Beer that ages well?

[skibb]

I've noticed on some of the higher end craft beers like Dogfish Head have "Ages Well" or something similar on some of their bottles. I see that big beer companies and some smaller ones use pasteurization and microfiltering to extend the shelf life of their beers, so obviously these beers would not age well at all. I'm curious - what makes a beer age well? And can you age these beers as long as you would with some wines?

 

[Tonedef131]

I see that big beer companies and some smaller ones use pasteurization and microfiltering to extend the shelf life of their beers, so obviously these beers would not age well at all.

What is obvious here? Filtering the yeast out will only help improve shelf life, yeast at that point in the process are doing nothing but autolyzing.

Edit: To expand a bit more, the two things that have the biggest impact on how well a beer will age are purity and oxygen. The more oxygen and contaminates you can keep out of a beer the better shelf life it will have. Therefore purging bottles with CO2 and pasteurization are paramount, beyond that filtering and keeping it cold are going to help a great deal as well.

Obviously beers with fresh hop flavor will change quickly and not usually for the better with age. Smaller beers with more delicate flavors also tend to age poorly.

 

[skibb]

But i've tried a bud heavy that was over a year old (regrettably it was the only kind of beer in my grandfathers fridge) and it tasted HORRIBLE. I've tried Three Philosophers that was 2+ years old and it was truly an awesome beer to drink. I don't really understand what you are saying - the bigger companies (like AB) do the things you talk about yet their beer tastes like **** if its not fresh (more ****ty rather)

 

[passedpawn]

Research Russian Imperial Stout (RIS) and Inda Pale Ale (IPA) to find out why some beers age well. These styles were developed just for this purpose.

Small beers (low ABV and especially low bittering) don't do well, from ANY brewer.

 

[thedigitale]

I cracked open a '94 Sam Adams Triple Bock last year and it was excellent.

In addition to hops, alcohol is a great factor as well, as it acts to preserve the beer. Generally beers that are going to be aged will have an ABV over 10%, which is why you'll often see beers like barleywine aged, but bitters never aged.

 

[Revvy]

What is obvious here? Filtering the yeast out will only help improve shelf life, yeast at that point in the process are doing nothing but autolyzing.

What????? Yeast are continuing to autolylize in you bottles???? Where the heck did you get that nonsense????

First off there is barely any yeast in your bottles of beer, to cause any danger if that were even the case.

Secondly autolysis is not the natural progression of healthy yeast (dormancy is)...it is rare to even deal with in the fermenter, let alone in the bottle...It is something that panicky new brewers have blown up into some boogeyman...Get over it...quit fearing the yeast.

Besides many bottle conditoned commercial beers exist that are not filtered or pasturized, and even some ADD yeast (like belgians) after killing off the fermenting strain to hide it and again no one's ever talked about autolysed bottles of beer.

And in the case of our own homebrew, in the Dec 07 Zymurgy Charlie Papazian reviewed bottles of homebrew going back to the first AHC competition that he had stored, and none of them went bad, some had not held up but most of them he felt were awesome...We're talking over 20 years worth of beers. And I can assure you he never mentioned the word autlolysis.

And since it was homebrew it was highly doubtful that ANY OF THOSE WERE FILTERED OR PASTURIZED.

Skibb, you will find there are VERY FEW homebrewers who bottle micro-filter or pasturize, and plenty that age and store beers and even vertically taste them..

Yes certain things will not hold up over time, hops and spices may fade. Low grav beers will not taste the best...but higer grav beers from stouts on can and OFTEN are aged and stored..In fact some beers aren't even drank til they've aged a year.

But geez...any idea that a beer autolysizes in the bottle is just total bs.....
Oh my god...NOW we are going to have newbies scared to bottle their beer cause of surperstitious garbage like this....

Go dig up the issue I was referring to and read Charlie's article you will find quite a gamut of beers that he tested...and they all weren't strong ales either...

I've tasted 2 year old bottles of my own beer, and they've all been delicious...some have changed from when they were brewed...many mellowed and smoothed out..but none turned "bad."

 

[Cheeto]

+1 Revvy

I also have a few brews that I am waiting to drink, they have aged for almost 18 months now (Easter 08 R.I.S.)

Along with a few of my "first born" that I am looking forward to tasting !

Honestly I cannot see spending the money on all of that Filtering Equipment needed to strip all of the yeast from my brews, and than go and force carb in a bottle..

but, these are only my opinions...

-Jason

 

[Tonedef131]

Revvy you need to settle down as you seem to get upset any time someone mentions that word. Fact of the matter is that the yeast are doing nothing at that point OTHER (not saying they necessarily are) than autolyzing. Will the tiny amount of yeast in the bottle effect the flavor? Probably not, especially in the kind of beer thy people are laying down. I would never concern myself with it, but it is still happening slowly over time. All I was saying is that those are the primary influences in a beers ability to age well and you will notice seperating yeast was a secondary concern. But if you were to do all those things and then do a side by side with a beer which you had not, the paseurized filtered and cold stored
beer will have held up better.

