Beginner control panel help please.. GFCI breaker trips immediately

[trimixdiver1]

Okay, progress I think...



I got as far as connecting the switches (tested individually) and both trip the breaker when connected to neutral with nothing else connected (to neutral). I did not try with the PID hooked up directly, I'm guessing this means the short is somewhere in my switch wiring..?

Why do you have a neutral going to a switch? Is for a lamp in the switch? If it's for a lamp, remove the bulb and see what happens. Otherwise the neutral should only be going to the temp controller and the pump and maybe your alarm. Only the hots should be switched. What are the red and blue push buttons for?

 

[mikescooling]

Buy a 5 dollar meter from harbor freight, and use the meter to find your short. As others read this, and they should know having a short like this can be deadly. I'm sorry to be a "safety sally" A little fear is a good thing. I know I'm not going to be Mr popular for posting this. Don't click on the second link if you have a week stomach.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Kn9JlXE5w[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xOtw-ZP3E[/ame]

 

[trimixdiver1]

Buy a 5 dollar meter from harbor freight, and use the meter to find your short. As others read this, and they should know having a short like this can be deadly. I'm sorry to be a "safety sally" A little fear is a good thing. I know I'm not going to be Mr popular for posting this. Don't click on the second link if you have a week stomach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Kn9JlXE5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8xOtw-ZP3E

Relax, were troubleshooting here. The breaker is doing its job, now let us do ours.

 

[mikescooling]

Just like anything else a breaker can fail. Poping it over and over is not good. I don't mean any disrespect. I don't want the OP to die or any other brewer reading this years later.

 

[trimixdiver1]

No need to post that stuff. He has already be chastised.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Just like anything else a breaker can fail. Poping it over and over is not good. I don't mean any disrespect. I don't want the OP to die or any other brewer reading this years later.

Understood, but I myself have said to many on here, if you can't wire your own panel without help from others, you have no business touching anything electrical. The guy who posted his wooden control panel is far more dangerous than this guy. At least it's a UL listed enclosure. The wooden one is a ticking fire starter. I hear you bro, just keeping the carnage to a minimum.

 

[BigFloppy]

The guy who posted his wooden control panel is far more dangerous than this guy. At least it's a UL listed enclosure. The wooden one is a ticking fire starter.

My panel is "wooden" - the only heat being generated is by the SSR's and as long as they are cooled and everything is grounded appropriately, there's no real issues

 

[trimixdiver1]

My panel is "wooden" - the only heat being generated is by the SSR's and as long as they are cooled and everything is grounded appropriately, there's no real issues

It's about its ability to keep the failure of a device or conductor from causing a fire outside its enclosure. A ground isn't going to prevent a catastrophic failure. I've done this for a living in nuclear and conventional power plants since I got out of the submarine navy in 2000. There is right and a wrong way to do all things, flying in the middle may get you far but it's only luck.

There is a reason why the national electrical code is written by the NFPA
National Fire Protection Association

 

[Bwerner]

Why do you have a neutral going to a switch? Is for a lamp in the switch? If it's for a lamp, remove the bulb and see what happens. Otherwise the neutral should only be going to the temp controller and the pump and maybe your alarm. Only the hots should be switched. What are the red and blue push buttons for?

I was following P-Js diagram which shows neutral going to "x1" on each switch and temp controller. It is going to the led indicator in the switch.

The red and blue push buttons are the switches for PID on/off and element on/off. I have them wired accordingly:

23 --> hot "in"
24 --> load "out"
X2 --> 24
X1 --> neutral

These are the push buttons:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=303

 

[trimixdiver1]

I was following P-Js diagram which shows neutral going to "x1" on each switch and temp controller. It is going to the led indicator in the switch.



The red and blue push buttons are the switches for PID on/off and element on/off. I have them wired accordingly:



23 --> hot "in"

24 --> load "out"

X2 --> 24

X1 --> neutral



These are the push buttons:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_32&products_id=303

Ok, I only see 4 places to wire the switch, 2 for the norm closed and 2 for the norm open, where are the lamp terminals?

 

[Bwerner]

Just like anything else a breaker can fail. Poping it over and over is not good. I don't mean any disrespect. I don't want the OP to die or any other brewer reading this years later.

I appreciate your concern

I have seen those videos before and have the utmost respect for the dangers of electricity. Before starting this I read as much as possible and felt I understood enough to step outside my comfort zone to learn a new skill. I am proceeding with caution and am very thankful for the concern and helpfulness of trimixdriver1, minbari, and yourself.

