Beer taste sour

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FeLiXXX

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Slovenia-Maribor
Hi.

I have big problem with last 3 batches.
They all taste sour...but realy sour like vinegar.
Beer is clear it have head (foam)...
I'm really mad because I don't know solution for this.
Any suggestions?
 
I your beer tastes like vinegar (acetic acid), it was contaminated at some stage. Most likely with acetobacter, but some other microbes can also make significant amounts af acetic acid.

Three batches in a row suggests a persistent infection in your equipment. What kind of equipment are you using after the boil, and how do you clean and sanitize it?
 
After cooling in kettle it goes to plastic fermentator and after that in keg.
For cleaning and sanitising I use chemipro oxi.
 
I'd suggest sanitizing (after a thorough cleaning) with a dedicated sanitizer, such as iodophor. But a potential problem here may be the plastic fermenter. Plastic, if scratched/gouged, can be difficult to sanitize after contamination is established.
 
I will buy new fermentator and I already order stan san HB.
It could be fermentator because I use them for 4 years now. I guess its time to replace them.
And I will not use dish soap anymore.
May rats are very happy :)
 
Ok...now is getting worst...
I put new keg in kegerator. Carbonised it and obviously testing.
Beer is cloudy and it doesnt have right taste.
Then I bring new fresh keg from basement. It is very cloudy too and taste is not right.
When I put it in keg from fermenter it was 100% clear and it have very good taste. It is apa.
What is going on? What did I missed? This is 5th in the row.
I'm out of beer...I have to buy it in the store :(
 
If it tasted good going in keg ... but is bad coming out I would say you have ruled out contamination in fermentation stage and either you need to clean all your lines / kegs /taps / fittings ... or maybe the kegs were not sealed well?
Good luck , hope you get it figured out.
 
How are you cleaning kegs? Do you have brush for the liquid dip tube? Do you remove all gaskets (incl poppets and PRV) for cleaning?

Also, are you using no-rinse sanitizer? Rinsing oxigen bleach will introduce nasties from your tap water. (Unless you are boiling the rinse water?)

I personally swear by starsan, but there are lots of options.

edit: could be xfer equipment, too
 
I agree with the others, you obviously have an infection going on.

Remember, anything touching your beer (and chilled wort) needs to be a) clean and b) sanitized. Fermenters, kegs, transfer hoses, couplers, fittings, valves, spigots, etc. all need to be clean and sanitized before beer or (chilled) wort gets in contact with them.

Oxygen releasing cleaners (e.g., OxiClean and generics) are good, but may need something extra, such as TSP or TSP/90 to work more efficiently.
Hot cleaners also work better/faster than cold ones. Brushing is important to create needed friction to remove stuck-on deposits, but be careful not to scratch the softer surfaces (plastic, hoses, etc.).

Then I bring new fresh keg from basement. It is very cloudy too and taste is not right.
How long has that keg with beer been sitting in the basement? At what temperatures?

Are the kegs with beer stored in the basement already carbonated or at least kept under pressure?
 
When I had this problem I did a few things. Bought a brand new plastic bucket fermenter (problem persisted). Changed all cold side plastics (problem persisted). Finally, took apart every piece of stainless steel on my boil kettle and every piece of stainless steel in my cooler mash tun and gave every piece the best scrubbing possible, then boiled them, then scrubbed again. You wouldn't imagine the gunk built up that running pbw or boiled water through a pump didn't clear out.

Doing that, along with a new Fermzilla all rounder fermenter and I'm enjoying the best beers I've ever brewed. Now, I scrub and boil all my stainless steel every couple of brews. Just because the beer tasted good out of the fermenter doesn't mean there's not an infection in the beer already. I had good beer going into the keg and a week later it was vinegar.
 
Finally, took apart every piece of stainless steel on my boil kettle
That! ^
The kettle's exit valve is often overlooked or even skipped: "Ehh, that thing gets boiling hot every brew, what could possibly grow in there...?"

As it turns out, bacteria are quite resilient, and can hide inside the valve mechanism, then grow while the kettle is not being used. Pediococcus is notorious for that. So take that valve apart to inspect and clean it's internal components regularly.
After a brew session, at minimum, flush the valve out in both directions, while moving the handle back and forth, to rinse out anything hiding in there. Then let dry between brews leaving the valve open half way (~45° angle), so the chamber behind the ball can dry out.
 