 

[Tonedef131]

To further expand I would like to remind everyone that we are not talking about you bottle conditioned homebrew that you will be keeping around for a couple years. You have nothing to worry about.

We are talking about the best possible contitions for beer to be kept at for optimum shelf life. There is a reason commercial breweries do all those things. They don't know how the beer will be handled and have to expect the worste to esure a consistant product.

I just wanted to point out that yeast in the bottle do not allow it to age better. Likely they are doing nothing, and if IMPROPERLY handled could autolysize...but are incapable of pretty much anything else.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I cracked open a '94 Sam Adams Triple Bock last year and it was excellent.

Does 'excellent' mean, "tasted like soy sauce"? Because that's what that beer tastes like. Nasty ****.

As far as aging goes, a bottle conditioned beer will always outlast a filtered beer. I'm not entirely sure of the scientific properties that dictate this sort of thing, because there's still work to be done on that, but I will guarantee you that if you took two bottles of the same beer and sat them side by side, you will see that the bottle conditioned beer will age better.

All beer changes with time, and there are certainly beers that hold up better, but with every bottle I've opened that was bottle conditioned vs. a similar and equally good beer that was not, the bottle conditioned beer holds up better. And I might have had an aged bottle or two in my time.

Revvy is right in this case.

 

[Revvy]

Revvy you need to settle down as you seem to get upset any time someone mentions that word. Fact of the matter is that the yeast are doing nothing at that point OTHER (not saying they necessarily are) than autolyzing. Will the tiny amount of yeast in the bottle effect the flavor? Probably not, especially in the kind of beer thy people are laying down. I would never concern myself with it, but it is still happening slowly over time. All I was saying is that those are the primary influences in a beers ability to age well and you will notice seperating yeast was a secondary concern. But if you were to do all those things and then do a side by side with a beer which you had not, the paseurized filtered and cold stored
beer will have held up better.

Autolysis is to yeasts what peritonitus is to humans, it's a specific condition. Everyone who dies doesn't have their intestines rupture and rotten bacteria dump into their bloodstream. NOR does every yeast cell that dies dump the contents of IT'S cells into the beer. If that were the case your preposterous theory would be in evidence, in fact every beer we ever make would autolysize...

Besides Palmer even says this about autolysis..which is in HIS LAGER SECTION ANYWAY!

Luckily, the propensity of yeast to autolyze is decreased by a decrease in activity and a decrease in total yeast mass.

Autolysis is not the INEVITABLE conclusion of a HEALTHY yeast...and it's not something that ANYONE needs to worry about in aging beer....Sheesh

AND YOU have to realize that it is NOT a good idea to bandy that word around lightly...because sadly to say many new brewers believe autolysis is inevtible....THAT"S WHY I GET "UPSET" when the word is cast about....most of us are trying to dispel that "boogeyman" rather than perpetuate it.....

And ESPECIALLY when it is cast about in such a stupid way as this nonsense.....Autolysis in a bottle, my god....

 

[carnevoodoo]

See, if people would have let me punch Revvy in the face, this never would have happened.

Even if I agree with him this time.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Oh, and did someone mention that the yeast in the bottom of the bottle will also scrounge for oxygen? Because it will. Meaning less chance of oxidation in the long run, which is typically the most common off flavor in an aged beer.

 

[thedigitale]

Actually, Champagne is intentionally aged "on the lees" to produce complex flavors that come with autolysis's progression. The yeast sediment in a beer bottle does in fact cause this to some extent, however a beer that is meant to be aged, will use this to it's advantage in order to produce a more robust, complex tasting beer.

 

[Revvy]

To further expand I would like to remind everyone that we are not talking about you bottle conditioned homebrew that you will be keeping around for a couple years. You have nothing to worry about.

And I bet you, the reason he is asking is because he wants to know what he needs to do to age HIS homebrew. If HE needs to "micro filter and get rid of the yeast."

(See 'voodoo I used yeast properly this time. )

And I think Papazian proved it in his Zymurgy article myself......At the most you might want to consider oxygen barrier caps and a high gravity...But micro filter and pasteruize...and worry about *giggle* bottle autolysis....

NAH,

 

[Revvy]

See, if people would have let me punch Revvy in the face, this never would have happened.

Even if I agree with him this time.

Hey I even called my yeastie friends "yeast" just for you.

 

[Tonedef131]

I'm glad we can't have an in depth discussion about certain aspects of beer on this forum because people are scared new brewers will read it and concern themselves with it. Jesus Christ.

 

[thedigitale]

Does 'excellent' mean, "tasted like soy sauce"? Because that's what that beer tastes like. Nasty ****.

Tasted not too far from what it does now back in '94... I enjoy it and it aged well... it's not for eveyone!

 

[Revvy]

I'm glad we can't have an in depth discussion about certain aspects of beer on this forum because people are scared new brewers will read it and concern themselves with it. Jesus Christ.

Well we do have a section for intelligent scientific discussions about such things....It's the brewing science section....

But certain things do induce fear in new brewers....and SOME of us care that MISINFORMATION doesn't get bandied about as fact....

You wanna hear a true story about how misinformation and even conjecture can be a problem?

