Beginner control panel help please.. GFCI breaker trips immediately

[Bwerner]

First, thank you to anyone who may be able to help. This is my first panel build and I am in no way electrically-inclined. I did extensive reading before beginning this on HBT and of course, Kal's site.

I had a 30a 240 GFCI breaker installed by electrician to 4 prong receptacle. Panel is wired according to P-J BIAB diagram (post #1 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/list-pj-electrical-diagrams-382286/ ). Red is element on, blue is pid on, switch is pump on/off in below pic.

The problem I'm having is when I plug the panel in, pushing any button trips the breaker. From what I've read this typically happen when hot and neutral are somehow crossed. I've been over the wiring again and again and cannot identify the problem. The switches are wired according to auber ins instructions ( http://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/SW1_manual.pdf ).

Please let me know if I'm leaving out any information, any help is much appreciated. Also, I realize my wiring skills are garbage, I'm trying guys...

 

[Bwerner]

Sorry about the pics, I thought I had rotated them. They should be corrected if you click on them, thanks.

 

[Newsman]

Yeah, I'm not an electrician either, but it definitely sounds like you've got some wires crossed somewhere.

 

[Minbari]

hard to tell with all the spagetti, on the third picture, right switch, is there a black and white wire on the same pole?

Also, does it trip the breaker or throw the GFCI protection?

only thing to do is start troubleshooting. disconnect hot wires from everything, then put them back one at a time until one of them trips it.

 

[Bwerner]

The pictures are pretty much for reference only, I ran out of black wire so white was used in a few areas where it's actually hot instead of neutral.

 

[Bwerner]

Would neutral and ground being bonded at the panel be the reason for gfci tripping or is that how it should be?

 

[Minbari]

The pictures are pretty much for reference only, I ran out of black wire so white was used in a few areas where it's actually hot instead of neutral.

good luck then. no one is gonna be able to tell from pictures what is wrong when you just wired whatever to whatever. there is a reason that wire color conventions exist.

Would neutral and ground being bonded at the panel be the reason for gfci tripping or is that how it should be?

that is how it should be. also it should be the ONLY place that neutral and ground are bonded.

 

[Bwerner]

good luck then. no one is gonna be able to tell from pictures what is wrong when you just wired whatever to whatever. there is a reason that wire color conventions exist.

Fair enough.. I was hoping to at least figure out a direction to head in to attempt to fix this so I'll start with re-wiring.

 

[Minbari]

Fair enough.. I was hoping to at least figure out a direction to head in to attempt to fix this so I'll start with re-wiring.

like I said, disconnect all the "hot" wires from all the devices. turn on the power and make sure it doesnt trip. Then add the devices back in one at a time (turn off power, obviously) then turn on power and see if it trips. at some point you will put the device back in the circuit that trips the breaker and you will know which one(s) it is.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

The pictures are pretty much for reference only, I ran out of black wire so white was used in a few areas where it's actually hot instead of neutral.

Is that a joke? Go get the right wire colors and fix it. You can't troubleshoot spaghetti. And you can't get interwebz help when the colors don't match.

I think I found your problem: you ran a hot to ground. Oh wait, who knows if that black wire is actually a black wire. Maybe it is green, white or red?

 

[Bwerner]

Is that a joke? Go get the right wire colors and fix it. You can't troubleshoot spaghetti. And you can't get interwebz help when the colors don't match.

I think I found your problem: you ran a hot to ground. Oh wait, who knows if that black wire is actually a black wire. Maybe it is green, white or red?

Alright, Jesus.. Point taken. Like the title says, "beginner"

 

[Bwerner]

There is literally 1 wire that's mis-colored for the record.

 

[Minbari]

it shouldnt take long to re-wire it. you might even find your mistake once you have all the correct wire colors in there.

Just a suggestion, try to clean it up a bit too. if you have nice runs of wire and strain reliefs built in , it is alot easier to troubleshoot. There are guys here who are ALOT better at wiring than me, but keeping it clean makes life easier when things go bad.

not perfect, but you can easily tell where stuff goes:

 

[Bwerner]

Thanks for your help minbari, I think I may have found the problem. Can you tell me in this diagram which color should be hot and which should be neutral?
http://www.auberins.com/images/Manual/SW1_manual.pdf
(Wiring according to bottom left)

 

[Minbari]

x1 --> 24
x2 --> 14
hot --> 23
neutral --> 13
load --> 24
load --> 14
(load has two wires)

this will allow the LED to come on when the switch is on, switching the load on as well. Think of 13/14 as a switch and 23/24 as another switch. (just controlled by one button)

You dont want to wire hot and neutral to the same switch or it will short when you push the button.