Thank you all for help :)
I always take apart all keg, rubber seals, lines and valves. But I only first washed them with soap then I reassemble keg wash it out with a lot of water. Every time I grease selants with silicone paste (this coul be a problem to).
I dont have brush for tubes...
Then I take one liter of warm water and put 4g chemipro oxi in it. When it dissolved I put it in keg. I fill keg with co² and then I release some oxi from both tubes.
In my basement is around 16 degrees celsius and kegs are on co2 tank with preasure 10 psi. I never had a problems when I have beer in bottles.
Every single time when I change keg in kegerator I completely dissemble beer tap and clean it with oxi. Lines too.
Ok it is obvious that I have something infected. I already get sanitising solution for next time. And I will boil both valves to be shure.
 
Thank you all for help :)
I always take apart all keg, rubber seals, lines and valves. But I only first washed them with soap then I reassemble keg wash it out with a lot of water. Every time I grease selants with silicone paste (this coul be a problem to).
I dont have brush for tubes...
Then I take one liter of warm water and put 4g chemipro oxi in it. When it dissolved I put it in keg. I fill keg with co² and then I release some oxi from both tubes.
In my basement is around 16 degrees celsius and kegs are on co2 tank with preasure 10 psi. I never had a problems when I have beer in bottles.
Every single time when I change keg in kegerator I completely dissemble beer tap and clean it with oxi. Lines too.
Ok it is obvious that I have something infected. I already get sanitising solution for next time. And I will boil both valves to be shure.
Don't forget to do the same to your hot side equipment. Not just the kegs
 
I dont have brush for tubes...
If you can't get long narrow and long "line" or "draw" brushes you could use a wad of fabric, drenched in cleanser, with a piece of string or wire attached to it and pull it through the narrow tubes back and forth a few times. Some Bar Keeper's Friend, or a kitchen/bathroom scouring powder can help to remove more tenacious surface dirt.
 
Another thought...
Are you reusing yeast? An infection in reclaimed, stored, then reused yeast will spread to every subsequent batch.

In regard to Starsan, it's probably pretty expensive where you live. There's no need to make buckets full of it, 1-2 liters is plenty for most purposes. Use a small washcloth to mop onto larger surfaces to be sanitized.

You will need a (small) graduated vial to measure out small amounts of the Starsan concentrate.
When you use RO or distilled water a working solution can last weeks, even months.
 
I dont reusing yeast.
Today I brew
2 batches. First I clean all equipment with oxi. Then I sanitize all with starsan. After boiling I used gloves for everything. I use irish moss and I did litle filtering of worth.
And for first time I use plate chiller for worth...this I amazing...from boiling to 21 degrees in 35 minutes! Wow
Fingers crossed now for 2 weeks...
 
After boiling I used gloves for everything.
That's not really necessary. Just don't touch sanitized surfaces your wort or beer will touch.

And for first time I use plate chiller for worth...this I amazing...from boiling to 21 degrees in 35 minutes! Wow
Plate chillers are indeed awesome in their chilling duties.

But... one and important point of advice:
Do NOT ever let hop particles, or Irish Moss, or fruit pulp, or any other such course materials go inside the plate chiller. Seriously!
If they are allowed to go in there, chances are they will remain there, and are very difficult (read: nearly impossible) to completely clean out.

To avoid getting any foreign material inside your plate chiller (and staying in there, or even plugging it up), it's best to bag all your hops and other additions that aren't very fine powder or dissolve. I mean literally, bag anything and everything, such as hops, fruit, (dried) orange peel, Irish Moss, etc. Use large, fine mesh nylon "hop bags." Stick a few glass marbles or a stainless coupler in there to keep them submerged.

In addition to using bags, it's also recommended to put a good (fine mesh) stainless filter on the exit port, inside your kettle, just to catch anything that made it outside the bags.

Speaking from 15 years experience using plate chillers, and keeping them clean.

Can you post a picture of your plate chiller?
If it's all stainless, no plastic parts, you can bake it in the kitchen oven at 175-250°C (350-450°F) for a few hours to sterilize it. You can stick a couple loafs of bread in with it. ;)
 
I have a Blichmann plate chiller. It's been on the shelf for years. Don't trust it AT ALL.

Fruit flies are notorious for delivering acetobacter to your fermentor. Any chance those little devils are getting into your fermentors?

Also, if your fermentor has a spigot, take a close look at that.
 
Before I use chiler I wash it out with hot water then with oxi and finaly with starsan.
I borrowed chiller from a friend. I will order one for myself. But different one because company which produce this one is closed.
 

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I had a similar persistent infection a few years back. As others have said, take apart and sanitize everything, hot side, cold side, kegs, etc. Replace tubing if at all suspect.

Agree that one has to be careful w plate chiller. After the infection incident, I pumped strong PBW , similar to OXY, though mine for hours, ran some Starsan, and put in oven at 400F for a while. Then flushed again. That pretty much cleaned it out.

Now I backflush it before and after each use. Also all wort goes though fine mesh hop spider before going into chiller, this helps keep hops, trub and bits of grain out of it.
 