Once upon a time, a couple years back when the "Olive Oil Oxygenation" discussions were flying around. Some brewer on their very first batch, and not understanding ANYTHING about the brewing process, and after reading about people using 1 drop of oil, thought "Well if 1 drop of oil works, then 1 tablespoon (or whatever the amount was) must work better." And he started an is my beer ruined thread, but didn't mention that he added the oil. And many of us spent a couple days trying to trouble shoot hos problem. FINALLY he mentioned he added the oil....

And of course the beer was ruined, and had to be dumped....And he did it with NO UNDERSTANDING about anything about the brewing process..

So yeah, I get a little concerned when certain things are tossed about....especially stuff with little substance. Especially since I am usually the one who is wading in to the "is my beer ruined because I read something that scared me like autolysis and left my beer 11 days in primary" threads because of that boogeyman.........

 

[carnevoodoo]

I'm glad we can't have an in depth discussion about certain aspects of beer on this forum because people are scared new brewers will read it and concern themselves with it. Jesus Christ.

But you're wrong. Revvy is a little bit much sometimes, and yeah, he's yelling a lot, but what you're saying is just incorrect.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Tasted not too far from what it does now back in '94... I enjoy it and it aged well... it's not for eveyone!

Bleh. I have a bottle of it and I'm waiting to buy some steak so I can use it as a marinade.

 

[beerkrump]

Revvy not yelling unless the font gets really big.

 

[thedigitale]

Bleh. I have a bottle of it and I'm waiting to buy some steak so I can use it as a marinade.

Use it as a reduction sauce. It's actually really good that way.

 

[Tonedef131]

It's not misinformation. You just assume any level of autolysis is bad, not necessarily the case. In the levels it's happening it's likely not even noticable or could be adding a subtle nuttiness.

As someone else mentioned bottle autolysis is desired in champagne and certain big beers and meads. I'll see if I can find the page number where George Fix discusses it.

 

[thedigitale]

As someone else mentioned bottle autolysis is desired in champagne and certain big beers and meads.

Actually my argument that autolysis can be positive in the bottle is saying that both of you are wrong.

But geez...any idea that a beer autolysizes in the bottle is just total bs.....

It does autolysis, but it's not always a bad thing.

Filtering the yeast out will only help improve shelf life, yeast at that point in the process are doing nothing but autolyzing.

Filtering the yeast does not help improve shelf life.

 

[beerkrump]

def - twice you said that the yeasties "are doing nothing but autolyzing". Remaining dormant is something. If all the yeast is doing is autolyzing, how can we scavenge yeast from bottles? Also, you are including information in post #24 that was missed in post #2 that would have helped some one with five posts (the OP) understand the rarity of this issue in home brewing.

Yes, we know Revvy can be verbose and grating, but he is thorough.

 

[ksmeat]

I could be wrong, but I thought there was still a lot of cleaning up the yeast does over time to contribute to the aging. Especially since there is such a small amount of yeast. I figured it would take a loooong time for the yeast to start dying off and breaking down.

 

[Tonedef131]

Actually my argument that autolysis can be positive in the bottle is saying that both of you are wrong.

How's that work? My point was that it can happen in the bottle.

It does autolysis, but it's not always a bad thing.

Yeah I already said that.

Filtering the yeast does not help improve shelf life.

Maybe not filtering in particular, but a centrifuge or other means of yeast removal can be helpful in delicate beers where possible yeast flavor contributions are undesirable.

def - twice you said that the yeasties "are doing nothing but autolyzing". Remaining dormant is something. If all the yeast is doing is autolyzing, how can we scavenge yeast from bottles? Also, you are including information in post #24 that was missed in post #2 that would have helped some one with five posts (the OP) understand the rarity of this issue in home brewing.

Yes, we know Revvy can be verbose and grating, but he is thorough.

Okay, if dormancy is possible the yeast are doing one of two things. But don't assume just because he has a low post count he is inexperienced or uneducated about beer. There is other places to learn about beer other that one forum on the internet.

I will give Revvy credit for not posting a link to one of his own threads in this one...that is refreshing.

I figured it would take a loooong time for the yeast to start dying off and breaking down.

It has more to do with storage conditions than time. Once again this is why these are common practices for pro brewers who are shipping their beers all over the country and will have little to no control over how they will be handled/stored.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I agree with Revvy too. Talking about autolysis in home brewing is pointless since its such a rarity. Actually unheard of in most polls. That's its hardly worth even mentioning to a noob. In fact, I believe that most people 20-30 years ago mistakenly thought it was occurring. What they probably had was infection due to a lack of sanitation or they had inferior ingredients.

The commercial need for filtering and pastuerization is purely for flavor consistency and the variable shelf-life.

Lets not start talking about problems with clear bottles... (Another commercial boneheaded idea)

 

[carnevoodoo]

Maybe not filtering in particular, but a centrifuge or other means of yeast removal can be helpful in delicate beers where possible yeast flavor contributions are undesirable.

Possibly? But this in no way has to do with long term aging. Any beer that delicate should not be aged.