 

[Bwerner]

Remove the leads to the lamps on the switch and report back.

The bulbs?

 

[trimixdiver1]

The bulbs?

Can you remove the light bulb?

 

[Bwerner]

Possibly, I would have to take the switch completely apart to see...

Should I instead remove the jumpers from 24 -> x2 and disconnect neutral to x1?

I was connecting coil neutral through Element switch x1 also, so I would need to connect coil neutral to temp controller, temp controller to neutral bus, correct?

 

[trimixdiver1]

Possibly, I would have to take the switch completely apart to see...



Should I instead remove the jumpers from 24 -> x2 and disconnect neutral to x1?



I was connecting coil neutral through Element switch x1 also, so I would need to connect coil neutral to temp controller, temp controller to neutral bus, correct?

Yes remove wires to X1 and X2

To make it easier, if you have the wire, run a neutral from your terminal strip to each component that needs a neutral.

Also looking at the switch, there is a step down transformer and rectifier each one to go from 120 to 24vdc

There may be some loss that is causing an imbalance and causing the GFCI to trip.

 

[Bwerner]

Yes remove wires to X1 and X2

To make it easier, if you have the wire, run a neutral from your terminal strip to each component that needs a neutral.

Also looking at the switch, there is a step down transformer and rectifier each one to go from 120 to 24vdc

There may be some loss that is causing an imbalance and causing the GFCI to trip.

I thought these were the standard switches that many electric brewers are using. I rewired the neutral wires as you described and the gfci is still tripping. The problem definitely seems to be the switches... Your advice, sir?

 

[Minbari]

Understood, but I myself have said to many on here, if you can't wire your own panel without help from others, you have no business touching anything electrical. The guy who posted his wooden control panel is far more dangerous than this guy. At least it's a UL listed enclosure. The wooden one is a ticking fire starter. I hear you bro, just keeping the carnage to a minimum.

Ha ha, cause no one has wire running through wood in thier house right?

 

[spkguitar]

I thought these were the standard switches that many electric brewers are using.

They are. I use them in mine and they work great. They are switch and lamp in one, which is why they require a neutral.


I was just looking at your home made diagram again; disconnect just the alarm from the "temperature controller" and try again.


Here is a diagram that is more along the lines of what (I think) you are trying to do. Based on P-Js but using the devices that you are using. (the 2451 wiring matches the one you have).

 

[Facinerous]

I've read through this thread and it seems like there is only one thing that hasn't directly been proven yet. I think.

In my opinion the next step I would take to prove that the switches are in fact you problem is to remove the load from the switches and leave the lamps in.

So remove your power out from 24, but leave the jumper from 24 to x2 on both switches and leave x1 connected to the neutral. This sheds the load from everything else and will only have the lamp turn on when you push the switch. Also this gives you the ability to test one switch at a time because you have the lamp on only when the switch is closed.

If everything holds, no trip, then do what spkguitar recommended. Reconnect everything as it should be and remove the alarm wires from the pid. Though I really doubt that is causing your problem it is worth a shot.

This would be my next step to prove the switch are or are not your problem.

Good luck dude.

 

[joehoppy]

Did you ever check the gfci breaker wires to see if they are set up properly. The most common cause of a 240v gfci breaker tripping as soon as power is applied through it is the load nuetral is bonded to the buss bar. It NEEDS to be on the load nuetral of the breaker itself. Very common issue. The permanent white wire coming out of the breaker goes to nuetral buss bar. Nuetral wire from your controller outlet goes to load nuetral on the breaker.

 

[joehoppy]

I think everyone over thought this one.

 

[Maxkling]

GFCI breaker neutral is bonded with ground in main panel bus bar

Thats not what I asked... Where is the white wire landed that goes to your outlet for the panel? Is it on the bus bar or is it on the breaker?

Did you ever check the gfci breaker wires to see if they are set up properly. The most common cause of a 240v gfci breaker tripping as soon as power is applied through it is the load nuetral is bonded to the buss bar. It NEEDS to be on the load nuetral of the breaker itself. Very common issue. The permanent white wire coming out of the breaker goes to nuetral buss bar. Nuetral wire from your controller outlet goes to load nuetral on the breaker.

Thats what I was getting to. You might want to look into getting a refund from the electrician you hired.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Ha ha, cause no one has wire running through wood in thier house right?

Those cables are approved for that use, using wood as an enclosure is almost the dumbest thing I've seen in a while, the dumbest is your comment.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Thats not what I asked... Where is the white wire landed that goes to your outlet for the panel? Is it on the bus bar or is it on the breaker?