Before I use chiler I wash it out with hot water then with oxi and finaly with starsan.
Although there's nothing wrong with cleaning (and sanitizing) your plate chiller right before using it, you really should make it a habit to clean (and sanitize) it right after use. So nothing can and will grow in there over time.

To illustrate my point, look at how narrow and "convoluted" those passages are, and how things can (and will) get trapped in there:
Plate Chiller_Cut in Half.jpg


There are whole threads and many posts on how to clean plate chillers. But most importantly, you need to prevent anything, that isn't a liquid, from getting there. Water, and wort itself are fine. So are hot break and cold break while suspended in the wort. But nothing else is, including (precipitated) sludge from the bottom of the kettle.

Frankly, if I were you, I'd look for another type of chiller! Especially since it sounds like you're have infection problems already. A plate chiller is only going to compound that problem.

Counterflow chillers are very efficient and fairly easy to clean. That said, you shouldn't send hop pulp and such matter through it either.

Or just use an immersion chiller (coil). Easy to maintain and sanitize by sticking it into the kettle with boiling wort 5-10 minutes before turning the cold water on, is usually all it needs. And a dunk or rinse in water, afterward.
 
I had flies make babies inside my plate chiller. Nasty! I used to run boiling wort through it for 15 minutes before I turned on the chilling water. As soon as I turned it on, a platoon of maggots shot into my boil pot. After that, I put caps on it before storage (I stored in a outside shed)
 
I found plate chiller with cooper plates...is it beter or worse compared to stainless steel one?
You mean "copper?"

No, copper is not better, and you can't use an acid (such as Starsan) to sanitize it. Copper is also reactive with many (strong alkaline, high pH) cleaners used in (home)brewing.

I urge you to stay well away from plate chillers in homebrewing, there are better, easier options when chilling wort at that scale.
 
It's made from stainless steel plates, brazed together with copper, which is a very common brazing material:
· 【ROBUST CONSTRUCTION】- This 40 plate heat exchanger features 316L stainless steel sheets, which are brazed together at the edges and the matrix of contact points [...]
My emphasis ^

It looks very similar to mine, which has 30 (stainless) plates, also brazed with copper.

Plate chillers take time, effort, and some planning ahead, to keep them clean and sanitary inside.
Again, stay ahead of potential problems by avoiding hop particles (from both pellets and flowers) as well as other solids going into the chiller, at any time.

The reason to keep the stuff out is, once there's debris inside, it's pretty much impossible to get it all out. And you can't see it. Or even know it's there, the wort just streams around semi-blockages.

If something got in there, over time you may see tiny bits or burnt flakes (after baking) getting expelled, slowly.
 
So my thoughts about immersion chiller vs plate chiller...
With immersion chiller I was always have a problem with whirlpool and worth it exposed to air at critical temperatures between 60-40 degrees for too long. It take over an hour to cool down worth.
With plate chiller worth isn't exposed to air in critical temperatures and I need only 30 minutes for 20 litres to cool down to 22 degrees.
So extra cleaning and care is worth it.
 
if it last for one year or two it is enough for me [...].
So extra cleaning and care is worth it.
Plate chillers should last for nearly forever.
Now a bunch of (hop) trub that got lodged in one or more of the channels during your first brew can cause obstructions and possibly (bad) infections for years to come, if not cleaned out, or better, sterilized (in the oven) between brews.

Read up on how to clean and sterilize these kind of (permanently sealed) plate chillers.

And remember, by design, the channels (between the plates) are in parallel. If a (partial or complete) blockage occurs in one or more channels, wort or water will simply bypass it, going through open channels, and won't be able to push or rinse the plug out. It's therefore almost impossible to remove any such plugs.

In short, you need to avoid potential blockages from happening at all, as I've outlined how to achieve that, before.
 
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I used to use Chemipro OXI for disinfection and sometimes the beer tasted like vinegar. Since I have been using Chemipro SAN or Starsan, even with the same plastic fermenter in which the beer went bad before, this has never happened to me again. I wash the fermenter with hot water and spray it with Starsan and close it well. At the beginning of brew, I open it and dry it well and spray it again with Starsan ten minutes before decanting the wort and throw out the Starsan immediately before decanting. A little Starsan that remains in the fermenter is not a problem.
 
After 2 weeks in fermenter I transferred both to keg. I clean kegs with oxi and sanitise both with starsan.
So far everything is ok...I put one keg in kegerator to 1.5psi to carbonize it...fingers crossed
 
After 2 weeks in fermenter and 3 days in kegerator beer is super delicious:)
No infection at all

I've had several cases like this, and those beers have never improved over time. Maybe you didn't have contamination after all.
 
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