***********edit, fixed for my mistakes

 

[mikescooling]

IMHO, I'd take a meter and check for short's. AKA, hot's that have continuity to ground or the other hot leg (another term for short), then start trying to isolate the short. I don't need to say, have the power off doing this. be safe you may have power someplace you don't want it like the outside of a pot.

 

[Bwerner]

x1 --> 24
x2 --> 14
hot --> 23
neutral --> 13
load --> 24
load --> 14
(load has two wires)

this will allow the LED to come on when the switch is on, switching the load on as well. Think of 13/23 as a switch and 14/24 as another switch. (just controlled by one button)

You dont want to wire hot and neutral to the same switch or it will short when you push the button.

I guess that's where I'm confused, 13/23 is a switch and you say don't wire hot and neutral to same switch but above says hot --> 23, neutral --> 13 .... What am I missing?

 

[Bwerner]

IMHO, I'd take a meter and check for short's. AKA, hot's that have continuity to ground or the other hot leg (another term for short), then start trying to isolate the short. I don't need to say, have the power off doing this. be safe you may have power someplace you don't want it like the outside of a pot.

I don't have anything plugged into it. I finished the panel and plugged in to the receptacle with no equipment attached to see if it would even turn on.

 

[Minbari]

I guess that's where I'm confused, 13/23 is a switch and you say don't wire hot and neutral to same switch but above says hot --> 23, neutral --> 13 .... What am I missing?

those are internally two different switches. In switch lingo they are called "poles" you have a dual pole switch. So they can be treated completely independent of each other.

What I meant was, dont wire hot to 13 and then neutral to 14. when you push the switch, it will short. bang! pops the breaker.

***********edit, I see your confusion. Stupid fingers. 23/24 is a pole and 13/14 is a pole. I had it wrong, sorry for the confusion.

 

[mikescooling]

on another note, neutral and ground on a 240v is not the same as 120v. These terms are thrown (in the general public) around when it would be more clear to say L1 and L2 and ground.

 

[spkguitar]

In defense of some of the harsh comments; this seriously could be life threatening, for both you and your family. Dudes are just looking out for you.

Panel is wired according to P-J BIAB diagram ...

The switches are wired according to auber ins instructions

Which is it? Not the same.

Something about this does not look right to me. Is this the SYL-2352? If so, you should check the locations of your wires according to the schematic and numbers on the side of the unit. "Up" is not necessarily "up" in this case. The wires need to be attached to the right terminals of the unit to function properly.

 

[trimixdiver1]

An electrician wired that GFCI? I hope you didn't pay him yet. The length of the stripped hot leads are too long, showing exposed wire. Also the shortcut he took when he ran the breakers neutral, while it will work is just poor workmanship. As for your wiring, we understand your new, but NEVER swap colors, at the very least just mark the white wire with black electrical tape. A neater wiring job goes a long way to keep you sane when troubleshooting.

Also it looks like your temperature sensor wiring is close to your power wiring, separate them as much as you can, LV should be run away from power, to keep any interference to a minimum.


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[Bwerner]

In defense of some of the harsh comments; this seriously could be life threatening, for both you and your family. Dudes are just looking out for you.



Which is it? Not the same.



Something about this does not look right to me. Is this the SYL-2352? If so, you should check the locations of your wires according to the schematic and numbers on the side of the unit. "Up" is not necessarily "up" in this case. The wires need to be attached to the right terminals of the unit to function properly.

What I meant was overall schematic I followed was P-Js and I used auber instructions when connecting switches.

I should have also mentioned I used a different PID ( http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=438 ) this was wired according to diagram on the instrument.


I am in the process of rewiring now.. I don't think I will get different results though, even with cleaner wiring, as I am sure all the connections were correct. Unless maybe the sloppy wiring was touching and causing the short..? Seems unlikely that it would trip every time if that were the case though...

 

[spkguitar]

What I meant was overall schematic I followed was P-Js and I used auber instructions when connecting switches.

Why? There is no reason to do that. If you are following P-Js schematic, you should be following P-Js schematic. That specific diagram is for those specific switches.

His switch connections are:
PID power - hot(black) to 23, 24 to 110v of PID. Jump 24 to X2(black). X1 to neutral(white).
Element power - hot(black) to 23, 24 to 110v of contactor coil. Jump 24 to X2(black). X1 to neutral(white).

I know that you probably used P-Js diagram just as a guide when building yours, but to be able to help you troubleshoot your build, we need a diagram of how it is exactly wired. Writing that up might also help you in finding your (possible) mistake.

 

[Bwerner]

Why? There is no reason to do that. If you are following P-Js schematic, you should be following P-Js schematic. That specific diagram is for those specific switches.

Understood.

I am rewiring now according to P-Js schematic.

 

[BigFloppy]

In defense of some of the harsh comments; this seriously could be life threatening, for both you and your family. Dudes are just looking out for you.



Which is it? Not the same.