Thats what I was getting to. You might want to look into getting a refund from the electrician you hired.

That's what I said back on page 2

 

[Minbari]

Those cables are approved for that use, using wood as an enclosure is almost the dumbest thing I've seen in a while, the dumbest is your comment.

That is your opinion. Been making enclosures out of wood for 15 years. Never had a fire yet. If you dont like my methods fine, didnt ask for your approval.

 

[trimixdiver1]

That is your opinion. Been making enclosures out of wood for 15 years. Never had a fire yet. If you dont like my methods fine, didnt ask for your approval.

Hey I let the whole thing go until your comment about why approved wire is run through wood. Quit playing the victim.

 

[Bwerner]

Before I mess with the brew controller any further I'd like to get this breaker figured out..

I have a 30a breaker with neutral connected to the bus bar. As maxkling asked, it appears that neutral to receptacle is landed on another spot on the bus bar, definitely not directly to the breaker.


Main Panel


GFCI breaker with neutral in back


GFCI neutral 4th from bottom



Edit: will repost pic

 

[Bwerner]

Receptacle neutral

 

[Bwerner]

So much better, thanks!

 

[bu_gee]

Yeah. It looks like you got boned by your electrician. There should be two white wires connected to your GFCI.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Yeah. It looks like you got boned by your electrician. There should be two white wires connected to your GFCI.

Correct, the pigtail that is part of the breaker will land on your neutral buss bar in the panel, the neutral for your panel should be connected to the lug next to the pigtail on the breaker.

Look at the pic, it's a single pole cutler hammer CH breaker, same type as yours, the lug closest to the white neutral is where the load neutral will go. The breaker has to see the neutral and hot so it can sense an imbalance. If the neutral to your panel is connected to the same buss bar as your breaker, your not connected correctly.

Simple fix, just turn off the GFCI breaker, unscrew the two lugs for the hots, trip the damn wire (there is a strip length on the side of the breaker, disconnect and move the neutral from your panel to the lower lug on the breaker, reconnect the hots in their lugs making sure the bare conductor doesn't show like it did. The breaker pigtail is poor workmanship, I would disconnect it from the buss bar and get a length of 10awg and run it from the buss bar down and up to the right side of the panel and connect it via a wire nut.

 

[ingchr1]

Maybe there's something I'm missing or it's not shown in the photo of your panel, but is there a grounding electrode conductor in the panel? There should be a larger ground wire from panel ground to earth ground.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Maybe there's something I'm missing or it's not shown in the photo of your panel, but is there a grounding electrode conductor in the panel? There should be a larger ground wire from panel ground to earth ground.

Jesus, good catch! To the OP, please verify there is a 6awg or 4awg ground wire, it will be bare and larger than the others. Also verify it exits the house in a continuous run to two ground rods that are 8ft apart.

And while your at it, add a ground buss to that panel. Is this a sub panel?

 

[Bwerner]

This is the main panel, I don't think I'm seeing the grounding electrode unless it is one of the 3 main black wires coming in...?

 

[ingchr1]

This is the main panel, I don't think I'm seeing the grounding electrode unless it is one of the 3 main black wires coming in...?

The three coming in from utility are hot, hot and neutral.

I'd get an electrician, not the one who installed your GFCI, come and take a look and properly ground your system.

 

[trimixdiver1]

The three coming in from utility are hot, hot and neutral.



I'd get an electrician, not the one who installed your GFCI, come and take a look and properly ground your system.

Are you in an apartment or multi dwelling house?

I agree, before you start putting electricity in water, get a proper ground. Even though a GFCI doesn't need a ground.

 

[ingchr1]

Are you in an apartment or multi dwelling house?

This would be good to know, I made an assumption that this panel is feed directly from utility, which it may not be.

 

[trimixdiver1]

This would be good to know, I made an assumption that this panel is feed directly from utility, which it may not be.

Yea but a ground is still required. Just may be easier to run if there is an existing code compliant ground system in place.

 

[ingchr1]

Yea but a ground is still required. Just may be easier to run if there is an existing code compliant ground system in place.

Good to know. I thought it would be, but wasn't 100% sure without the code book in front of me.

 

[Bwerner]

Are you in an apartment or multi dwelling house?

I agree, before you start putting electricity in water, get a proper ground. Even though a GFCI doesn't need a ground.

I'm in a single family house... so, there is no ground rod installed?