chance for me to get an ok-beer?

I will look into proper processes before I start the next batch. It`s only my second time brewing, so I was a bit stressed and not thinking clear. I should have informed myself about proper yeast starting and thought about the process and utensils from A-Z.

I`m sorry if I wasted peoples time :smack:

 

[IslandLizard]

1) Freeze the 1.093 batch in plastic soda bottles or other plastic containers, NO GLASS. They will expand a bit, so don't fill too full!

2) Add another liter of 1.040 starter wort to the growing yeast you've got. Use DME if you have any left, or "borrow" a liter from the 1.063 batch, diluted to 1.040 (reboil and rechill that liter before adding). Let the yeast grow until tomorrow morning (swirl a lot) and pitch into your 1.063 batch. Aerate well. That should work.

3) When that batch is done, harvest the yeast, and ferment your 1.093 batch with that. The wort will need to be reboiled to pasteurize, most likely. And chilled before pitching yeast or racking on top of the old yeast cake of course.

P.S. November is fine for that yeast. Plenty of viability left. Yeast calculators are conservative.

 

[Tulbi]

Good idea.

I might be able to wait until tomorrow evening (36h for the starter).

If I borrowed 3 more liters from the wort (I used up all the DME, which is pretty stupid in retrospect), divided it up in 4 different starters with 1 liter each... swirled it quite a bit and then poured it in, would that work?

Thank you very much for your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, you can. Just remember, sanitation remains very important. Handling yeast should be kept to a minimum in general and the containers, and everything that touches yeast and chilled wort should be meticulously clean and sanitized. If you can do that your beer will not get infected (turn sour or worse).

Agitation, swirling, incorporating O2 into the starter beer makes yeast grow new cells. No O2 it starts to ferment, and there is not much growth.

 

[Tulbi]

There is almost not bubbling at all, very little C02 except when I swirl the jug. And the yeast started to flocculate a bit (11h after starting it).

This points towards new cells and not a lot of Fermentation, if I`m not mistaken.

I will only double the starters, 1 Liter each. I don`t have the necessary jugs or stuff to do it properly with 4 Liters... I`ll see

 

[IslandLizard]

Bubbling means fermentation, you always get some of that, unless you use a stir plate or shaker. In 1 liter starter it is probably done growing already. Split it and add 1 or better, 1.5 liter to each split. That will give you 3-4 liters by tomorrow morning. Provided you give it a good swirl every hour, or more frequently. As long as air can get in it will absorb the O2. But you can't leave it uncovered, that's why we put an aluminum foil cover (tent) over the neck of our narrow necked growlers or flasks.

 

[Big Monk]

Not to beat you while your down but it is almost always better to lay back and research for a while to get prepared for brewing rather than winging it and figuring things out on the fly.

It's such an exciting hobby that people tend to get a bit ahead of themselves. Next time maybe a bit more planning and preparation is in order.

 

[beergolf]

Not to beat you while your down but it is almost always better to lay back and research for a while to get prepared for brewing rather than winging it and figuring things out on the fly.

It's such an exciting hobby that people tend to get a bit ahead of themselves. Next time maybe a bit more planning and preparation is in order.

I agree with this. I hope I do not come off as harsh, but you were given a lot of good advice by some very experienced brewers, and you did not follow it. Instead you went all crazy and did a lot of things against what we recommended. I understand being all gung ho as a new brewer, but you have to learn to walk before you run. You took some advice from column A and then added some advice from colum B and added them together, which totally went against what we recommended. If you would have just made a lower gravity brew (like what was recommended) and not made two brews, added the sugar after a couple of days of fermentation. You could have probably had a pretty good brew. Now you are at risk of making two brews that may or may not turn out, and quite possible be infected.

Please, just spend some time learning how to brew before going crazy. There are a lot of very experienced brewers on this forum that are very willing to help out new brewers. Just take some time to research and ask questions. Then listen to the advice given and you will learn to make very good brews.

 

[Tulbi]

Hello everyone

Thank you for the advice about research and as I said, I`m sorry for wasting your time and effort.

I have 4 Liters of starter now, I`m not quite sure how to tell when they`re ready. Each liter has about 0.5cm of Sediment at the bottom.

I read that it would be best to cold crash the yeast after some time (allthough the guide I read talked about doing that after 48h), so that the yeast falls out, I can decant the wort on top and then put only the yeast into the two batches...
Would it be best for me to cold crash the yeast starter or just put it in mixed up with the wort?

 

[Big Monk]

Honestly it's hard to even tell where you are at. Give us a detailed rundown of what happened and where you stand right now.

 

[Tulbi]

Good idea, I`ll try:

- Started the yeast starter 25h ago, 1000ml and 100g of DME.
- Cooled down the wort 23h ago, is at ca. 20C/69F ever since.
- Split up the yeast in two sanitised flasks, because of concerns about infections in the plastic bowl.
- Added about 2.5 Liters of the wort at 10.40 (specific gravity) about 14h ago. Split it up in 4 flasks.
- Whisked and later swirled it every hour or more when I was awake (slept 6h).

Temperature of the starter was always around 22C/71F.
Until this morning (6h ago) there was no krausen, now there is a bit. There is a relatively thin yeast sediment at the bottom of the flask, which is incorporated into the wort when swirled. Light carbonation happening, slow/steady stream of tiny bubbles rising to the top. There is a moderate yeasty smell coming from the starters.

 

[Big Monk]

100mg of starter? Is that correct?

 

[Tulbi]

Yes, 100g of DME for 1 liter of distilled and cooled down water. (And then there was the nutrient pouch inside the wyeast obviously .)
Then 15h ago, about 2.5 liter of wort at around 1040

 

[Big Monk]

Yes, 100mg of DME for 1 liter of distilled and cooled down water. (And then there was the nutrient pouch inside the wyeast obviously .)

Then 15h ago, about 2.5 liter of wort at around 1040

So to be clear here: you put 0.1 grams of DME in 1L of water?

 

[Tulbi]

Sorry, I meant grams.
Got confused with grams/miligrams and the impirial units.

 

[Big Monk]

The only thing I can offer given the confusing nature of your brew day is to plan better. You did the right thing by asking tons of questions and next time that information should be used to plan the brew day prior to doing anything.

I'm hesitant to tell you to do anything in particular because it's rather difficult to unpack and sequence your brew day in a way where I'd actually know what went on.

 

[Tulbi]

Is there an other big mistake I made except for having too big of a Batch/ too little yeast?

I just basically have 26 Liters of wort (which should be ok) waiting and 3.5 liters of yeast starter going since 28h.

Just one question is rather urgent now:
Will cold crashing and the (partially) decanting help or not?

 

[Big Monk]

As long as your sanitation was on point then pitch your yeast and see what happens.

 

[Kee]

Is there an other big mistake I made except for having too big of a Batch/ too little yeast?

I just basically have 26 Liters of wort (which should be ok) waiting and 3.5 liters of yeast starter going since 28h.

Just one question is rather urgent now:
Will cold crashing and the (partially) decanting help or not?

In your circumstances I would not cold crash. I prefer to cold crash when I have the time to plan ahead, but in a dark Belgian it's not likely to matter taste wise. In fact if your sanitizing processes are less than stellar pitching the whole starter has the advantage that the yeast are active and will outpace any stray bacteria.

Some brewers never cold crash, it's a legitimate technique, but there are pros and cons for both methods.