Something about this does not look right to me. Is this the SYL-2352? If so, you should check the locations of your wires according to the schematic and numbers on the side of the unit. "Up" is not necessarily "up" in this case. The wires need to be attached to the right terminals of the unit to function properly.

Auber wiring definitely looks suspect to me as well.

HAS IT BEEN TAKEN APART?

I'm suspecting it might have been... and has been put back together upside down

 

[trimixdiver1]

By the way, you have a Temperature Controller, NOT a PID. A PID is the algorithm that the controller uses to maintain temperature. It's as bad as calling magazines, clips.

 

[augiedoggy]

By the way, you have a Temperature Controller, NOT a PID. A PID is the algorithm that the controller uses to maintain temperature. It's as bad as calling magazines, clips.

weird... all my much cheaper mypin temp controllers are actually PIDs with PID function... they even have manual mode... didnt think auber would bother making a temp controller without it?

**edit** aubrins claims that it uses PID logic? http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

 

[spkguitar]

Auber wiring definitely looks suspect to me as well.

He said in a previous post that he's not using the 2352, but the SWA-24X2C. Not sure what's going on with that little switch on the alarm, but maybe the OP will post his own schematic.

By the way, you have a Temperature Controller, NOT a PID. A PID is the algorithm that the controller uses to maintain temperature. It's as bad as calling magazines, clips.

I think it is common practice (well... especially here) to call them PID. Auber calls them "PID Controllers" in their menu, and "PID Process Controller" or "PID temperature controller" (depending on which one you buy) as the descriptions on most pages. Even P-J calls them PID in his schematics.

If you were to say PID in regards to a brewing control panel, most here would know what you were talking about. If you said only temperature controller, some might get confused with the STC, Love or Johnson controllers.

 

[Maxkling]

Where is the neutral that goes to your outlet coming from? Breaker or bus bar?

 

[Bwerner]

Okay I have re wired and come up with a schematic.. I am getting ready to test now. Please let me know if you see something wrong.

 

[Bwerner]

Still tripping the gfci...

 

[Bwerner]

Where is the neutral that goes to your outlet coming from? Breaker or bus bar?

GFCI breaker neutral is bonded with ground in main panel bus bar

 

[trimixdiver1]

Pull the neutral feed off the "buss strip" and try it. ( in the panel you built)


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[Bwerner]

Pull the neutral feed off the "buss strip" and try it. ( in the panel you built)


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Okay when I do this the breaker doesn't trip when I push the switches but it doesn't seem to be getting power either... switches don't illuminate and pid doesn't turn on.

 

[ingchr1]

Nothing to do with the GFCI tripping, but what size wire is going from your 30A breaker to the outlet? Is should be at least #10. From the photo it doesn't look like #10, but the photo could be deceiving.

Also, was a new wire run from the panel to your new outlet? Is all wiring to for the new outlet dedicated to the new outlet? Just thinking out loud if it's possible for the problem to be external from your panel, even though the issue happens when turning the panel on.

 

[Bwerner]

Nothing to do with the GFCI tripping, but what size wire is going from your 30A breaker to the outlet? Is should be at least #10. From the photo it doesn't look like #10, but the photo could be deceiving.

Also, was a new wire run from the panel to your new outlet? Is all wiring to for the new outlet dedicated to the new outlet? Just thinking out loud if it's possible for the problem to be external from your panel, even though the issue happens when turning the panel on.

It is #10, the wire was existing from dryer outlet with breaker replaced with gfci and receptacle replaced with 4 prong. Everything was installed by a hired electrician.

 

[ManiacalJ]

Do you by any chance have a dryer outlet at the wall, with a dryer cord to run your element? If so, try running the kettle plugged directly into the wall.

Your element doesn't use the neutral. The lights will, as will the controller. If the kettle works ok direct from the outlet, then the problem is likely your neutral. I had a similar problem to what you describe, and the problem was the neutral was not run through the GFCI, it was direct to the electrical panel, and the breaker would register a fault every time the neutral was used.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Okay when I do this the breaker doesn't trip when I push the switches but it doesn't seem to be getting power either... switches don't illuminate and pid doesn't turn on.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Now reconnect the main neutral and disconnect every neutral from a device, one at a time connect a device (ie switch or light) and determine what device causes the trip. Let us know what you get.

PS, we know the lights were not going to work, we are just troubleshooting

 

[Bwerner]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Now reconnect the main neutral and disconnect every neutral from a device, one at a time connect a device (ie switch or light) and determine what device causes the trip. Let us know what you get.

PS, we know the lights were not going to work, we are just troubleshooting

Okay, progress I think...

I got as far as connecting the switches (tested individually) and both trip the breaker when connected to neutral with nothing else connected (to neutral). I did not try with the PID hooked up directly, I'm guessing this means the short is somewhere in my switch wiring..?